Cruz: It's not clear we would survive without guns

[phrodeau]

Obama: It's not clear we would survive without poetry.



Pick a side, gang.

Netanyahu: It's not clear we would survive without nuclear weapons.

 

[Ishmael]

Uh, another poster in this very thread cited figures from law enforcement backing up those claims. Clearly, they are a part of the anti-gun agenda.

Also, who SHOULDN'T trust the opinion of dubious academics from shitty universities who are commenting on a subject that isn't in their own fields of expertise and just happen to enjoy posing with and among guns in most of their public photos?

Uh, you are still full of shit. What was posted has nothing to do with overall rates or causation. The fact that most murders and suicides are committed with guns is totally disconnected from any correlation between gun ownership and murder/suicide rates.

You are steadfastly avoiding the fact that gun ownership is up, murder rates are down. Both indices by significant proportions. Those two little facts alone put lie to your entire thesis yet you drone on as if those facts don't exist.

Ishmael

 

[BotanyBoy]

Uh, you are still full of shit. What was posted has nothing to do with overall rates or causation. The fact that most murders and suicides are committed with guns is totally disconnected from any correlation between gun ownership and murder/suicide rates.

You are steadfastly avoiding the fact that gun ownership is up, murder rates are down. Both indices by significant proportions. Those two little facts alone put lie to your entire thesis yet you drone on as if those facts don't exist.

Ishmael

Dumbest fucking thing you've ever posted.


ANYTHING to keep that partisan narrative!! even totally ignoring reality!! It's the republican/conservative way!!

 

[BotanyBoy]

So your two sources are a handful of studies and a book by two different gun nuts who both use massive data sets with no meaningful statistical controls to arrive at conclusions that are favorable to the gun industry. OK. . .

Pretty much and he will cling to it till he dies......the US is pretty much fucked until his generation of dip shit dies off.

Well idiot,you've just posted meaningless drivel. Obviously , you just post more meaningless drivel in support of your previous meaningless drivel.

Ishmael

"I DON'T LIKE REALITY!!!"

LMFAO.......

 

[1sickbastard]

Returning to the poster's unsupported thesis that the availability of firearms is directly proportional to the murder/suicide rate is unsupportable given the facts on the ground ie. the increased private ownership of guns vs. the decreased murder rate.

Ishmael

First off:
Thanks for citing those studies. The material looks interesting

However, Setanta did NOT claim firearm availability is proportional to murder/suicide rates.

What he did claim was:

Also, every peer-reviewed study on the subject shows that private ownership of guns and lax gun laws both lead directly to higher rates of gun violence and accidental gun-related death.

I don't know how you read that, but it seemed to me that he was claiming there is a direct casual relationship between having a gun and being injured/killed by a gun, NOT that more guns equal more (or less) crime.

Do you see the difference?

 

[miles]

First off:
Thanks for citing those studies. The material looks interesting

However, Setanta did NOT claim firearm availability is proportional to murder/suicide rates.

What he did claim was:


I don't know how you read that, but it seemed to me that he was claiming there is a direct casual relationship between having a gun and being injured/killed by a gun, NOT that more guns equal more (or less) crime.

Do you see the difference?

That's like saying cars are the leading cause of auto related deaths.

 

[Ishmael]

First off:
Thanks for citing those studies. The material looks interesting

However, Setanta did NOT claim firearm availability is proportional to murder/suicide rates.

What he did claim was:


I don't know how you read that, but it seemed to me that he was claiming there is a direct casual relationship between having a gun and being injured/killed by a gun, NOT that more guns equal more (or less) crime.

Do you see the difference?

Yes, but it's a mixed bag when you cite gun violence AND accidental injury/death all in the same breath. One is criminal the other just stupidity. And even there he's full of shit. This is the graph for accidental gun deaths in the US current as of 2009 as reported by the Center for Disease Control.

http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Accidental-Deaths-chart-2-declining-trend.jpg

So once more we are faced with the paradox of someone claiming increased accidental deaths (gun violence is now off the table having been thoroughly debunked) due to increased gun ownership when the statistics show that just the opposite is occurring.

When you get to the root of it what they're crying about is 'children' that are victims of accidental firearm death. And as tragic as that is those lives are not worth the cost of giving up an essential freedom. It seems that the Supreme Court agrees with me on that point.

Ishmael

 

[BotanyBoy]

That's like saying cars are the leading cause of auto related deaths.

Yes, but it's a mixed bag when you cite gun violence AND accidental injury/death all in the same breath. One is criminal the other just stupidity.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130328004900/glee/images/a/ac/Point_missed.gif

Like rabid badgers they just lock onto derp and never let up.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Uh, you are still full of shit. What was posted has nothing to do with overall rates or causation. The fact that most murders and suicides are committed with guns is totally disconnected from any correlation between gun ownership and murder/suicide rates.

You are steadfastly avoiding the fact that gun ownership is up, murder rates are down. Both indices by significant proportions. Those two little facts alone put lie to your entire thesis yet you drone on as if those facts don't exist.

Ishmael

So that only makes us...what? 8-10 times more likely to be shot than any other industrialized country?

 

[Setanta84]

You might want to compare rates of gun violence and accidental death gun death to the rates of such things in countries that actually have strict gun laws. Even if what you claim is true--it's not--the comparison of rates of gun violence and accidental gun death in the dozens nationwide compared to the numbers the US sees is a really unfavorable comparison for the US.

We have as many mass shootings in a year as most countries have all types of gun-related injury and crime combined.

Even in a Bizarro World where the premise that more guns made us more, not less, safe--which is untrue if you look at any serious study on the subject--is true, it's like comparing Jeffrey Dahmer to a schoolboy who gets in a few fights a year and claiming people really are too hard on Dahmer because he's eating less people.

 

[BotanyBoy]

So that only makes us...what? 8-10 times more likely to be shot than any other industrialized country?

The retard doesn't seem to understand that it's much harder to be shot when there aren't any guns around.....

 

[Setanta84]

The retard doesn't seem to understand that it's much harder to be shot when there aren't any guns around.....

I'm also wondering if he realizes, at all, just how biased the sources he is citing are. He's basically doing the equivalent of waltzing into a debate on drug policy and citing High Times as a scholarly source.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I'm also wondering if he realizes, at all, just how biased the sources he is citing are. He's basically doing the equivalent of waltzing into a debate on drug policy and citing High Times as a scholarly source.

But he doesn't see them as biased because they support his views.

citing High Times as a scholarly source.

Because they are

 

[1sickbastard]

Yes, but it's a mixed bag when you cite gun violence AND accidental injury/death all in the same breath. One is criminal the other just stupidity. And even there he's full of shit. This is the graph for accidental gun deaths in the US current as of 2009 as reported by the Center for Disease Control.

Ishmael

Yeah, but the question wasn't about accidental gun injury/death, it was about intentional gun injury/death.

When it comes to intentional gun injury/death, is there any casual relationship between having a gun and someone getting shot and not having a gun and someone NOT getting shot?

 

[lovecraft68]

The retard doesn't seem to understand that it's much harder to be shot when there aren't any guns around.....

But there always will be....in the hands of criminals. They will always get them and use them.

So until something can be done to get guns off the black market or from any other source by ex cons and maniacs and thugs that shouldn't have them....

I will continue to own guns so that if my house is ever broken into I'm not trying to protect my family with my bare hands or a kitchen knife.

Nut jobs are behind the mass killings and there will always be nutjobs.

Just like there will always be potheads....just a fact of life.

So you keep rolling them and I'll keep loading them.

 

[Setanta84]

But there always will be....in the hands of criminals. They will always get them and use them.

So until something can be done to get guns off the black market or from any other source by ex cons and maniacs and thugs that shouldn't have them....

I will continue to own guns so that if my house is ever broken into I'm not trying to protect my family with my bare hands or a kitchen knife.

Nut jobs are behind the mass killings and there will always be nutjobs.

Just like there will always be potheads....just a fact of life.

So you keep rolling them and I'll keep loading them.

In real life, guns don't actually make you and yours safer. They make you less safe.

Think about it. How many roving bandits have you had to take out Toshiro Mifune-style in your lifetime? None? OK. How many times have your kids got into something they shouldn't have? More than once?

The idea that good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns is a nice sounding fantasy that the NRA and other aspects of the gun lobby use to weaken firearm restrictions and fatten the bottom line of the gun industry. But that's all it is--a fantasy.

 

[1sickbastard]

In real life, guns don't actually make you and yours safer. They make you less safe.

Think about it. How many roving bandits have you had to take out Toshiro Mifune-style in your lifetime? None? OK. How many times have your kids got into something they shouldn't have? More than once?

The idea that good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns is a nice sounding fantasy that the NRA and other aspects of the gun lobby use to weaken firearm restrictions and fatten the bottom line of the gun industry. But that's all it is--a fantasy.

To be fair, in some cases a law abiding gun owner can and will prevent a violent crime from being perpetrated.

More often that not, however, it would seem that a few hours of instruction and popping off a few rounds at a local gun range does not equip the potential gun owner with the mental and emotional fortitude to take another humans life.

Military and police personal undergo very specific, very intense training so they can kill another human, but it's not something natural to most people; to kill as a matter of cold, purposeful deliberation. That's why there's a difference between the crimes of manslaughter, second degree murder, and premeditated murder. Very few states (even Texas) will seek a death penalty for unpremeditated murder (unless the accused is poor and/or not white, but even then it's not easy to ask or convince a jury the accused needs to be executed).

 

[BotanyBoy]

But there always will be....in the hands of criminals. They will always get them and use them.

It's true....but there is strong evidence that it would happen thousands if not tens of thousands times less often if access to firearms was more restricted.

Othere than slogans and talking points do you have ANY evidence to suggest that moar gunz= less gun deaths?

So until something can be done to get guns off the black market or from any other source by ex cons and maniacs and thugs that shouldn't have them....

I will continue to own guns so that if my house is ever broken into I'm not trying to protect my family with my bare hands or a kitchen knife.

Or until America pulls it's head out of it's ass and decides to reform it's cluster fuck gun laws.

Nut jobs are behind the mass killings and there will always be nutjobs.

And they would kill a lot less people if getting a weapon wasn't an easy task.

Just like there will always be potheads....just a fact of life.

really? It always comes down to "BUTT BUTT POT HEAD!" doesn't it?

JSo you keep rolling them and I'll keep loading them.

I'll do both and you'll fucking like it.

 

[Everyday_Man]

Cruz: It's not clear we would survive without guns

Obama: It's not clear we would survive without poetry.



Pick a side, gang.

Hmm, this is a tough one. ... I will consult the bones! (Roll, toss, look) ... it's fifty-fifty.

 

[BotanyBoy]

To be fair, in some cases a law abiding gun owner can and will prevent a violent crime from being perpetrated.

By all but the most biased anti gun sources it seems just pulling a gun sends would be criminals on their way to find another victim far more often than actual shootings happen. Pulling a gun on someone has a MAGICAL ability to chill hot heads and heroes alike right the fuck down.....and that's a consistent effect too I've witness both professionally and as a civilian. The rare exception to the rule being a resulting gun fight....but 99.9% of the time everyone just chills the fuck out.

As much as I agree that fewer guns = less gun crime and death, it's also true that if you're even half way competent with a weapon being armed does have it's perks.

More often that not, however, it would seem that a few hours of instruction and popping off a few rounds at a local gun range does not equip the potential gun owner with the mental and emotional fortitude to take another humans life.

No...you can't really tell who's going to hesitate and who's not though....

I've seen the best trained on the planet choke, and I've seen guys you would swear were doomed joining the infantry squeeze it like a stone cold baus. All kinds of people from all walks of life......

And maybe I am totally biased for the military experience.....but I say you never know until it comes down to that decision and calling it. The repercussions are the same way.....never know who's going to blow their fuckin' brains out because it haunts them so badly or who's never going to lose a second of sleep. Humans are fuckin' weird...kinda random too.

 

[Busybody]

Also, every peer-reviewed study on the subject shows that private ownership of guns and lax gun laws both lead directly to higher rates of gun violence and accidental gun-related death.

Suicide rates are also higher because it's easier to shoot yourself in the brain or heart than it is cut an artery with a razor or hang yourself successfully or really commit to any other form of suicide in general.

THERE ARE NO GUN LAWS IN CHICAGO

right?


18 Shot In Chicago Since Friday Morning …

chi-chicago-shootings

16 of those shot are taking advantage of Obamacare.

Via Chicago Tribune

At least 18 people have been shot, two fatally, in shootings across the city’s Northwest, West and South sides since Friday morning.

One man was killed and another wounded in a shooting in Humboldt Park late Friday, one of three separate shootings in the neighborhood in less than 24 hours, police said.

The shooting happened about 10:50 p.m. in the 1100 block of North Springfield Avenue, said Officer Amina Greer, a Chicago Police Department spokeswoman.

The two men, ages 35 and 36, were inside a car on the block when a gunman approached on foot and fired shots, Greer said.

The two men drove themselves to Presence Saints Mary and Elizabeth Medical Center and were both later transported to John H. Stroger Hospital. The 36-year-old man was shot in the chest and later died from his wounds. Officials had not identified the man as of early Saturday.

The 35-year-old man was shot in the neck. His condition stabilized, police said.[…]

About 9:30 p.m., a 33-year-old man crashed his Mercedes sedan in the West Loop after being shot near the UIC Pavilion.

The 33-year-old was stopped at a stoplight in the 1000 block of West Congress Parkway when someone fired shots from another vehicle. The man was hit multiple times, including once in his head. The man then fled the scene and crashed a short time later in the 500 block of West Van Buren Street. An ambulance transported the man to Mount Sinai Hospital where his condition stabilized.

 

[Ishmael]

To be fair, in some cases a law abiding gun owner can and will prevent a violent crime from being perpetrated.

More often that not, however, it would seem that a few hours of instruction and popping off a few rounds at a local gun range does not equip the potential gun owner with the mental and emotional fortitude to take another humans life.

Military and police personal undergo very specific, very intense training so they can kill another human, but it's not something natural to most people; to kill as a matter of cold, purposeful deliberation. That's why there's a difference between the crimes of manslaughter, second degree murder, and premeditated murder. Very few states (even Texas) will seek a death penalty for unpremeditated murder (unless the accused is poor and/or not white, but even then it's not easy to ask or convince a jury the accused needs to be executed).

You make a valid point. But I can assure you that no amount of training will prepare anyone to take the life of another. Oh, they can prepare you to commit to taking the shot but there is always the aftermath.

I teach the Basic Pistol course at my club and another individual teaches the CC course. Both of us emphasize that taking up a gun against another human is not to be taken lightly and that if you cannot commit to taking the shot if necessary then perhaps the individual should reconsider using a gun at all. The mere threat of the firearm will not deter a determined, or drug addled, attacker. In the case of those under the influence aiming a gun at them may even enrage them further. So we both recommend a great deal of soul searching on the part of the trainee.

As far as the average citizen stopping the commission of a crime via the use of a firearm the instances are far greater than you would imagine. That particular subject has been covered by Dr. Kleck's works and the numbers are eye opening.

Ishmael

 

[Setanta84]

THERE ARE NO GUN LAWS IN CHICAGO

right?

Chicago/Cook County only has slightly more strict gun laws than Illinois in general does and Illinois' laws are pretty much average--i.e., woefully inadequate--in strength. If you need a gun NOW and can't POSSIBLY wait a whole three days to own one and not being able to buy an assault weapon really cramps your style, chances are you shouldn't be in the market for a gun.

If you honestly think comparing a city that dares to have its own assault weapon ban now that the federal one has expired makes an apple to apple comparison to, say, the UK or Japan fair, you're fucking nuts.

16 of those shot are taking advantage of Obamacare.

Uh, what in the fuck does the health care debate have to do with this thread?

18 Shot In Chicago Since Friday Morning …

Chicago has a horrible gun violence problem but using it as an example that gun laws do not work shows both a complete ignorance of why it has that problem and a warped sense of thinking.

Chicago has a huge gun violence problem because the money-loving, nine-fingered ballerina running the city of Chicago did what all of us who campaigned against him warned the city he was going to do and shut down a ton of public schools and other public services and sold them off at fire sale rates to his wealthiest campaign donors. How does that lead to increased gun violence?

Imagine that there are three neighborhoods in South Chicago. One has a public school. Another has a public school. The one in the middle is rough neighborhood that members of the other two neighborhoods both avoid due to drug trafficking and related violence in it. Then Tati Warbucks shuts one of these schools down and sells the property to either a corporation running a charter school that will pay the teachers minimum wage, take all the money the public school got, and pocket the difference or to a developer friend like Penny Pritzker. What happens next?

Why, the kids in one of the decent neighbors have to travel through the warzone neighborhood to go to school! And, lo, some of them are shot to death.

This kind of shit as well as his war on working people is why he faced the first run-off a sitting mayor in the city has ever faced and had to spend nearly all of his campaign war chest to survive it.

What Chicago needs is for the teacher's union to field a candidate who doesn't get brain cancer halfway through the general election cycle to run against the worthless fuck next tiime AND stricter gun control laws.