Desire discrepancies - could this partly explain it?

[LMWM321]

Desire discrepancies are a part of nearly every relationship - even otherwise healthy relationships where there is deep love and respect for each other. ..And it’s usually, though not always, the woman whose libido lags behind the guys. And when guys complain about it here on Lit, there is often a rush to suggest Hormone Replacement Therapy, counseling, etc. for the Woman as though it's mostly because of HER. But what about the guy?

As a kid this idea persisted that men are more visual than women when it comes to sex so wives were expected to tend to their appearance more than husbands. Think I’m wrong? Check out this Burt Bacharach song from 1964, song by Jack Jones. Both hilarious and deeply troubling.

Wives And Lovers - Burt Bacharach, 1964
Hey! Little Girl
Comb your hair, fix your makeup
Soon he will open the door
Don't think because there's a ring on your finger
You needn't try anymore
For wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
I'm warning you
Day after day
There are girls at the office
And men will always be men
Don't send him off with your hair still in curlers
You may not see him again
For wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
He's almost here
Hey! Little girl
Better wear something pretty
Something you'd wear to go to the city and
Dim all the lights, pour the wine, start the music
Time to get ready for love
Time to get ready
Time to get ready for love

In another thread I mentioned a friend who complains about his wife’s low libido. His wife (who is naturally attractive but no more so than he) get’s pedicures twice a month with my wife while this dude (who loves wearing flip-flops) has horrible looking feet w/ long-ass toenails and one nail badly mangled due to fungus. And while I wouldn’t assume she gets her nails done for his benefit, he benefits from it all the same. He gets to have her soft & pretty feet brushing against legs every night while his wife has his cadaver-like feet brushing against hers. And this is just one example; she’s fastidious about makeup, her hair, clothes, teeth-whitening etc.. while he doesn’t seem to care one iota about his appearance whatsoever. In his mind, he's still the hot guy she married (and he was pretty hot back then),

Does the fact that so many women tend to their appearance more than their husband partly explain the desire discrepancy we see today?

I do like the line.. "Don't think because there's a ring on your finger, You needn't try anymore." But I believe it cuts both ways..

 

[policywank]

It does cut both ways. And while men and women are different I think that the differences are often misunderstood and overstated. Women may be somewhat less focused on appearances, but it isn't irrelevant. And to the extent that we like a guy who is a bit rough around the edges that doesn't mean slovenly and unkempt.

But I think that there is also sexual reality. The female orgasm is more elusive than the male orgasm. For guys bad sex is usually considered better than no sex. Not so for women. I hate to say it but often when I hear men complain that their wife has lost interest in sex, part of me thinks maybe she lost interest in sex with him.

 

[LMWM321]

I hate to say it but often when I hear men complain that their wife has lost interest in sex, part of me thinks maybe she lost interest in sex with him.

I think you're probably right in some cases...

Talk to people who work in retirement communities and you'll hear that many women in their 60's - 70's who begin dating after losing their husbands experience a renewed interest in sex - an interest that was long absent with their husband. Why does this happen? I think it's at least partly because they are being courted by men who care about impressing them; men who mind their manners, their hygiene, who dress nicely...men who try to look and act their best; who won't pick their teeth or their nose in front of them, and who brush their teeth before kissing them, etc.. It's not that these women didn't love their deceased husband - of course they did - it's that their husbands long ago became complacent and began engaging in many of the same libido-destroyong behaviors as my friend .

So although the love was still there, the physical attraction was not.

 

[policywank]

I think you're probably right in some cases...

Talk to people who work in retirement communities and you'll hear that many women in their 60's - 70's who begin dating after losing their husbands experience a renewed interest in sex - an interest that was long absent with their husband. Why does this happen? I think it's at least partly because they are being courted by men who care about impressing them; men who mind their manners, their hygiene, who dress nicely...men who try to look and act their best; who won't pick their teeth or their nose in front of them, and who brush their teeth before kissing them, etc.. It's not that these women didn't love their deceased husband - of course they did - it's that their husbands long ago became complacent and began engaging in many of the same libido-destroyong behaviors as my friend .

So although the love was still there, the physical attraction was not.

Not to be too cynical, but it is also possible that the men those women married were never particularly appealing as sexual partners. For some people of older generations sexual compatibility was a low priority, especially for the women. And especially at a young age where women were very much guided more by notions of sexual modesty than sexual pleasure. A young woman who found a nice young man that could provide a comfortable life and for whom she had some affection dared not consider whether he was a good lover.

 

[LMWM321]

Not to be too cynical, but it is also possible that the men those women married were never particularly appealing as sexual partners. For some people of older generations sexual compatibility was a low priority, especially for the women.

Well, that may be true in some cases, of course; that happens even today, sadly. But these are women who became sexually active in the 70s, they are not mail-order brides, nor were they in arranged marriages. I think it's safe to assume that most truly loved their husbands and the majority were at some point sexually attracted to them.

My point is that when you regard older couples at a distance, you often see a woman who cares more about her appearance than the man. This is in evidence in every department store like Nordstroms where the make-up and beauty counters take up as much floor space as the entire men's clothing and shoe sections. And they are always way busier.

It's also in evidence when you see couples dining at retirement homes. The women are usually dressed very nicely with full makeup while her husband is often wearing a track suit or, worse, gray sweat pants. Of course, the reasons women feel more pressure are reflective of our broken, and sexist culture. And it’s quite likely they are not doing it for their husband’s sake. ..But that notwithstanding, in the end the guy gets to sit across the table from a woman who cares about how she looks while she looks back at a guy who has thrown in the towel. And this may in part explain why some women's libidos go dormant while the man's libido soldiers on. And maybe that explains, at least partly, why we see so many "sexless marriage" threads here started by men.

 

[Mittering]

In '06 my wife told me that from then on she was in "mommy mode". To expect less of her.

After our last child in '13, she said she wanted to let herself go during the pregnancy but was worried what I would think. So, I told her we would both do it.

2016 was the last time we had sex. I was told not to make a production of it. I'm the one that chases, hugs, kisses, loves, lusts and praises. I'm the breadwinner but I cook, clean, do the yard, repairs.

I had to be very serious with her lately and let her know I wasn't going to go to my grave never having had sex again. She knows it's her I want but she just keeps putting it and me off.

The only thing left is an ultimatum but I won't pull that until my youngest is old enough to take care of herself.

So, I come here to live vicariously and commiserate.

 

[LMWM321]

The only thing left is an ultimatum but I won't pull hat until my youngest is old enough to take care of herself.

So sorry to hear about your situation. Did your wife ever truly enjoy sex? If not, was there sexual abuse in her life? ..Or maybe a physical problem affecting her libido?

In any case, I'll never understand how someone who loves their partner would deny them the occasional sex they need for their mental health and well-being. It's like someone who is relegated to a wheel chair after a serious injury telling their partner, "Sorry, but if I can't walk, neither can you... you need to be in a wheelchair too." I don't know of anyone who would do this.

 

[policywank]

Well, that may be true in some cases, of course; that happens even today, sadly. But these are women who became sexually active in the 70s, they are not mail-order brides, nor were they in arranged marriages. I think it's safe to assume that most truly loved their husbands and the majority were at some point sexually attracted to them.

My point is that when you regard older couples at a distance, you often see a woman who cares more about her appearance than the man. This is in evidence in every department store like Nordstroms where the make-up and beauty counters take up as much floor space as the entire men's clothing and shoe sections. And they are always way busier.

It's also in evidence when you see couples dining at retirement homes. The women are usually dressed very nicely with full makeup while her husband is often wearing a track suit or, worse, gray sweat pants. Of course, the reasons women feel more pressure are reflective of our broken, and sexist culture. And it’s quite likely they are not doing it for their husband’s sake. ..But that notwithstanding, in the end the guy gets to sit across the table from a woman who cares about how she looks while she looks back at a guy who has thrown in the towel. And this may in part explain why some women's libidos go dormant while the man's libido soldiers on. And maybe that explains, at least partly, why we see so many "sexless marriage" threads here started by men.

I'd like to think that most women were sexually attracted to their husbands at one point. And I think that is mostly true. But it need not be a mail order bride or arranged marriage for it to be one in which the wife simply did not prioritize sexual attraction as a criteria in choosing a mate. That is not to say that she wasn't sexually attracted at all. But it may have not been a strong sexual attraction and therefore faded more easily.

And for many young women of earlier generations (especially those from religious upbringings) sexual attraction was something not really spoken of. I was raised in a relatively conservative religious household. Happily my mother was somewhat more enlightened than the mothers of many of my friends. But I knew lots who spoke of whether a man was cute or handsome, but did not ever speak about sexual attraction. In many cases it was years later that they started to embrace their own desire for sexual fulfillment at which point they realized their husband was not a good match from that point of view.

In any case, it certainly doesn't help if she is taking the time to put herself together properly while he is not. We do hear of women who lose interest and who are criticized for de-emphasizing sex once she gets a ring on her finger almost as if it was a trap all along. I think that the scenario where the man allows himself slip is more prevalent and frankly I don't blame the women. We may not be as "visual" as men are, but we are not devoid of desire for a visually pleasing man.

 

[WeShallUnclench]

Frankly I don't think men overall care all that much about pedicures and makeup and fancy clothes.
I am willing to wager a chubby woman with bad skin wearing baggy clothes posting a pic of her hairy *sshole will get a lot more attention - and genuine praise (not just horny harrassment, though thst is often a big chunk) - from men than if the roles were reversed.

The other half seems more relevant here - the guy in your example has neglected some parts of himself so much it is bordering on actively repulsive, which beyond the physical also betrays a certain attitude.

You might call this "main character syndrome" - one looks at themselves as the hero of the story, not taking into account that they are also a character in someone else's life, looked at from the outside.

Put in a more positive way, men in het relationships might get more sex if they are perceived by their partners as more sexual beings. And not just in terms of horniness, less "I want sex" and more "I AM sexy".
Sex is not very alluring if you feel you are stuck in a script "I am the beautiful thing for your enjoyment". It should be more of a give and take.

I just made that other thread of lesbians often having more orgasms. A part of it is that women have kinda "given up on men", assuming that het sex follows a script that is just less enjoable overall, while with other women they feel more free to explore mutual pleasure.

But even with efforts on the guy's side, there is no guarantee - old het structures are hard to shake. Women tend to have a harder time thinking of men as sexually alluring beings, everything else being equal (hygiene, fitness, etc)* - even men they have been married to for years.

The uphill battle for men is to persuade women that they too are fun and safe and beautiful. Not just because they might have habits that contradict this, but because women are not used to look at them that way.

*EDIT: Note that this does not necessarily contradict "ugly boy, pretty girlfriend" syndrome. A woman might value a man for a lot of things, like the life she is able to build with him, but that does not necessarily include a lot of sex, because again, whether or not she thinks of him as an object of sexual desire is a whole different question.

 

[WeShallUnclench]

But I think that there is also sexual reality. The female orgasm is more elusive than the male orgasm.

unclear - as I said, when women masturbate or have sex with other women, orgasms tend to come somewhat easier.

The issue seems to be more what kind of sex you have, and what you expect of your partner.

Orgasms are certainly less likely if you have thoughts like "is this gonna hurt me, is he just gonna call it a night once he cums, will he even bother with the clitoris, am I just a warm hole to him, urrgh he really should have taken a shower".

But also, and this one is hilariously bad, I have heard some people say when they have sex with men on some level they think about stuff like "do I look and sound pretty" at the cost of relaxing and opening up to pleasure.
(I bet if asked directly, a lot of husbands would prefer if their wives make weird noises but enjoy themselves more and desire more sex)

 

[Dearelliot]

I recall meeting a married woman in her 50s, for paid for sex. She liked sex a lot, especially kinky sex, and liked the idea of $200 bucks an hour and we enjoyed many sessions together. Then came menopause, and she talked to me! "I don't understand it, I don't want sex anymore!" And she quit, she got divorced, she just stopped.
She told me her whole world changed and she hated it.

 

[WeShallUnclench]

I recall meeting a married woman in her 50s, for paid for sex. She liked sex a lot, especially kinky sex, and liked the idea of $200 bucks an hour and we enjoyed many sessions together. Then came menopause, and she talked to me! "I don't understand it, I don't want sex anymore!" And she quit, she got divorced, she just stopped.
She told me her whole world changed and she hated it.

Generally speaking, there can be tons of reasons for differences in libido. Often changing over the course of one's life. Bodily changes like menopause can be a big deal.

That's an important caveat to this entire thread, really.

 

[LMWM321]

@policywank ; @WeShallUnclench ; @Dearelliot

All great contributions to the convo, thanks..

Bodily changes like menopause can be a big deal.

This is true, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, there are women who quit sex at menopause then have a renewed interest in it once they begin dating after their husband passes. These are women in their 60's and 70's. And it's not just to lock in a provider, b/c many of these women at this very expensive retirement home are already set financially.

I'm beginning to think that maybe women are naturally more non-monogamous than men. That after years of sex with the same man they tend to lose interest in sex. ..But have a renewed interest when they can seek sex from other men.

In any case, I would love for an anthropologist to explain to me why humans still crave sex long after it's possible or practical to have children. ..There must be a reason why we continue to want it.

 

[Dearelliot]

Not saying I'm right, but I have met a few older women when I was young and it wasn't sex they wanted, it was companionship, and wanting to feel young again, and they were willing to fuck to get it.

 

[BongoGal]

In any case, I would love for an anthropologist to explain to me why humans still crave sex long after it's possible or practical to have children. ..There must be a reason why we continue to want it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that physical pleasure may have something to do with it.

 

[LMWM321]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that physical pleasure may have something to do with it.

Haha... Yes, I guess that would explain it.

I guess what I'm asking is, "Why does it continue to feel so good." But in any case I'm sure glad that it does. For me and my wife.

 

[policywank]

Haha... Yes, I guess that would explain it.

I guess what I'm asking is, "Why does it continue to feel so good." But in any case I'm sure glad that it does. For me and my wife.

Why wouldn't it continue to feel good? Even if enjoying sex is our body's way of encouraging procreation it does not follow that we would cease to enjoy it once procreation is no longer possible.

 

[policywank]

Frankly I don't think men overall care all that much about pedicures and makeup and fancy clothes.
I am willing to wager a chubby woman with bad skin wearing baggy clothes posting a pic of her hairy *sshole will get a lot more attention - and genuine praise (not just horny harrassment, though thst is often a big chunk) - from men than if the roles were reversed.

The other half seems more relevant here - the guy in your example has neglected some parts of himself so much it is bordering on actively repulsive, which beyond the physical also betrays a certain attitude.

You might call this "main character syndrome" - one looks at themselves as the hero of the story, not taking into account that they are also a character in someone else's life, looked at from the outside.

Put in a more positive way, men in het relationships might get more sex if they are perceived by their partners as more sexual beings. And not just in terms of horniness, less "I want sex" and more "I AM sexy".
Sex is not very alluring if you feel you are stuck in a script "I am the beautiful thing for your enjoyment". It should be more of a give and take.

I just made that other thread of lesbians often having more orgasms. A part of it is that women have kinda "given up on men", assuming that het sex follows a script that is just less enjoable overall, while with other women they feel more free to explore mutual pleasure.

But even with efforts on the guy's side, there is no guarantee - old het structures are hard to shake. Women tend to have a harder time thinking of men as sexually alluring beings, everything else being equal (hygiene, fitness, etc)* - even men they have been married to for years.

The uphill battle for men is to persuade women that they too are fun and safe and beautiful. Not just because they might have habits that contradict this, but because women are not used to look at them that way.

*EDIT: Note that this does not necessarily contradict "ugly boy, pretty girlfriend" syndrome. A woman might value a man for a lot of things, like the life she is able to build with him, but that does not necessarily include a lot of sex, because again, whether or not she thinks of him as an object of sexual desire is a whole different question.

I think that women in lesbian relationships do tend to orgasm more than women in heterosexual relationships. And I suspect that has to do with being more in tune with one another. However, even then women do not orgasm as consistently as men. In any case, my point was that sex is not as consistently good (or even satisfactory) for women as it is for men. So, the potential to lose interest in sex or have less interest in sex is increased because the scenario where the sex available to them is just unappealing is increased.

 

[LMWM321]

Frankly I don't think men overall care all that much about pedicures and makeup and fancy clothes.
I am willing to wager a chubby woman with bad skin wearing baggy clothes posting a pic of her hairy *sshole will get a lot more attention - and genuine praise (not just horny harrassment, though thst is often a big chunk) - from men than if the roles were reversed.

Well, I'm not sure I agree with the hairy *sshole bit, but bear in mind that there are probably 50 times more men checking out nude pictures of women on the internet than vice versa.

I'm only trying to point out that any man who wants to keep his Sex life rolling should be as attentive to his own appearance as he expects his wife to be. That whole "Men are more visual" notion strikes me as a trope contrived by men who wanted to be able to let themselves go while expecting their wife's to maintain "their girly figure" - a term that anyone over the age of 50 has heard hundreds of times and for which there is no male equivalent.

Men got away with this because they ruled the roost. But that's changing. On my block there are 6 guys whose wive's are the primary bread-winners - and 3 of them are stay-at-home Dads. ..And I've noticed it's THEY who are always going to the gym and to yoga trying to maintain their appearance. Perhaps they've heard the above song and know the inverse can be true - that there are handsome men at the office and their wife's eyes might wander if THEY put on a few too many pounds. Turn about is fair play, as they say

 

[Mike302]

I made some alterations.

HUSBANDS AND LOVERS
Hey! Big guy
Comb your hair, groom your face
Soon she will open the door
Don't think because there's a ring on your finger
You needn't try anymore
For husbands should always be lovers too
Run to her arms the moment she comes home to you
I'm warning you
Day after day
There are men at the office
And men will always be men
Don't send her off with your bad attitude
You may not see her again
For husbands should always be lovers too
Run to her arms the moment she comes home to you
She's almost here
Hey! Big guy
Better wear something smart
Something you'd wear to go to the city and
Dim all the lights, pour the wine, start the music
Time to get ready for love
Time to get ready
Time to get ready for love

 

[Mike302]

So sorry to hear about your situation. Did your wife ever truly enjoy sex? If not, was there sexual abuse in her life? ..Or maybe a physical problem affecting her libido?

In any case, I'll never understand how someone who loves their partner would deny them the occasional sex they need for their mental health and well-being. It's like someone who is relegated to a wheel chair after a serious injury telling their partner, "Sorry, but if I can't walk, neither can you... you need to be in a wheelchair too." I don't know of anyone who would do this.

Yea, completely unreasonable:

"I'm not having sex with you, and I don't allow you to have sex with anyone else, either." Fuck. That. Bye.

 

[Mike302]

Could probably merge these threads, eh?

My wife and I keep in good shape. I want her to enjoy looking at me and I want to stay healthy for her. I want her to believe that other women find me desirable in some way.
We also both work and that keeps us busy, but I believe courting never ends. We treat eachother like great friends because that's what we want to be.

I'm not wealthy, especially handsome, not tall, no status or power over others, and not super talented. I'm quite an average guy as far as all of that goes.

She's the Queen, I'm the Knight. Part masculine man and part horse. I provide as best I can, protect her, and pleasure her how she wants when she wants. Adoring her is another top priority for me.

As a man-horse, I do require care, and that's part of her responsibilities. She takes care of me and does her best to satisfy my physical / sexual needs. She allows me to service and adore her, appreciates it, and trains me how to do it better.

We understand our roles and understand what might happen if we don't fulfill them. It wasn't always the system we had, or perhaps we didn't fully understand it, but we've been together over 25 years now, happily.

 

[WeShallUnclench]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that physical pleasure may have something to do with it.

Also, it makes sense to maintan it as a bonding ritual (sometimes literally).

 

[LMWM321]

Could probably merge these threads, eh?

Yep.. ..probably should. I did it because the first wasn't getting any replies. So I re-wrote and posed the question in a different way. I guess I was just impatient.

Your contributions to this and the other have been great ..And I love your re-write of the Burt Bacharach song! Fucking perfect. And it's how every guy should approach every day. ..Believing your in competition with other men for your own wife's attention is healthy, I think.

 

[Mike302]

I agree a lot of problems are caused by guys not pursuing or adoring their wives like they used to while responsibilities pile up on her.

Then the men don't help around the house, don't communicate well, and let themselves go.

Stress builds, the sex stops, causing more stress. He blames her, she blames him, and the whole time the man expects to "hold frame" and be the "leader".

On top of that you can often add the woman having higher education and a higher income!

Why the hell would she stay with that guy?

I've had many women (I have a good number of guy and girl friends) tell me about having affairs or their friends having affairs and it seems to always be about the reasons we've talked about it. The man has just become a room mate and they are usually working on the best way to leave him. Often, they are actually scared of what he might do. That keeps alot of them married. But she's still going get adored by someone else outside of the house. I tell them, "Good for you. But you should try to get out when you can for your own mental health."

They don't REALLY want to cheat or leave. They just feel they are in a situation that can't end without some pain. Just as a man feels pain without sex, a woman feels pain without love, adoration, and friendship towards her.

I know my wife's love language and I want to be the best husband I can be for her. I also want to be so appreciated so she can't imagine life without me. Even as a sub I do have needs to be satiated if she wants me to stay under her.