Do you believe in God?

[Homburg]

Buddhist scholar Robert Thurman (Uma's dad) translates other attempts to translate Om Mani Padme Hum to sum up what it means when it is used, for example, when a being dies "I am filled with compassion for all that are suffering and thus is the way of the world".


Rather like Kurt Vonnegut's "So it goes".

In some places in Tibet they chop up the dead and toss the chunks to the vultures. So it goes.

I've always thought that sky burial was the coolest way to go.

--

I'm going to assume I'm misunderstanding you. You are not really suggesting that people who do not believe in "god's hand in evolution" are unable to form independent thought and extrapolate from what they read, are you? You are not suggesting that such people blindly follow exactly what they see? Because I believe 100% in evolution that did NOT involve "god" - like I said, I don't believe in "god" - but I do not consider myself a "literal-minded reader". I have considered the evidence, and I do not believe that any higher power of any kind was involved in evolution.

FULL STOP. I am NOT advocating intelligent design. I am arguing AGAINST it as an educational concept. I think it is idiotic to demand that ID be taught in schools alongside Evolution Theory.

What I was trying to argue here was that I do not understand why religious people have problems with evolution, and why they see it as contrary to creation or religious beliefs. Why must god work in spontaneous induction, as opposed to organic change?

Excuse me? What the fuck? This is about as insulting as I've seen you be, ever. My atheism is not a "personal" thing but your attacks on atheists, myself included, I take personally. I must be misunderstanding you here, too, because I find this wildly offensive and I know you're not that grotesque (gorillas aside).

I must really be misunderstanding you here. I can't believe what I'm reading, so I know I must be wrong.

*facepalm*

Did you read the earlier posts where someone else posited the difference between "active" and "passive" atheism? "Passive" atheists find no evidence to support it and thus do not believe, while "active" atheists take a lack of support as some sort of proof of non-existence, and tend to proselytise that idea.

I'm sorry that it insults you, but most people that I've met that were Atheist Crusaders, had emotional baggage that motivated them, not pure logic as is so often claimed. They were rebelling against their parent's and upbringing or whatever. The ones that aren't fire and brimstone have been, in my experience, less likely to arrive at their non-belief for misanthropic reasons.

And I am referring to anecdotal experience as someone who was an Atheist Crusader, and is now a plain old non-believer. If my experience insults you, I apologise. It is still my experience though.

And my "attacks" aren't aimed at "athiests". They're intended to comment on crusader assholes that happen to call themselves "athiests" and use it as a club. If that descriptor fits you, I can understand why you'd feel insulted. I doubt that it does. You're pretty damned tolerant.

--

According to a couple of my books, one possible (and common) translation is "Hail to the Jewel in the Lotus."

Om of course is the untranslatable seed syllable. Mani is loosely translated as jewel or treasure; the implication is that in contemplating the Lotus we will find inside it the "key" (Gk. cleito, root word of clitoris; Sk. ku-, root syllable of the words cave, cumulus, church, cucullate and cocaine, among others) to enlightenment. Padme or Padma is usually translated as Lotus, with all its lovely feminine implications, as well as the idea that the universe is merely a lotus blossom in the sacred and eternal belly button of Brahma.

And Hum rhymes with Yum.

On planet bijou, we use the translation "I actively adore the little jewel inside your Lotus, baby. YUM."

Hope that helps.

Given that the phrase is intended to be free of independent meaning, just about any translation in keeping with the meme works.

 

[MisterSir]

I'm going to assume I'm misunderstanding you. You are not really suggesting that people who do not believe in "god's hand in evolution" are unable to form independent thought and extrapolate from what they read, are you?

I think he's talking about Christians - i.e. only the most orthodox, single-minded Christians could look at evolution and flat out deny even the possibility that God could have had a hand in it. Seems fair to me.

...or, you know, I could just let the guy himself explain. Makes more sense.

 

[Homburg]

I think he's talking about Christians - i.e. only the most orthodox, single-minded Christians could look at evolution and flat out deny even the possibility that God could have had a hand in it. Seems fair to me.

...or, you know, I could just let the guy himself explain. Makes more sense.

Heh, spot on, as you probably see now. Just said in a factor of ten less words than I said it in.

 

[JMohegan]

The ONLY thing worth watching "The Mist" for - "I believe in God too, lady, but I don't think he's the bloodthirsty asshole you make him out to be."

Best exchange re God, in all of film:


Dorleac: And if you're thinking just now 'Why me, oh God?' the answer is: God has nothing to do with it. In fact, God is never in France this time of year.

Edmond: God has everything to do with it. He's everywhere. He sees everything.

Dorleac: Alright. Let's make a bargain, shall we? You ask God for help and I'll stop the moment he shows up.

 

[Recidiva]

Best exchange re God, in all of film:


Dorleac: And if you're thinking just now 'Why me, oh God?' the answer is: God has nothing to do with it. In fact, God is never in France this time of year.

Edmond: God has everything to do with it. He's everywhere. He sees everything.

Dorleac: Alright. Let's make a bargain, shall we? You ask God for help and I'll stop the moment he shows up.

Best novel version:

"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of his own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players, to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time." - Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman - "Good Omens"

 

[MisterSir]

Heh, spot on, as you probably see now. Just said in a factor of ten less words than I said it in.

Which is weird, normally I'm the one stretching simple facts into multi-paragraphed essays complete with footnotes and references.

 

[WriterDom]

About half of Americans believe in evolution. Since about 85% are religious you have a lot of religious people who do. I believe a lot of these ID people are southern Baptists who take a very literal view of the bible. Personally I think the "young earth" people are nuts. What's a day to God? A god day could be 50 million years.

And if in fact God did whisper all this stuff to someone, he was smart to lie. You really want to tell people 2000 years ago they came from monkeys? No, you'd make up a nice story. Taking a rib out of Adam and making Eve. Running around all naked and happy until the stupid bitch bit the apple.

 

[Etoile]

I see now that I misread, panicked, and made an ass of myself. My sincerest apologies. At least I kinda knew I had it wrong! And you're quite right, I am not the crazy type, I am the tolerant type. I just misunderstood and overreacted.

apologies for not quoting; blackberry doesn't play nice with quotes

 

[Homburg]

I see now that I misread, panicked, and made an ass of myself. My sincerest apologies. At least I kinda knew I had it wrong! And you're quite right, I am not the crazy type, I am the tolerant type. I just misunderstood and overreacted.

apologies for not quoting; blackberry doesn't play nice with quotes

No, not at all. I really wasn't all that clear. It was my fault for assuming that people were going to read the posts en toto as opposed to trying to make sure I was being crystal clear. It's cool, really.

*hugs*

 

[rida]

I've always been attracted to the idea of reincarnation. That we are on earth to learn lessons. To obtain perfection. And karma. The guy who cheated people out of billions will see some horrible poverty for many lifetimes.

I'm on the fence about this. Many of the things I thought possibly couldn't exist without reincarnation I am rethinking into "cellular memory" and the idea that cells carry a lot more information than we thought/think.

It seems okay for me to think that humans might be prone to reincarnation, but when I try to put it in terms of "will the ants in my back yard be reincarnated" or "will my heart muscles, that work their assess off every day, go to heart muscle heaven" - my thoughts seem to be more egocentric and typically human.

I consider it a cycle of continuing energy and data that biologically isn't well understood.

The fact that people getting organ transplants now, that somehow have memories of previous inhabitants...now that's just cool.

It would be nice to know that desperately impoverished people somehow deserved the misery, I suppose.

But would this mean we shouldn't help the unfortunate? Would feeding the hungry on earth be like taking a glass of water to people roasting in Hell? Would this piss off the Administrator of Divine Retribution somehow?

In most of those belief systems, you cannot directly affect the karma of others, just your own. So offering aid to those in need in no way harms those folk karmically, nor does it somehow impinge on the cosmic scales that set them where they are.

Their situation is not punishment, so much as opportunity to learn a much needed lesson. That painful life is no so much "You fucked up, so suck on this for a lifetime," as it is "You failed to learn in your previous lifetime, so let's make the lesson a bit more immediate and clear."

--

Many folk that are "high on the hog" are also desperately unhappy, in therapy, medicated for depression, etc. It is likely that they are there because they needed to learn a lesson in that as well - that material items and excess bring no joy.


No, worse than that - be awful and you will keep coming back as a human. Remember, the worst punishment is sentience because you are aware of how bad it is. The ant blissfully goes on about its' small life blessedly unaware of mortgage crises, wars, and bad porn.


Religion was the initial method of societal control and pacification. It was not until later that we invented government and economy.

ps - why does Christianity have a special word for unmerited good stuff from God

but not a special word for unmerited suffering?

Buddhism has a word for that - "life"

Yep. The above pretty much summarize my thinking.

Just one addendum to the question of (G)god: we are part of it. realizing that is our lesson.

2. After a run of lifetimes when your learning is finished you "return" to knowing that you are and have always been "The One" along with everyone else.

(so since I know it, why I keep on being coming back down here? well ... I sort of cannot shut up and my constant babbler ruins the meditation and peace of the other illuminated souls so ... they always kick me back down here )


ETA: thank you and sorry for borrowing all your typing instead of making my own

 

[Kajira Callista]

We haven't had a poll in a while.

yes .

 

[eastern sun]

You are free to define your own god. Or Goddess for that matter. Or have multiple gods. The choice is between that and no higher power or afterlife. Of being completely on our own to be eaten by bugs and return to the soil.

I want it all. One overarching consciousness of which I am a miniscule little bit. Lots of gods and goddesses and saints and sinners to call on for guidance and support. And then the opportunity to be completely on my own in this earthly realm with just the concepts of these deities, ultimately responsible for my actions and my decisions, until this body dies, feeds the bugs, and returns to the soil.

I do act like I'll be held accountable at some point for the karmic residue of my life. I've always needed to be accountable to someone to get anything accomplished.

(I've enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks to everyone who's posted. . .)

 

[Netzach]

Buddhist scholar Robert Thurman (Uma's dad) translates other attempts to translate Om Mani Padme Hum to sum up what it means when it is used, for example, when a being dies "I am filled with compassion for all that are suffering and thus is the way of the world".


Rather like Kurt Vonnegut's "So it goes".

In some places in Tibet they chop up the dead and toss the chunks to the vultures. So it goes.

I have seen a video piece of this very thing called "sky burial" documenting the ritual. The vultures are the size of sheep - they are immense. It's grim, unbeautiful, and stark. Chop chop, toss, rip squawk. Up we go. Poop you out eventually somewhere.

I'd love to go out thus.

 

[Homburg]

I have seen a video piece of this very thing called "sky burial" documenting the ritual. The vultures are the size of sheep - they are immense. It's grim, unbeautiful, and stark. Chop chop, toss, rip squawk. Up we go. Poop you out eventually somewhere.

I'd love to go out thus.

Exactly. It struck me as both visceral, and, in its' own way, incredible. So, if I have my choice, it's either chop me up and feed me to big freaky vulture, or set me ablaze on my longship and push it out to sea. Oven-baked cremation is dull, and burial is a frightful waste of space, and toxic to boot.

 

[Recidiva]

Exactly. It struck me as both visceral, and, in its' own way, incredible. So, if I have my choice, it's either chop me up and feed me to big freaky vulture, or set me ablaze on my longship and push it out to sea. Oven-baked cremation is dull, and burial is a frightful waste of space, and toxic to boot.

It's a certain type of extreme lack of sentimentality that I find interesting. I like the work of Andy Goldsworthy also for that "sweat, cry and suffer and then let it go" art.

But in the end, all the art and the sand mandalas, beautiful as they are...are there to deny the sweating, crying and suffering. And I prefer to be attached at times.

If I'm going human, I'm goin' all the way.

But monks don't have kids, and there's a reason for that.

I'll let go of life when I'm done with it. While I'm here, I'm grabbing some.

My daughter wants to be thrown into a volcano when she dies. I've adopted that idea.

 

[JMohegan]

We interrupt the above macabre exchange to laugh at former Ohio Secretary of State and disenfranchiser of '04 voters Ken Blackwell, who, in the wake of the GQ debacle, said:

“Chairman Steele needs to reread the Bible, the U.S. Constitution and the 2008 GOP Platform.”

That's quite a trilogy there, Kenny. So sorry you lost to Ted.

 

[Shankara20]

And I prefer to be attached at times.

attached to our attachment are we, Grasshopper?

 

[Homburg]

Macabre? Pfft, we're just talking about chopping up people and feeding them to vultures. Nothing macabre about that...

 

[midwestyankee]

Exactly. It struck me as both visceral, and, in its' own way, incredible. So, if I have my choice, it's either chop me up and feed me to big freaky vulture, or set me ablaze on my longship and push it out to sea. Oven-baked cremation is dull, and burial is a frightful waste of space, and toxic to boot.

The oven may be the most convenient means. Regardless, I plan to make my own little box. Will dovetail together some well-figured cherry and make a bottom and top from walnut. Simple, Shaker-like in its elegance if I can pull it off. Toss a few handfuls into the water off the coast of Maine, drop some into the ground at Pebble Beach, and I'll be a happy camper.

 

[Shankara20]

We interrupt the above macabre exchange to laugh at former Ohio Secretary of State and disenfranchiser of '04 voters Ken Blackwell, who, in the wake of the GQ debacle, said:

“Chairman Steele needs to reread the Bible, the U.S. Constitution and the 2008 GOP Platform.”

That's quite a trilogy there, Kenny. So sorry you lost to Ted.

If the religion of my youth can do away with Limbo in one-fell-swoop I guess the GOP can change it's fundamental truths as well....

 

[Homburg]

The oven may be the most convenient means. Regardless, I plan to make my own little box. Will dovetail together some well-figured cherry and make a bottom and top from walnut. Simple, Shaker-like in its elegance if I can pull it off. Toss a few handfuls into the water off the coast of Maine, drop some into the ground at Pebble Beach, and I'll be a happy camper.

Well, my current, long-standing wishes, known by everybody in my family, is cremation. Scatter the ashes some place important to me (the countryside around Grandfather Mountain comes to mind, or just my back yard) and I'll be a happy pile of ash and bone fragments.

But sky burial is still so much cooler.

 

[midwestyankee]

Well, my current, long-standing wishes, known by everybody in my family, is cremation. Scatter the ashes some place important to me (the countryside around Grandfather Mountain comes to mind, or just my back yard) and I'll be a happy pile of ash and bone fragments.

But sky burial is still so much cooler.

Indeed. Wouldn't mind going out the way that Tommy Lee Jones' character did in Space Cowboys, but that's not high on the list of likely options.

 

[Shankara20]

The oven may be the most convenient means. Regardless, I plan to make my own little box. Will dovetail together some well-figured cherry and make a bottom and top from walnut. Simple, Shaker-like in its elegance if I can pull it off. Toss a few handfuls into the water off the coast of Maine, drop some into the ground at Pebble Beach, and I'll be a happy camper.

Except for the price of land at Pebble Beach it might all be doable



I want to be wrapped, un-embalmed, in my old Pendelton wool chiefs robe and dropped into the ground so my organic material can return to Coatlique (Aztec mother earth and goddess of life and death)

But I will in all likelihood be burned up - wonder if the find much piercing jewelry when they gather up ashes?

 

[JMohegan]

If the religion of my youth can do away with Limbo in one-fell-swoop I guess the GOP can change it's fundamental truths as well....

In theory, yes. But it doesn't look like it's gonna be today.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm still afraid of death. Discussing how I'll go or the disposal of my body doesn't appeal to me.