Do you believe in God?

[WriterDom]

It says a lot to our level of tolerance to be about equally divided but not letting the thread morph into a flame war.

 

[Recidiva]

It says a lot to our level of tolerance to be about equally divided but not letting the thread morph into a flame war.

I've noticed that.

I remember trying to start a thread about sex and religion and masochism a bit back.

A lot of the thread was about how I was just trying to insult people. I wasn't. It's nice to see some of the same folks not saying the same things.

 

[00Syd]

It says a lot to our level of tolerance to be about equally divided but not letting the thread morph into a flame war.

Completely. I came back to this thread after a day and 6 pages and fully expected to see a flaming car wreck and was pleasantly surprised to read a polite conversation instead.

 

[Netzach]

I'm not the most observant Jew in the world, but I spend a lot of time debating theology with some who are, so I thought I'd add in a bit more complication to the discussion:

In addition to a lack of a hell, Judaism is also rather vague on the concept of a heaven. The concept of "the world to come," as judaism refers to it, is considered by some as a heaven, and by some as a resurrection in the messianic age.

As far as the afterlife's influence on Jewish law, there is very little. Crimes against other people are atoned for through temporal justice systems or forgiveness, while crimes against god are atoned for during the High Holy days. Suicide is considered the only unforgivable crime not because of any connection to an afterlife, but because you cannot seek out forgiveness afterward.

You bet your theological bippy - the emphasis is on your morality or lack thereof while you are scurrying around the planet now. Because it's good to be good. Period.

 

[Netzach]

Sorry... we Catholics are known to be drinkers.

But the Bible is still just a glorious piece of literature for me. It doesn't mean I don't have a belief in some way. But the bible is still, for me, a collection of writings. Really beautiful writings. It is really the first example of serious literature.

Whether I believe or not. The Bible, Ot or NT, is pretty solid. And I am sort of into the poetry.

But then, poetry makes me weak at the knees.....

~LB

I like a good read too. It's inspiring. However I will be really pissed that no one can get me an English prof if I'm about to die and not a chaplain in a hospital. I want to go out on Dylan Thomas or Milton or Rumi or just damn near anything else.

 

[Recidiva]

You bet your theological bippy - the emphasis is on your morality or lack thereof while you are scurrying around the planet now. Because it's good to be good. Period.

I appreciate the ideas of heaven and hell, but they're most useful to me in terms of creating a relative heaven or hell for youself on earth while you're here.

I believe it's true that a clean conscience and doing the best you can results in a nice psychological immune system, same as taking care of your body and diet and such. It means you're less prone to threat, in general. Sure, you can still be taken down by something serious.

And on the other hand, guilt and remorse tend to make you think you deserve to be punished and are less likely to resist. Easier to take down.

So that's really the main conditions where hell exists on earth. No hope, no will, and the belief that you deserve and can't change your fate.

I find it ironic that this is such a universal truth that many religions that may have begun intending to free people from this cycle...end up reinforcing it in order to assure loyalty to the tenets of said religion.

 

[WriterDom]

I've always been attracted to the idea of reincarnation. That we are on earth to learn lessons. To obtain perfection. And karma. The guy who cheated people out of billions will see some horrible poverty for many lifetimes.

 

[Netzach]

I've always been attracted to the idea of reincarnation. That we are on earth to learn lessons. To obtain perfection. And karma. The guy who cheated people out of billions will see some horrible poverty for many lifetimes.

I find it attractive simply because the natural world operates on obvious and observable cycles. It simply seems uncharacteristic for life itself to follow a linear pattern if nothing else does.

But that void thing still sounds pretty good on a busy day.

 

[Recidiva]

I've always been attracted to the idea of reincarnation. That we are on earth to learn lessons. To obtain perfection. And karma. The guy who cheated people out of billions will see some horrible poverty for many lifetimes.

I'm on the fence about this. Many of the things I thought possibly couldn't exist without reincarnation I am rethinking into "cellular memory" and the idea that cells carry a lot more information than we thought/think.

It seems okay for me to think that humans might be prone to reincarnation, but when I try to put it in terms of "will the ants in my back yard be reincarnated" or "will my heart muscles, that work their assess off every day, go to heart muscle heaven" - my thoughts seem to be more egocentric and typically human.

I consider it a cycle of continuing energy and data that biologically isn't well understood.

The fact that people getting organ transplants now, that somehow have memories of previous inhabitants...now that's just cool.

 

[WriterDom]

And ghosts. I saw a preacher's daughter for 18 months. Smart girl. Perfect score on her verbal SATs. Graduated from a bible college. Not someone who you would think would make shit up. And she was sensing ghosts and spirits everywhere she went.

Some guy named James was buried near her apartment. Died in the 1800s. It was on an old plantation property in Tennessee. James came around her a lot. He knew she was aware of him. And when he saw her packing up to move he pitched a fit. Turning things off and on. That kind of thing.

Now I can't say any of that has happened to me. But I believed her. And saw her cat react to something in the top corner of the room as if it was a bird. That was spooky.

 

[Recidiva]

And ghosts. I saw a preacher's daughter for 18 months. Smart girl. Perfect score on her verbal SATs. Graduated from a bible college. Not someone who you would think would make shit up. And she was sensing ghosts and spirits everywhere she went.

Some guy named James was buried near her apartment. Died in the 1800s. It was on an old plantation property in Tennessee. James came around her a lot. He knew she was aware of him. And when he saw her packing up to move he pitched a fit. Turning things off and on. That kind of thing.

Now I can't say any of that has happened to me. But I believed her. And saw her cat react to something in the top corner of the room as if it was a bird. That was spooky.

I file ghosts under continuing energy and data too.

I'm not sure they're recycling so much as reruns...sometimes. I've met my version of some of my own interactive ones...but I'm not sure they can take in new information. I'm not sure of much of anything, really. But I do not assume someone seeing one is crazy or lying. I don't "see" ghosts. But I can sure as hell get a vibe. I'm more likely to process emotionally than in pictures anyway. Even with people.

But it's sure as hell true there's enough weird out there that I can't prove or disprove.

My husband works with electronics and there's a great little "myth" that I love - some electrician with a sense of humor.

You know that smell you get when a component burns out? Ozone and smoke?

"You let out the magic smoke. It died when the magic smoke escaped."

Honestly, it's as good as an explanation to anybody who doesn't grasp the basics of electronic components.

Life to me is a series of magic smoke doing funky things. I can only see parts of it and I'm prone to believing a reasonable explanation when others fail to explain the complexity.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Whoa nelly, that's a commonly held Christian read on the OT G man if ever one was.

He's kind of a pill at times, sure. We're the first to admit it.

But hell, look at the incomprehensible world around you and reconcile that to pure love and forgiveness and you're liable to wind up in a locked ward.

The same guy who strikes people dead for seeming kicks also heard Sarah laugh, parted the water, made abstract dreamers like Joseph and poetic rock throwers like David into great leaders, and let Solomon drop the hottest little verses in our ear.

I never had a problem with the creator god of the old testament. The end of the Book Of Job pretty much says it all "where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth".

 

[JMohegan]

I've always been attracted to the idea of reincarnation. That we are on earth to learn lessons. To obtain perfection. And karma. The guy who cheated people out of billions will see some horrible poverty for many lifetimes.

It would be nice to know that desperately impoverished people somehow deserved the misery, I suppose.

But would this mean we shouldn't help the unfortunate? Would feeding the hungry on earth be like taking a glass of water to people roasting in Hell? Would this piss off the Administrator of Divine Retribution somehow?

 

[JMohegan]

I never had a problem with the creator god of the old testament. The end of the Book Of Job pretty much says it all "where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth".

What is the answer to that question?

 

[WriterDom]

It would be nice to know that desperately impoverished people somehow deserved the misery, I suppose.

But would this mean we shouldn't help the unfortunate? Would feeding the hungry on earth be like taking a glass of water to people roasting in Hell? Would this piss off the Administrator of Divine Retribution somehow?

If so, Cindy McCain is in a world of shit.

 

[Recidiva]

It would be nice to know that desperately impoverished people somehow deserved the misery, I suppose.

But would this mean we shouldn't help the unfortunate? Would feeding the hungry on earth be like taking a glass of water to people roasting in Hell? Would this piss off the Administrator of Divine Retribution somehow?

I think this is also what burned me out on the idea. It would result in the same amount of people and things getting better over time.

Doesn't seem to be the case.

Also, I found that thinking this way made me prone to thinking, when I saw a crack baby "Wow. You must really have fucked up."

Not conducive to compassion so much in practice, in my case. It resulted in feeling complacent about everything being in its place spiritually. But I couldn't make things being spiritually correct with the physical so very fucked up mesh together. Had to still go with "fucked up but now numb to it."

My best guess is I'm still in a personal hell of believing in retribution, thus I'm prone to it to the extent I believe in it.

 

[JMohegan]

If so, Cindy McCain is in a world of shit.

Exactly.

 

[Shankara20]

Would this piss off the Administrator of Divine Retribution somehow?

oh what a wonderful job title!!!!!!


This post just lifted me right out of a grumpy mood....

 

[JMohegan]

My best guess is I'm still in a personal hell of believing in retribution, thus I'm prone to it to the extent I believe in it.

I was raised with the concept of Honor, and taught that Honor itself is defined in those moments when no one is looking and there's little or no chance of being caught.

 

[JMohegan]

oh what a wonderful job title!!!!!!


This post just lifted me right out of a grumpy mood....

Haha! Glad to hear it, Shank.

 

[Recidiva]

I was raised with the concept of Honor, and taught that Honor itself is defined in those moments when no one is looking and there's little or no chance of being caught.

From my own observation, it's the internal choices that govern behavior.

I used to lie, cheat and steal as a kid. I discovered it made me simultaneously feel awful and superior. Nobody ever caught me, but I noticed the effect it was having on me, and I stopped. Not only was I beginning to believe my own lies, I seemed to be able to change the way my brain responded to truth. I stopped going down that path because I didn't want to be so busy actively changing the truth of the world that I didn't know the difference any more. I was definitely headed that way.

I wasn't really raised with the concept, but it made itself apparent through my behavior.

 

[rosco rathbone]

What is the answer to that question?

The answer is "nowhere, God: you da man!".

If you read no other part of the Bible, read the last five books of Job (KJV).



Atheists like Richard Dawkins-in his book on religion-often whinge about the arbitrary and cruel nature of YHWH. That's not an aspect of Christianity that ever bothered me. Why should an omnipotent being be easy to understand?

 

[Recidiva]

The answer is "nowhere, God: you da man!".

If you read no other part of the Bible, read the last five books of Job (KJV).



Atheists like Richard Dawkins-in his book on religion-often whinge about the arbitrary and cruel nature of YHWH. That's not an aspect of Christianity that ever bothered me. Why should an omnipotent being be easy to understand?

Brilliant as he is, I find it entirely painful to read Dawkins because it's so full of his own egotistical rants about how much sense he has and how other people are really dumb.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Brilliant as he is, I find it entirely painful to read Dawkins because it's so full of his own egotistical rants about how much sense he has and how other people are really dumb.

His hysterical tone really starts to grate. It's obvious that the whole thing is personal with him.

 

[JMohegan]

The answer is "nowhere, God: you da man!".

If you read no other part of the Bible, read the last five books of Job (KJV).



Atheists like Richard Dawkins-in his book on religion-often whinge about the arbitrary and cruel nature of YHWH. That's not an aspect of Christianity that ever bothered me. Why should an omnipotent being be easy to understand?

This is essentially the root of my agnosticism. It doesn't seem reasonable to me for humans to be able to understand an omnipotent being *at all*.

But if we're talking about Christianity (and keeping in mind that I consider controlling the masses & enriching the leaders to be the key point of organized religion), I am "bothered" by the disconnect between the claim that we absolutely DO know some stuff (virgin birth, etc.) but throw up our hands and say God works in mysterious ways when the questions become uncomfortable. It seems to me to be a rather obvious ploy, and an easy out for the manipulators.