Does society train us to be switch?

[Sir Victor]

Among bonobos, our closer relative, or chimps, the submissive/dominant continuum isn't just along sex lines. There are males who are subservient to high rank females. The high rank females are downright scary.

Hmmm, don't know about bonobos but I'll take your word for it!
Yes, I probably should have said chimps rather than apes.
I think I've met a few of those high rank females, LOL!
Do you think those males are the ones that have no drive to be
dominant at all?

 

[precious105]

Yes of course, they say that often the customers for professional Dommes are powerful professional business men, or is that just a stereotype? It seems that some need balance. Satisfying the innate switch in many people?

Hey lookie here there may be some sort of correlation to jobs and sex after all.

 

[Netzach]

Hmmm, don't know about bonobos but I'll take your word for it!
Yes, I probably should have said chimps rather than apes.
I think I've met a few of those high rank females, LOL!
Do you think those males are the ones that have no drive to be
dominant at all?

Not sure. I don't remember from reading, but it's entirely possible they're the ones who got bested or they're just really kind of shy violets from birth, you get both kinds among humans I think. Chimp social structure is AMAZINGLY complex and there are still tons of things that we're learning and re-evaluating about what we thought we knew. We also put a lot of human bias on what we see - I personally am acquainted with someone who de-bunked a popular "food for sex" theory based on human notions of prostitution which wasn't what the apes were doing at all when you read into it. Interesting stuff.

 

[precious105]

Not sure. I don't remember from reading, but it's entirely possible they're the ones who got bested or they're just really kind of shy violets from birth, you get both kinds among humans I think.

haha, in humans you get the guy trying to replace their mom too....wonder if that has anything to do with chimps.

 

[Netzach]

Honestly, though I think that you have something as a human that really changes things - language. You will not find the highest ranking alpha submitting to the female in the ape world, but you will find world leaders being primed pumped and manipulated by women on occasion. The human female has language at her disposal - I have reduced hard men to tears with it. It can be druglike, more erotic than the sex act itself. I mean here we all are typing.

 

[precious105]

goodnight everyone, I'll check back with the thread in the morning.

Thanks to everyone who has offered in their point of view.

 

[Sir Victor]

Like Cutie, I run my own business out of my home. I did this because of the complete inability I had to be on the bottom of corporate hierarchies run by people rewarded for conformity and not smarts. I got *out*.

I do not find that my autonomy has me interested in contrasting it at home at all - I'm happier globally and more in control globally and therefore much more inclined to play as I like to play, ie. on top.

But if I had people looking to me all day to see what they ought to do, I might need to counteract this more strongly, I'm not sure.

D/s actually, in time explained to me the insanity that I observe in the corporate world. I see essentially intellectual "head butting" all the time, managers don't want to do the correct logical thing, they want to do whatever they initially decided because to change would require admitting error and submitting to another's perspective and ideas. This gets emotions going and most often the right choices are not made, rather the emotional dominant erroneous decision is made.

I do see your position also.

 

[Sir Victor]

haha, in humans you get the guy trying to replace their mom too....wonder if that has anything to do with chimps.

I think it does, because it is probably instinctive so that we pair bond and form a family which is good for survival. They are trying to replace the nurturer that they "lost" as they grew and had to learn to take care of themselves. Females, do it also however they move the attachment to daddy, so that it becomes male, and then other men when they learn that they can't marry daddy.

 

[Sir Victor]

Honestly, though I think that you have something as a human that really changes things - language. You will not find the highest ranking alpha submitting to the female in the ape world, but you will find world leaders being primed pumped and manipulated by women on occasion. The human female has language at her disposal - I have reduced hard men to tears with it. It can be druglike, more erotic than the sex act itself. I mean here we all are typing.

Interesting point, I always knew that language, well acutally moans could be highly arousing, and yes language also. I believe that language is a higher brain function and in this case it seems to be tightly wired to a lower brain function.

 

[wouldloveto]

I have experienced the contempt for being a switch here. It surprised me that there would be such judgment on a site like this. It certainly is not everyone, I know that, but the attitude of intolerance really threw me!

My job normally demands me to be dominant and I rarely kowtow to anyone. I also enjoy being on top but crave the bottom... Is it my job, my genes or some evil chemical that I have been exposed to?

I really do not care as I hate labels, but it does get a bit weird...

Politics is the same way...

 

[BiBunny]

I've never experienced any contempt for being a switch here. I don't think society necessarily trains us to be switches, either. I believe it's more who you are than who you're trained to be, kind of like being bisexual. Heterosexual/homosexual and dominant/submissive fall along a continuum. The bell curve shows that most people are going to fall in the middle on either of these continuums. "Bisexual" and "switch" are just simple words for those of us in the big part of the bell curve, even though some people may choose not to use those labels. *Shrug*

 

[neonflux]

Yes Switch means that sometimes you Top and sometimes you bottom. There is nothing wrong with this and is very common.

Some people don't like Switches and they all have thier own reasons, some people prefer them (usually switches themselves) You can be a switch with a preference towards submission or Dominance.

Know that when a switch is Topping they don't have any tendencies towards their subbie side and vice versa.

Sometimes different people can bring out a different side in a switch that makes them want to be more submissive or more Dominate.

If anyone else wants to add to this/correct it go at it.

Precious, I think that you have misconceptions about switches. I cannot speak for everyone, but I can speak from my own experience. Edited to ad: There are as many different ways to be switch as there are switches.

Where are you getting the idea that it's primarily switches who prefer other switches. I have not found contempt for my switchiness either in RL or on Lit and it doesn't seem to greatly affect my capacity to find play partners. The preference might be truer when it comes to finding a life partner, but life has taught me that love often defies reason when it comes to things like temperament, sexual wiring, or gender. *shrugs*

As to your assertion that when a switch is topping we don't have any tendencies towards our sub side or vice versa? In my experience this is definitely not the case. I am going through a phase right now where, aside from getting the physical benefits of a good flogging, I am not terribly interested in bottoming. That said, I am only one of many folks in my circles who actually switch mid-scene. I have found that play partners who are firmly dominant or submissive will bring out a particular part of my nature, but then it would be difficult to bottom to someone who doesn't like to top and vice versa.

Still wanting to know why you think you are in the minority? Because you see yourself as having a demanding job? Or because you have a demanding job and are also submissive? Or something else, because I am not sure that you are alone on either of those counts. ~ Neon

P.S., I am also a little puzzled at your bringing up the idea that some folks don't like switches since this is mentioning a topic that you have blasted others for commenting on in this thread.

 

[CutieMouse]

WouldLoveTo- I know this will come off as harsh, but dude... this isn't the first time I've seen you make a statement about being held in contemp/looked down upon/whatever for being a sumissive male, or being a switch, or essentially not following the "expected" role. I don't know about anyone else, but you started making those comments about being picked on/not appreciated/etc loooooong before I had any clue you were a submissive/switch sort. Is it possible you're a bit hypersensitive to the subject, and everyone isn't actually picking on you? Your attitude of long suffering isn't attractive; maybe that is what people are reacting to, not your orientation.

As for the topic-

I am a very service oriented person. All the jobs/volunteer work/everything falls on my shoulders stuff I rattled off earlier? Depending on how close you are/were to me, you might see a very in charge kick ass and take names sort of person (if you didn't know me so well), or you might realize my motivations stemmed from catering to everyone else's needs (if you were in my inner circle of friends), or you might think I was some silly woman without a backbone because I've always done things a bit differently than women are "supposed to" (my sister... ahem). Generally speaking, I don't believe you can tell that much about a person's D/s/switch orientation, based on what they do... I see too many shades of gray, to be able to discern a pattern of black and white...

 

[Netzach]

I think it does, because it is probably instinctive so that we pair bond and form a family which is good for survival. They are trying to replace the nurturer that they "lost" as they grew and had to learn to take care of themselves. Females, do it also however they move the attachment to daddy, so that it becomes male, and then other men when they learn that they can't marry daddy.

I married my gramma.

Maybe it's the strongest personality. I remember looking at my fussy little uptight collector-of-stuff with tendencies toward paranoid and I thought to myself "Oh shit, I've married my gramma."

I also read a *really* interesting feminist analysis done by a scholar who loves romance novels. She brought up the idea that the heroes in these thingies have as many mom characteristics loaded onto them as possible - from huge pecs on the covers to the fact that they "take care of" things - that it's an amalgm of mom and dad and we all need mom when shit hits the fan. Really interesting.

 

[Netzach]

I've never really caught any anti-switch flak when I bring up the fact that I've spent a lot of time on each side of the flogger in order to figure out what side I'd rather be on - or even that once in a long while I don't mind playing to the bottom or even submitting to the right person when I know it's temporary and limited to how long I want to do it. I've had people assert that I'm probably not "naturally" Dominant, to which I'm more than happy to agree. I am not "naturally" exclusively Dominant, I decided to be. Bisexuality also feels decisive to me - I am one of those people who thinks it doesn't matter whether you're born this way or it's a choice whatsoever. I have the right to be a left-alone pervert of whatever shade I feel like being.

 

[precious105]

Precious, I think that you have misconceptions about switches. I cannot speak for everyone, but I can speak from my own experience. Edited to ad: There are as many different ways to be switch as there are switches.

I totally agree here and is why I added that someone could add to my very short description of something not so easy to explain.

Where are you getting the idea that it's primarily switches who prefer other switches. I have not found contempt for my switchiness either in RL or on Lit and it doesn't seem to greatly affect my capacity to find play partners. The preference might be truer when it comes to finding a life partner, but life has taught me that love often defies reason when it comes to things like temperament, sexual wiring, or gender. *shrugs*

I was referring more to life partners, sorry that wasn't clear.

As to your assertion that when a switch is topping we don't have any tendencies towards our sub side or vice versa? In my experience this is definitely not the case. I am going through a phase right now where, aside from getting the physical benefits of a good flogging, I am not terribly interested in bottoming. That said, I am only one of many folks in my circles who actually switch mid-scene. I have found that play partners who are firmly dominant or submissive will bring out a particular part of my nature, but then it would be difficult to bottom to someone who doesn't like to top and vice versa.

Well said, again my short version has done no justice to anything and this is a much better and more accurate description. I would think it hard to switch over my frame of mind mid way but hey I really don't have that much experience.

Still wanting to know why you think you are in the minority? Because you see yourself as having a demanding job? Or because you have a demanding job and are also submissive? Or something else, because I am not sure that you are alone on either of those counts. ~ Neon

P.S., I am also a little puzzled at your bringing up the idea that some folks don't like switches since this is mentioning a topic that you have blasted others for commenting on in this thread.

It was starting to seem that way from comments, doesn't really seem that way anymore.

Sorry if you feel like I brought up something on people not liking switches, I was only trying to say that all people have their own preferences. I do know people that will not be with a switch (again a life partnership not play) sorry if that offends anyone, its only on a sexual basis not a personality /friendship thing.

Thanks for the extra input on switching in general and correcting my poor generalized description.

 

[neonflux]

I totally agree here and is why I added that someone could add to my very short description of something not so easy to explain.




I was referring more to life partners, sorry that wasn't clear.



Well said, again my short version has done no justice to anything and this is a much better and more accurate description. I would think it hard to switch over my frame of mind mid way but hey I really don't have that much experience.



It was starting to seem that way from comments, doesn't really seem that way anymore.

Sorry if you feel like I brought up something on people not liking switches, I was only trying to say that all people have their own preferences. I do know people that will not be with a switch (again a life partnership not play) sorry if that offends anyone, its only on a sexual basis not personality a personality/friendship thing.

Thanks for the extra input on switching in general and correcting my poor generalized description.

You're welcome. Thank you for your measured response to my post. I don't take offense at all at your saying that some people view switches negatively, nor do I suspect that most others who posted about that particular topic do, either. Quite honestly, I am over 50 and don't give a rat's ass about what people think about me or whether they like me or not. It's just that being viewed negatively for being switch hasn't been my experience. I was actually referring to the fact that you were bringing up the contempt issue again when you'd tried to kick others off of your thread for having done so. In any case, it's all good.

*shrug*
~Neon

 

[Sir Victor]

I married my gramma.

Maybe it's the strongest personality. I remember looking at my fussy little uptight collector-of-stuff with tendencies toward paranoid and I thought to myself "Oh shit, I've married my gramma."

I also read a *really* interesting feminist analysis done by a scholar who loves romance novels. She brought up the idea that the heroes in these thingies have as many mom characteristics loaded onto them as possible - from huge pecs on the covers to the fact that they "take care of" things - that it's an amalgm of mom and dad and we all need mom when shit hits the fan. Really interesting.

married gramma, LOL!!!

Men's tendency to protect and nurture his mate can have strong similarities to youthful nurturing, I agree.

 

[Sir Victor]

Not sure. I don't remember from reading, but it's entirely possible they're the ones who got bested or they're just really kind of shy violets from birth, you get both kinds among humans I think. Chimp social structure is AMAZINGLY complex and there are still tons of things that we're learning and re-evaluating about what we thought we knew. We also put a lot of human bias on what we see - I personally am acquainted with someone who de-bunked a popular "food for sex" theory based on human notions of prostitution which wasn't what the apes were doing at all when you read into it. Interesting stuff.

The basics are fairly well established as I see it, I would agree that the details are probably difficult to determine.

I've learned most of this in passing so I'm no expert, but there are a few interesting behaviors. One chimp group was noted as essentially spending much of their time having orgies, and they were the most peaceful.

Another was that while most pair bond, on careful observation, the females were noted as sneaking off for sex with other males. Counter to the stereotype with humans where the male is the wanderer.

 

[precious105]

WouldLoveTo- I know this will come off as harsh, but dude... this isn't the first time I've seen you make a statement about being held in contemp/looked down upon/whatever for being a sumissive male, or being a switch, or essentially not following the "expected" role. I don't know about anyone else, but you started making those comments about being picked on/not appreciated/etc loooooong before I had any clue you were a submissive/switch sort. Is it possible you're a bit hypersensitive to the subject, and everyone isn't actually picking on you? Your attitude of long suffering isn't attractive; maybe that is what people are reacting to, not your orientation.

As for the topic-

I am a very service oriented person. All the jobs/volunteer work/everything falls on my shoulders stuff I rattled off earlier? Depending on how close you are/were to me, you might see a very in charge kick ass and take names sort of person (if you didn't know me so well), or you might realize my motivations stemmed from catering to everyone else's needs (if you were in my inner circle of friends), or you might think I was some silly woman without a backbone because I've always done things a bit differently than women are "supposed to" (my sister... ahem). Generally speaking, I don't believe you can tell that much about a person's D/s/switch orientation, based on what they do... I see too many shades of gray, to be able to discern a pattern of black and white...

The world is full of shades of gray. I realize every person is different. What I'm trying to find out if there is a majority of people who find their job may have given them the idea to switch things up in play.

For example: If while your doing your volunteer work has being in charge of 3 different people possible ever gotten you wondering about being in charge later on?

It would be like making a conscience decision to go against your innate desires.

 

[precious105]

You're welcome. Thank you for your measured response to my post. I don't take offense at all at your saying that some people view switches negatively, nor do I suspect that most others who posted about that particular topic do, either. Quite honestly, I am over 50 and don't give a rat's ass about what people think about me or whether they like me or not. It's just that being viewed negatively for being switch hasn't been my experience. I was actually referring to the fact that you were bringing up the contempt issue again when you'd tried to kick others off of your thread for having done so. In any case, it's all good.

*shrug*
~Neon

Didn't view it as bringing up the contempt issue since it was in response to a serious question. I won't ever get mad at anyone for asking a question.

 

[precious105]

The basics are fairly well established as I see it, I would agree that the details are probably difficult to determine.

I've learned most of this in passing so I'm no expert, but there are a few interesting behaviors. One chimp group was noted as essentially spending much of their time having orgies, and they were the most peaceful.

Another was that while most pair bond, on careful observation, the females were noted as sneaking off for sex with other males. Counter to the stereotype with humans where the male is the wanderer.

The males just get caught more... and is worse situations. If your gonna go down go big

 

[precious105]

married gramma, LOL!!!

Men's tendency to protect and nurture his mate can have strong similarities to youthful nurturing, I agree.

Women in my family have a tendency to seek out men that are exactly like our fathers, every single one of them. Who would have thought so many men would act the exact same way.

 

[Xelebes]

Switching is not something that is trained nor is natural embedded into the fabric of anyone person. It is the whimsical flow between two sides like that of the tide which incites excitement for one as they refuse to choose which side of the fence to play on. One is simply less likely to fall into the problems of chance when finding their partner, so improvisation is an asset.

 

[neonflux]

Switching is not something that is trained nor is natural embedded into the fabric of anyone person. It is the whimsical flow between two sides like that of the tide which incites excitement for one as they refuse to choose which side of the fence to play on. One is simply less likely to fall into the problems of chance when finding their partner, so improvisation is an asset.

Brilliant! If only you would peak your little exo-skeleton head in more often, LOL.