Does your spouse (or SO) have the right

[warrior queen]

I live this scenario with my lover. His wife has had no interest in sex for over 10 years. He still cares for her and doesn't really want to divorce her. But he has a very high libito and wasn't willing to give that up entirely for life. I know how many of you disapprove of this type of solution to this problem. But I just smile. Check back in history - people have been taking lovers on the side since time began. I'm not saying history makes it right - I'm just saying that it is a common practice - there must be many people who feel the same way.

On the other hand: Is it so wrong to have sex once in a while - even if you personally are not DYING to have sex - because you know it will make your partner happy? I mean - its only sex! Don't you sometimes take out the trash or do the dishes (or fill in some other chore) just to make your SO happy? I know - you'll all jump on me saying "Sex shouldn't be a chore...." Well - No - it shouldn't. But sometimes we do things for our partners not just cuz we want to - but because they want to. And you smile and put on a happy face and love them.

How's that for speaking out of both sides of my ass!?!?

ducking the flames.....

i agree totally with what you have said. and i KNOW some people are going to be offended at it.
but hey - TOUGH!

life is supposed to be some give and take, and if having sex (even if you're not completely in the mood) makes your partner happy, then i say do it.
you're right, it's only sex.
and before everyone gets all hot and bothered about it - you'd compromise on other areas, so why not when it comes to rumpy-pumpy?

why does this particular issue always have to be in black and white? there's nothing wrong with giving once in a while, even if it's not when you'd personally like.
sheesh - simple really!

oh, and i say be happy with your guy, even if he's having an affair to be with you, crazybbwgirl....... who's business is it but yours anyway?!

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Rumpy Pumpy!?!?! lmfao

 

[warrior queen]

Rumpy Pumpy!?!?! lmfao

i know - cute, huh?!!!

my 11 year old son said that the other day - he reckons it was nicer than saying 'sex', and it's kinda stuck in my head.

btw, we were having a conversation about a book he'd read that had some sexual connotations in it.

 

[Missingmeds]

So there it is....thank you both crazybbwgirl and warrior queen for saying what I was trying to.

If some of the emails that I get are anything to judge by, there is more people than most would care to think about going thru this with their S/O.

 

[warrior queen]

So there it is....thank you both crazybbwgirl and warrior queen for saying what I was trying to.

If some of the emails that I get are anything to judge by, there is more people than most would care to think about going thru this with their S/O.

the trouble with having a discussion like this, on a site such as lit -
is that most here are very different people in their real lives, and shattering the illusion of having sex 15 times a day in 27 different positions, is very hard to do.

good to see though that some have the courage to be honest.

and if it helps someone to see that there are vastly differing levels of relationships, well that can only be a good thing.

 

[tendril]

the trouble with having a discussion like this, on a site such as lit -
is that most here are very different people in their real lives, and shattering the illusion of having sex 15 times a day in 27 different positions, is very hard to do.

good to see though that some have the courage to be honest.

and if it helps someone to see that there are vastly differing levels of relationships, well that can only be a good thing.

Agreed.

Also, we tend to 'project' ourselves and our SO into certain situations as described here on Lit.

When someone describes in great detail how they are coping with certain issues in their own relationship by having an affair our immediate reaction is to project ourselves into that situation and then scream HELL NO! (or YES! as the case may be).

Their solution to the problem is not YOUR solution, and vice versa.

I log onto Lit with my eyes AND mind open at all times.

 

[capricious_chic]

It's only sex

For many people there is more to sex than the physical act.

The only time I have ever had sex with my partner when I didn't really want to is when I was much younger. I hated it, I hated the way it made me feel about myself and worse I hated the way it made about my partner. I would never subject myself to feeling that way again. I am fortunate because I love sex, I enjoy a very active and vivid sexual appetite - but even so there will still be times that I simply do not want to have sex. I know that we are talking about people whose drive has seemed to disappear and not about the waxing and waning that is normal - but even so I can understand why people who have lost their libido wouldn't/couldn't "just do it" once in awhile because it is only sex.

I have no problems with open relationships/marriages. I don't have a problem with people ending a relationship/marriage because of the lack of sex. The only time I have a problem with it is when dishonesty enters into the equation. Finding an outside source for sexual release and lying about it is not something that I would tolerate - for myself in my own relationships, nor something that I could find empathy for with others. Regardless of the reason - end one relationship before beginning another - or be honest about it. Lying, for whatever reason, does not sit well with me.

Yes, people have been unfaithful all through time - but in that time frame divorce was not an option. The concept of an open marriage is nowhere near being new - people used to get married and the first two children of a union were reserved for the couple and after that it would be anyone's guess. I would say that the idea that it has never been the norm would be wrong - because for as many unsuccessful relationships out there, there are also many very successful ones.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Out of my 3 best girl friends - 1 has sex once a month. 1 hasn't had sex in 4 years. 1 hasn't had sex since her wedding nite (almost 5 years ago) And its the GUY who doesn't want to have sex in each situation! I don't understand that. I don't know how they do it - but I sure know what I'm getting them for their birthdays - vibrators all around!

 

[Missingmeds]

Eyes and mind wide open and I try really hard not to respond with a knee-jerk reaction. That only causes me to end up with my foot in my mouth....


There are times when I will view a thread several times before posting a comment. Simply because as someone said, my reaction to any given situation is not going to be the same as someone else's.

I do like the term Rumpy Pumpy....

 

[Bobmi357]

First off let me state for the record that "Rumpy-Pumpy" is one of the most imaginitive names for it that I've ever heard.

As to the comment about it being only sex and giving in to your partner. Well let me try to put into perspective from my point of view.

Yes, once in a while, its ok to give in to the wishes of your partner. ONCE IN A WHILE. But its not ok if all you're ever doing is giving in. Giving in is kinda like taking aspirin. It doesn't really make the cold go away, but it does lower the fever and reduce the headache. Giving in sorta masks the symptoms.

Maybe I'm a hopeless idealist, but I'd much prefer my lover to want to make love with me, not just accede to my desire. I want her to want me as much as I want her, to look forward to the act with eager willingness. To give in implies a certain amount of passivity during the act.

Give in? Once in a while is ok, but if it starts to happen more and more often all you are doing is devaluating yourself and in the long run, hurting the relationship.

Here's to a willing Rumpy-Pumpy partner!

 

[Kenny9990]

Whao, I'm a bit surprised by the intensity of feelings in some of these posts.

But let me try to clarify the issue I was trying to raise. I was not intending to cover situations where a partner was seriously ill or recovering from childbirth. Hell, if my wife was sick from chemotherapy, I don't think I'd be having any thoughts about sex myself--I'd be too worried about her.

The scenario I was raising was one where a perfectly healthy person decides for their own selfish reasons that they don't want to have any more sex (or very little sex) with their partner.

What's the "abandoned" partner to do? Is it fair to force celibacy on your partner?

In my view, if after reasonable efforts to resolve the problem to mutual satisfaction fail, I believe the abandoned partner has the right to seek sex elsewhere. It's probably best in most (but not all) cases to divorce but some people might want to stay married as their partner fullfills their needs in all areas but sex, or for kids sake, etc.

I'd also disagree strongly to the comments that you don't need sex to live, etc. Peoples' sex drives and needs vary all over the map--some are happy with no sex or once or twice a month, others need it twice a day. People with low sex drives/needs may not be able to understand how others feel on this subject.

 

[Annora]

So as one would think on the comments. There is a good reasons
for having an affair? That is like saying you can fall out of love.
That doesn't happen without a conscious effort from your own heart. To not accept them and their faults, any longer.

You make a conscious decision to quit loving your SO. It's not something so vague that you just fall out of love. That is like being a lttle pregnant. You aren't going to fall out of love, if you don't want something different. Some new thing before midlife hits... Before it's to late. Be sexual with the SO give them what you waste on some online relationship.

Turn off the puter, turn on your SO.

 

[warrior queen]

So as one would think on the comments. There is a good reasons
for having an affair? That is like saying you can fall out of love.
That doesn't happen without a conscious effort from your own heart. To not accept them and their faults, any longer.

You make a conscious decision to quit loving your SO. It's not something so vague that you just fall out of love. That is like being a lttle pregnant. You aren't going to fall out of love, if you don't want something different. Some new thing before midlife hits... Before it's to late. Be sexual with the SO give them what you waste on some online relationship.

Turn off the puter, turn on your SO.

i'm sorry to disagree, but you are incorrect when you say it's not possible to just fall out of love.
it is.
i am living proof of that.
my ex was everything i ever dreamed of in a partner, and more.
up until he developed manic depression.
it took some time for his personality to change, but change drastically it did - until one day i realised i no longer loved the person he had become.
i didn't just 'fall out of love', nor did i 'make a concious decision to quit loving' him - it happened over a period of some years.
but it happened. (in fact, i tried extremely hard to try and find the kind of love-feelings i used to have, for many years - i gave it 5 years before i accepted the worst)

and no, i did not go out and look for love elsewhere, nor did i imagine that there might be something else 'before it's too late'..... i simply woke up one day next to a person i no longer felt right being next to.

YOU may not be able to 'fall out of love', but don't assume that what has or hasn't happened to you applies elsewhere.

 

[Annora]

So in sickness and in health.... It was only worth staying around for the health? His disease wasn't something he brought onto himself. It IS a disease. Much like cancer, or cardiac or a million other conditions. They befall upon our life. We play the hand that is dealt us. Chemo changes a person. So does having cardiac arrest. So does your point of view have conditions on just how much they change whether you dump them?

You made a conscious decision to leave him. No other way to look at it. What if it were you?

 

[warrior queen]

So in sickness and in health.... It was only worth staying around for the health? His disease wasn't something he brought onto himself. It IS a disease. Much like cancer, or cardiac or a million other conditions. They befall upon our life. We play the hand that is dealt us. Chemo changes a person. So does having cardiac arrest. So does your point of view have conditions on just how much they change whether you dump them?

You made a conscious decision to leave him. No other way to look at it. What if it were you?

to be perfectly honest, i have also become changed as a result of his illness, and no, i do not expect him to remain in love with the changed me. and he didn't.

neither of us is anywhere near the same as we were before this happened, and neither of us has illusions that life, and love, are not changeable also.

people grow, change, mature, or regress, and things that are outside of our control DO have influence over our emotions.
whether or not we manage to balance these new emotional conditions is something that is as individual as colour preference, and more power to those that do manage it.
i am not one of those people.

 

[Missingmeds]

So in sickness and in health.... It was only worth staying around for the health? His disease wasn't something he brought onto himself. It IS a disease. Much like cancer, or cardiac or a million other conditions. They befall upon our life. We play the hand that is dealt us. Chemo changes a person. So does having cardiac arrest. So does your point of view have conditions on just how much they change whether you dump them?

You made a conscious decision to leave him. No other way to look at it. What if it were you?

You are so right, chemo and cardiac arrest do change a person.

But when the condition is one where the illness not only threatens your mental well being but your life as well,(drs will tell that most people that commit murder have an underlying mental illness), then it is time to get out.

My ex's mental issues threatened not only my self esteem, but my mental health. It wasn't a simple case of me physically doing things that would help him recover from this. As one can do with someone on Chemo or someone that has had a heart attack.

So I find that whole in sickness and in health argument to be one that is a fallacy. Warrior queen, I know exactly what you mean and believe me, I understand.

I do agree that having an affair is not a good thing, but then I also happen to believe that staying together for the children is not a good thing either. But when an S/O refuses to acknowledge a problem even exist, then there is no talking to them about it. This board is full of cases that prove this very point.

I say this, in my honest opinion, when a partner refuses to do anything about the sexual side of a relationship then the very mental well being of the other partner can be in jeopardy.

 

[Bobmi357]

What's the "abandoned" partner to do? Is it fair to force celibacy on your partner?

In my view, if after reasonable efforts to resolve the problem to mutual satisfaction fail, I believe the abandoned partner has the right to seek sex elsewhere. It's probably best in most (but not all) cases to divorce but some people might want to stay married as their partner fullfills their needs in all areas but sex, or for kids sake, etc.

No it is not fair for one partner to force celibacy on another.

However if you entered into a monogomous relationship with someone and suddenly you find yourself on the sex diet, responding to one injustice with another isn't right either.

Unless your spouse specifically gives you permission to have sex outside of the relationship, you do not have the right to initiate it. If you have any self respect, you won't.

Your spouse has cut off the sex? You have the right and the obligation to try to fix the problem. You have the right to break off the relationship (divorce). You do not have the right to follow up on your spouse's injustice with one of your own.

And from one thats been there, done that and have the t-shirt to prove it, staying together for the sake of the kids is the stupidest excuse in the world. The kids aren't stupid, they see Mommy and Daddy barely have a civil word to say to one another, they hear the fights. It sends them a message that sets the stage for their own relationship problems years down the road.

If your spouse has cut you off, and you've tried talking about it and got no where. Ask yourself, "Can I live life on masturbation alone?". If you answer yes, then enjoy it and stay together. If you answer no, file for divorce and get out while you still have the time.

Above all, be true to yourself and your self respect. Do the honorable thing and leave, then find yourself someone you can be happy with.

 

[warrior queen]

Unless your spouse specifically gives you permission to have sex outside of the relationship, you do not have the right to initiate it. If you have any self respect, you won't.

Your spouse has cut off the sex? You have the right and the obligation to try to fix the problem. You have the right to break off the relationship (divorce). You do not have the right to follow up on your spouse's injustice with one of your own.

have to ask - should the spouse that's cutting off the sexual contact also have had 'permission' to do so? like, "darling, i know it's terribly awful of me, but would you mind too much if i just stopped having sex with you for, say, the next 3 years?"

this is a very complex issue, and some people are going to solve it for themselves by having an affair, with or without 'specifically getting permission'.

the first statement above seems to say that while one person can undermine the fabric of a relationship at their whim, the other person really has no say.
that they are supposed to carry all the obligation to fix it, but this is regardless of how they have been dismissed by their partner.

whichever way you say it, with-holding sexual contact from your partner for an extended length of time, and not actively working with them to solve the issues, means you have given up the right to dictate what your partner can and can't do with regard to their own gratification, IMO.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

I just do not understand the allure of marriage. The more I read posts on Lit. the more positive I am its a bad idea! lol

 

[warrior queen]

I just do not understand the allure of marriage. The more I read posts on Lit. the more positive I am its a bad idea! lol

this isn't only about married couples - my relationship was an 11 year de-facto, because i too, do not believe in marriage anymore.
my first marriage ended for similar reasons as those here, as well as because of the emotional abuse i got while in it.

 

[Kenny9990]

Bobmi537--guess I see things a little bit differently.

I certainly agree there may be times when the best option is to get a divorce when the sexual relationship is broken and your partner is not willing to work on a fix. I certainly agree the "cut off" partner has that right.

I also agree you should discuss all options, including going outside the marriage" with your spouse. But if they deny you that release, I believe there are times when "cheating" may be better for you, your spouse and any children than obtaining a divorce. Suppose the relationship is working on all levels except sex. And the financial implications of divorce can be devastating to the entire family.

This is a complex issue and there are no absolutes.

 

[capricious_chic]

No it is not fair for one partner to force celibacy on another.

However if you entered into a monogomous relationship with someone and suddenly you find yourself on the sex diet, responding to one injustice with another isn't right either.

Unless your spouse specifically gives you permission to have sex outside of the relationship, you do not have the right to initiate it. If you have any self respect, you won't.

Your spouse has cut off the sex? You have the right and the obligation to try to fix the problem. You have the right to break off the relationship (divorce). You do not have the right to follow up on your spouse's injustice with one of your own.

And from one thats been there, done that and have the t-shirt to prove it, staying together for the sake of the kids is the stupidest excuse in the world. The kids aren't stupid, they see Mommy and Daddy barely have a civil word to say to one another, they hear the fights. It sends them a message that sets the stage for their own relationship problems years down the road.

If your spouse has cut you off, and you've tried talking about it and got no where. Ask yourself, "Can I live life on masturbation alone?". If you answer yes, then enjoy it and stay together. If you answer no, file for divorce and get out while you still have the time.

Above all, be true to yourself and your self respect. Do the honorable thing and leave, then find yourself someone you can be happy with.

Very well said!

That is bascially what I have been trying to say.

 

[capricious_chic]

have to ask - should the spouse that's cutting off the sexual contact also have had 'permission' to do so? like, "darling, i know it's terribly awful of me, but would you mind too much if i just stopped having sex with you for, say, the next 3 years?"

this is a very complex issue, and some people are going to solve it for themselves by having an affair, with or without 'specifically getting permission'.

the first statement above seems to say that while one person can undermine the fabric of a relationship at their whim, the other person really has no say.
that they are supposed to carry all the obligation to fix it, but this is regardless of how they have been dismissed by their partner.

whichever way you say it, with-holding sexual contact from your partner for an extended length of time, and not actively working with them to solve the issues, means you have given up the right to dictate what your partner can and can't do with regard to their own gratification, IMO.

I don't see the same things you do in this respect. Even when married one always retains full rights over their own body. One never needs permission to have those rights. One doesn't enter into a marriage and give over those rights.

One does enter into a marriage (more often than not, but not always) with the promise of monogamy. It is a legal and binding contract between two people to remain faithful to one another. While it is a good and legal reason to get a divorce because of lack of sexual activity - it is also a good and legal reason to divorce because of adultery.

It doesn't "solve" anything when one spouse decides to use the actions of the other to justify doing something equally wrong and damaging to the relationship. One always has a choice. The choices may not always be pleasant - but they do exist. Deciding that it is okay to be dishonest/deceitful because of the another person is just an excuse.

The only time one gives up from their spouse the "right" to dictate how gratification is found is when one is divorced from the situation and the person that is denying them - otherwise they are just as wrong as the person that is with-holding.

 

[BTK51]

It's Not a Bad Idea ...

I just do not understand the allure of marriage. The more I read posts on Lit. the more positive I am its a bad idea! lol

..It’s just that not everyone takes their vows seriously. If a person doesn't believe in the vows of marriage then I agree, marriage is a bad idea. If a person wants to commit themselves and truly believes the vow that they are taking and that they will uphold that vow, then it can be a great thing.

There is a lot of comfort in marriage. Marriage isn’t going to make a bad relationship good. Marriage doesn’t fix anything that’s wrong with a relationship. If both people take their vows seriously, it is something to build on and in my opinion, makes it easier to get through the tough times. Knowing that not only is someone there for you but they also profess publicly (and many times to God) that they will always be there, makes it easier to get out of that valley and start working to get to the top of the mountain again. Saying that I am going to try & give you everything you need and get everything that I need from you, does provide reassurance to the two people involved when there is truth and trust. Someone whose word means nothing to them negates that benefit of marriage.

I do see a huge difference between cheating in a marriage and cheating in a relationship. There is a vow involved that makes it much worse. Many on this board say end the marriage and don’t cheat. I have to agree. I see this issue as black and white. Regardless of what has been done to you, breaking one’s word is flat-out wrong and I don’t see how anyone can justify it to themselves. Two wrongs NEVER make a right- it just makes it twice as wrong.

Kenny – I can’t speak from your shoes so it’s easy for me to pontificate from the cheap seats. But I would hope that if I was ever in your place that I would not be able to put a price on my word. I think that it is more important than the financial implications.

 

[Bobmi357]

have to ask - should the spouse that's cutting off the sexual contact also have had 'permission' to do so? like, "darling, i know it's terribly awful of me, but would you mind too much if i just stopped having sex with you for, say, the next 3 years?"

this is a very complex issue, and some people are going to solve it for themselves by having an affair, with or without 'specifically getting permission'.

the first statement above seems to say that while one person can undermine the fabric of a relationship at their whim, the other person really has no say.
that they are supposed to carry all the obligation to fix it, but this is regardless of how they have been dismissed by their partner.

whichever way you say it, with-holding sexual contact from your partner for an extended length of time, and not actively working with them to solve the issues, means you have given up the right to dictate what your partner can and can't do with regard to their own gratification, IMO.

You're absolutely correct. Your spouse doesn't have the right to impose celibacy on you. But if they do, they can suffer the consequences of their actions, up to and including divorce.

The way I see it, its pretty cut and dry. I made a vow to remain faithful, that vow holds true until either by mutual agreement, or death, it is broken. I keep my word, why? Because that is the type of person I am. If I say I will do something, its important to me to make sure I do it.

We have little we can truly call our own. And our self respect ranks right up there in the top 10. I don't know about others, but breaking a vow is not something I would willingly do. During my first marriage I WANTED to cheat, by the end I was so fricking horny a warm car tailpipe was attractive. I was tempted on several occasions, and on one occasion, had that temptation laid out on silver platter. Everyman's wet dream, a 17yr old babysitter with a body made for loving. But I didn't cheat. Perhaps I liked being miserable, but on the other hand I went into my second marriage knowing I wasn't a cheater, I can look back at a bad time in my life with some small measure of pride knowing I tried to save the marriage, and when it failed, it wasn't because I strayed or played the field. Its small comfort, but for me it works.

I look at the people that stay in a failed marriage and cheat outside of it and question their integrity. If they can break their vows to someone that is supposed to the most important person in their life, what other promises can they break? Its not like you have to donate a kidney to obtain a divorce, they are pretty easy to get these days.

The whole point here is a simple one. If you made a promise either stick to it, or take the necessary steps so you can find happiness and still maintain your pride.

As to the concept of staying together because EVERYTHING is fine, except the sex. Bullshit. Everything isn't fine. If the spouse that refuses to have sex also refuses to work on the problem, then you have other problems besides sex in that relationship. Right up at the top of the list would be a failure of the spouse wanting sex to communicate with the spouse that doesn't want sex.

Look folks, sex is important, but its not the only factor in a relationship. Many times refusing to have sex is merely a symptom of a far deeper problem. The simple fact is (and this is from personal experience), in a good relationship the spouse not wanting sex will realize that what they are doing is wrong and try to find ways to fix the problem. While in a bad relationship the spouse not wanting sex won't give a damn and let the other spouse suck air. I've been in both types and let me tell you, even without sex, a good relationship beats a bad one any day.

For every action, there is a reaction

There, a simplified version of one of the first laws of physics, but its also true in relationships. When a spouse cuts the other off from sex, it invokes a reaction. The immediate (and mostly wrong) reaction is to lash out in anger and hurt. Do something mean back to the person that has done something mean to you. WRONG RESPONSE FOLKS. Running off and screwing the babysitter, or your secretary, or your neighbor is just going to cause additional damage to the relationship. Cutting off of sex in a monogomous relationship isn't an excuse to run off and screw just for the sake of getting your rocks off.

Sometimes the spouse that does the cutting off doesn't even realize the problems they are causing. Oft times a lack of libido leaves them assuming "If I'm not horny, then my spouse won't be horny". Its a wrong concept, and even I fail to follow that logic, but thats what they seem to think. So running off and cheating suddenly becomes a shock to the other spouse. How could you do that to me? Never understanding that they drove you to it in the first place.

You can circumvent all the pain that will cause if you just talk to your spouse. Explain your position. Things may never go back to the three times a day and five on weekends, but if you talk calmly, present your case without accusing, or casting blame, you just might end up with a compromise you can live with it.

If talk fails to improve the situation, if the spouse fails to see your point of view, then you have reached what the lawyers call "irreconcilable difference". And at that point, why stick it out? Why stay in a relationship that has suddenly become totally one sided? Who wants to live with someone, sharing house, food, money, everything and knowing this person could care less about your needs as a sexual being? Not I.

Cheating may sound like its a nice neat solution to the problem, but in truth it isn't. You have to sneak around, hope that mutual friends don't see you, and if they do, pray they never mention it to your spouse. The stress from cheating alone is enough to give you an ulcer.

As I see it, if a spouse starts to refuse sex, the other spouse should present the following options to them;

1) We work on the problem together.

2) You give me permission to seek relief outside of the marriage. But also you will have to acknowledge the possibility that I may fall in love with someone else and seek a divorce to be with them.

3) Divorce.

If the doc said to my wife today that she could never have sex again, I'd stay anyway. We'd have to make adjustments and perhaps we'd even agree it would be ok for me to go outside of the relationship (Although personally I don't think I could do that). The most important part is together, we would work it out. And that is the key. If you can't work this out with your partner then you already have a serious problem in your relationship and its heading to the basement.