Erotica versus Sex Fiction

[IWillEndYou]

This reply isn't aimed at the poster above, who appears to enjoy inciting negativity whenever he/she/it can.
But I do see the word "narcissist" used too freely (even in this forum) and often in stories. To those who really do care about the harmful impact of using a clinical diagnosis irresponsibly, take 13 minutes out of your day to watch this.

 

[Yellowbirdy]

Noted on the sunsets thing, though the suggestion about putting it into N/N from @NotWise and @BobbyBrandt was a little more practical - too cloudy here today. I hadn't thought of N/N, not my usual crowd.

@seraph_nocturne thanks for the offer - I'm assuming the deadline you mention is the Geek Day story contest? That's all that's going on in the world at the moment right? If you're good after that, ping me and I'll send it through... would appreciate an opinion

I came in because i was curious to find out the “difference” that you authors seem to accept. I am not saying there is no difference or that there is, but i am curious about if you think there is and if so what is it?

 

[IWillEndYou]

Oh, Tilan. Of course you quoted me and replied. Of course you did. You couldn't resist, could you? Even when I stated that my post was directed at everyone except you.

she claimed in one of her interviews that she tried to instill empathy in her baby through eye contact during breastfeeding.

Citation needed. Without proof, this is a lie that amounts to defamation. Even if she did say that in some interview, it doesn't negate the pertinent issue. Which is your irresponsible use of a clinical term on a forum of people you don't know well enough to diagnose, even if you were a clinician. That point stands regardless of your deflection tactics.

Walking around with a mirror and showing people their true appearance is not about "inciting negativity," but rather a noble crusade for a better world. I'm literally sacrificing myself here, even if in a somewhat quixotic way.

Really? Well, in that case, there are two possibilities here.
1. You honestly believe that you're a messiah with the task of solving the world's greatest problems, and that the right way of achieving this is by sitting in your house/office/café, being combative on a smutty story site. If so, you deserve sympathy, understanding, and the attention of a mental health professional.
2. You're an attention-seeker of the highest order. Enough that it gives you satisfaction to seem behaviorally disregulated to many. Lots more people see your posts than you might realize. Don't forget this is an open forum with plenty of lurkers who aren't even logged in, so there's no way of knowing their numbers. I've been a lurker for years, as are several of my online and IRL friends. If this is a role you play because you get real satifsfaction from it, you deserve sympathy, understanding, and the attention of a mental health professional.

Everything else in your unasked-for reply is ridiculous, but I won't spend further words on you because they're wasted either way. Rave all you want. I'm done with you.

My original post stands here for others with the empathy to consider the impact of their words, and I hope everyone else can continue with the main topic of this thread before Post #26 introduced a sour note.

 

[alohadave]

. You're an attention-seeker of the highest order. Enough that it gives you satisfaction to seem behaviorally disregulated to many.

This is not his first account. He has toned down the delivery, but not the message. He's still a troll, but he's learned not to directly attack people.

 

[Britva415]

I really hoped for an conclusion here because I just cant read the stories from oneagainst

Sounds more like this person can't not read your stories.

They're either disappointed that you're going to keep going without them and they won't know how it ends, so, you've grabbed them and made them care. Or, they're going to keep reading anyway, so, you've grabbed them and made them care.

Or - they just think it's your responsibility to end where they want you to.

Just keep writing. I get that this comment hit you in the feels, but it only indicates how engaged this commenter is, or, how entitled they are.

I haven't read any of your stories as far as I remember, but based on this comment alone, it looks like you're doing great as a writer.

 

[Britva415]

This reply isn't aimed at the poster above, who appears to enjoy inciting negativity whenever he/she/it can.
But I do see the word "narcissist"

and you reacted to it.

Then were shocked - shocked - when they responded.

They baited, you took it.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Oh, Tilan. Of course you quoted me and replied. Of course you did. You couldn't resist, could you? Even when I stated that my post was directed at everyone except you.


Citation needed. Without proof, this is a lie that amounts to defamation. Even if she did say that in some interview, it doesn't negate the pertinent issue. Which is your irresponsible use of a clinical term on a forum of people you don't know well enough to diagnose, even if you were a clinician. That point stands regardless of your deflection tactics.


Really? Well, in that case, there are two possibilities here.
1. You honestly believe that you're a messiah with the task of solving the world's greatest problems, and that the right way of achieving this is by sitting in your house/office/café, being combative on a smutty story site. If so, you deserve sympathy, understanding, and the attention of a mental health professional.
2. You're an attention-seeker of the highest order. Enough that it gives you satisfaction to seem behaviorally disregulated to many. Lots more people see your posts than you might realize. Don't forget this is an open forum with plenty of lurkers who aren't even logged in, so there's no way of knowing their numbers. I've been a lurker for years, as are several of my online and IRL friends. If this is a role you play because you get real satifsfaction from it, you deserve sympathy, understanding, and the attention of a mental health professional.

Everything else in your unasked-for reply is ridiculous, but I won't spend further words on you because they're wasted either way. Rave all you want. I'm done with you.

My original post stands here for others with the empathy to consider the impact of their words, and I hope everyone else can continue with the main topic of this thread before Post #26 introduced a sour note.

3.Parody account.

 

[Auden James]

It's psychological, exploring something that is very dark but is ultimately a love story, touching on PTSD and Autassassinophilia, and NC/R was probably the best category for that.

If it's ultimately a love story, I suspect it's essentially just another kind of "hard-core romance" (cf. Eva Illouz's book of the same name). MelissaBaby spoke of "self help bullshit," but in Illouz's analysis it's exactly this merging of self-help and romance that explains the immense success with the—overwhelmingly—female readership, for romantic fantasy and self-help guides are two of the most popular reading genres with females.

If what you're providing here is essentially self-help for "darker" matters or a kind of incentive for "self-therapy" re whatever personal "trauma" your female readership may prefer to relate to by means of your narrative, it's only a question of keeping your narrative open or "empathetic" enough to be of use to your female readership in precisely the aforementioned way. Since you're talking only in general terms about what you've written, it's hardly possible for an outsider to make an informed judgment on whether you've succeeded or not in this regard. Hence it's up to you, my dear, to make this judgment!

It's probably going to be "too painful and disturbing" for the general Lit audience, and that's from someone who just published a story about a terminally-ill MC. Even with the right tagging and the boilerplate disclaimers on triggering, maybe it's just too much, full stop. This is about fun, after all, right? People don't come to Lit to be reminded of things they maybe want to forget. There's a difference I think between writing erotica and writing hard sex fiction.

Do I understand you correctely that you think erotica is "about fun" and hard sex fiction is about—well, what exactly?—"painful and disturbing" things? Painful and disturbing in what way? Would a jungle porn story with cannibals and a tear-jerking erotic romance both count as hard sex fiction in your book? I mean, in their respective ways, they both may very well be painful and disturbing for their readers, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Beholders_Eye]

I have a little personal definition:

Porn is hamburger.

Erotica is Prime Rib.

But I will have to think about where 'sex fiction' falls along those two end points of the spectrum...

 

[djrip]

I have a little personal definition:

Porn is hamburger.

Erotica is Prime Rib.

But I will have to think about where 'sex fiction' falls along those two end points of the spectrum...

Meatloaf?

 

[oneagainst]

If it's ultimately a love story, I suspect it's essentially just another kind of "hard-core romance" (cf. Eva Illouz's book of the same name). MelissaBaby spoke of "self help bullshit," but in Illouz's analysis it's exactly this merging of self-help and romance that explains the immense success with the—overwhelmingly—female readership, for romantic fantasy and self-help guides are two of the most popular reading genres with females.

If what you're providing here is essentially self-help for "darker" matters or a kind of incentive for "self-therapy" re whatever personal "trauma" your female readership may prefer to relate to by means of your narrative, it's only a question of keeping your narrative open or "empathetic" enough to be of use to your female readership in precisely the aforementioned way. Since you're talking only in general terms about what you've written, it's hardly possible for an outsider to make an informed judgment on whether you've succeeded or not in this regard. Hence it's up to you, my dear, to make this judgment!


Do I understand you correctely that you think erotica is "about fun" and hard sex fiction is about—well, what exactly?—"painful and disturbing" things? Painful and disturbing in what way? Would a jungle porn story with cannibals and a tear-jerking erotic romance both count as hard sex fiction in your book? I mean, in their respective ways, they both may very well be painful and disturbing for their readers, wouldn't you agree?

Misc asides in this thread aside, and also to answer @Yellowbirdy - in different genres, there's a spectrum, like commercial fiction to literature (see other thread), or science fiction ranges from space opera to hard SF with Asimov, so isn't there the same thing here: from sex romps through to something harder? A bunch of authors here (and I have these stories too) write kick-the-doors-in knockabout stuff with weird contraptions, or ridiculous premises, or tentacles, all for the fun of it, and I guess my point is that a lot of readers turn up here for that escapism.

Then, we're putting that cheek-by-jowl with something more difficult (as @MelissaBaby mentioned above) in the same story list. I was reaching for a name for it ('hard sex fiction') because it feels very different in that it's an attempt to inspect the heart of it, the reasons why the characters are as they are. It's not so much about climaxes every 1,500 words, as about exploring the depths of what drives the person to do what they do and in doing so opening up an under-explored worldview.

It's a nicely-made point that there is a readership that wants to get down to that level, and yes, publish (with warnings up front) and just see who reads the story. But I learned from Alena's Game that you can do all the prefacing and people go down the rabbit hole anyway and struggle with it, which is fine if it's outrageous femdom, but there's a responsibility to handle topics like suicidal ideation more carefully, hence to reluctance to just let rip and therefore my question at the top.

 

[onehitwanda]

I’m thinking about my story where the main character suffers a miscarriage. I did not get any feedback complaining that it was an inappropriate subject on Lit. What I did get were multiple messages from people thanking me for telling a story that addressed something they had gone through in their lives.

There are lots of broken people out there who sometimes just need to feel that they are not entirely alone.

 

[Yellowbirdy]

Misc asides in this thread aside, and also to answer @Yellowbirdy - in different genres, there's a spectrum, like commercial fiction to literature (see other thread), or science fiction ranges from space opera to hard SF with Asimov, so isn't there the same thing here: from sex romps through to something harder? A bunch of authors here (and I have these stories too) write kick-the-doors-in knockabout stuff with weird contraptions, or ridiculous premises, or tentacles, all for the fun of it, and I guess my point is that a lot of readers turn up here for that escapism.

Then, we're putting that cheek-by-jowl with something more difficult (as @MelissaBaby mentioned above) in the same story list. I was reaching for a name for it ('hard sex fiction') because it feels very different in that it's an attempt to inspect the heart of it, the reasons why the characters are as they are. It's not so much about climaxes every 1,500 words, as about exploring the depths of what drives the person to do what they do and in doing so opening up an under-explored worldview.

It's a nicely-made point that there is a readership that wants to get down to that level, and yes, publish (with warnings up front) and just see who reads the story. But I learned from Alena's Game that you can do all the prefacing and people go down the rabbit hole anyway and struggle with it, which is fine if it's outrageous femdom, but there's a responsibility to handle topics like suicidal ideation more carefully, hence to reluctance to just let rip and therefore my question at the top.

Okay, Thanks. I get that.

 

[Auden James]

I was reaching for a name for it ('hard sex fiction') because it feels very different in that it's an attempt to inspect the heart of it, the reasons why the characters are as they are. It's not so much about climaxes every 1,500 words, as about exploring the depths of what drives the person to do what they do and in doing so opening up an under-explored worldview.

If that's what you want to label 'hard sex fiction', and if I understand what you want to describe with it correcty, then I'd say that you risk your writing ceasing to be not only erotica, but erotic writing as such! For you'd seem to aim then at something altogether different, let's say psychological writing or writing a character study, which is not at all necessarily coextensive with erotica or erotic writing as such.

Rather what you most probaby would end up doing, at least to my mind, would be presenting your readers with an in-depth portrayal of your MC sprinkled with some sex as a crude means to keep up their attention to whatever matter you deem "dark" or "painful and disturbing." The not-crude, but rather refined and sincere way would be to tackle whatever sordid matter you want to write about head-on without stepping around it by making more or less explicit and extensive sexual detours. Of course, that would presuppose complete confidence in your writing and narrative skills, as there would then be no easy way to distract from it by using sex as diversionary tactics.

But that's just my take on the ideas you presented here under the term of 'hard sex fiction.'

 

[oneagainst]

If that's what you want to label 'hard sex fiction', and if I understand what you want to describe with it correcty, then I'd say that you risk your writing ceasing to be not only erotica, but erotic writing as such! For you'd seem to aim then at something altogether different, let's say psychological writing or writing a character study, which is not at all necessarily coextensive with erotica or erotic writing as such.

Rather what you most probaby would end up doing, at least to my mind, would be presenting your readers with an in-depth portrayal of your MC sprinkled with some sex as a crude means to keep up their attention to whatever matter you deem "dark" or "painful and disturbing." The not-crude, but rather refined and sincere way would be to tackle whatever sordid matter you want to write about head-on without stepping around it by making more or less explicit and extensive sexual detours. Of course, that would presuppose complete confidence in your writing and narrative skills, as there would then be no easy way to distract from it by using sex as diversionary tactics.

But that's just my take on the ideas you presented here under the term of 'hard sex fiction.'

I think it's specifically about the way that the MC is hardwired and how that unrequited sexual need drives their evolution that defines the concept of "sex fiction" as opposed to "smut"*. Therefore sex isn't an adjunct, like throwing a hotel room romp into the middle of a story... it is the story. The MC is transformed through the process into accepting a new life radically different from where they started out.

And yes, to make it believable and also readable pushes the skill set. But, you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take.

* said with fondness for smut as a genre... like I said, there's nothing wrong with a romping stroke story.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I came in because i was curious to find out the “difference” that you authors seem to accept. I am not saying there is no difference or that there is, but i am curious about if you think there is and if so what is it?

There are certainly different styles of story, but I think trying to draw a hard line between "erotica" and "porn"/"sex stories" is very often about respectability, like the way some people started calling their preferred comic books "graphic novels". Some will focus more on the porny aspects of the story than others, but at the end of the day, if you post it here somebody is probably going to wank to it.

 

[Rob_Royale]

I try not to worry about labels. Rob's Dirty Stories works for me.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Due to circumstances beyond our control, the part of Lovecraft68 will now be performed by ElectricBlue66.

Electricblue was always his stand-in. He long ago memorized the script for just such a moment as this.

 

[Thorlol]

So... I've got a pretty thick skin and across 110+ stories I've been called out for just about everything, good and bad. Then this came up in @SamYork 's comments on A Place Beyond The Horizon:

@Thorlol : "I am actually disappointed. [story spoiler questions] I really hoped for an conclusion here because I just cant read the stories from oneagainst. Way too painful and disturbing"

I'm glad they took the time to comment. It shows an honesty and a commitment to the storyline, but of all the (in this case indirect) comments about my work I've ever read this is only the second one that stopped me in my tracks.

I've finished 'The Light Between The Trees', all 17 ch and 82k words, and have it scheduled to start rolling out from next week. I think it's the best thing I've ever done, with some of the deepest characters and it twists and turns in all sorts of unexpected ways, and it's *hot*. It's psychological, exploring something that is very dark but is ultimately a love story, touching on PTSD and Autassassinophilia, and NC/R was probably the best category for that. I really love it, and it was meant to be the last backstory before I finished the massive story arc with Only Consenting Adults, but now I'm thinking I should shelve it.

It's probably going to be "too painful and disturbing" for the general Lit audience, and that's from someone who just published a story about a terminally-ill MC. Even with the right tagging and the boilerplate disclaimers on triggering, maybe it's just too much, full stop. This is about fun, after all, right? People don't come to Lit to be reminded of things they maybe want to forget. There's a difference I think between writing erotica and writing hard sex fiction.

Dont let my comment influence you in any way. It was the just the truth. I really hoped for a conclusion by SamYork. He touched the darkness just on the surface and the character Adrian was still walking on the bright side of reality. I know this wont be the case anymore with your continuation. The only thing left for me is to wait for the end of the storyline and look where he will end up or as what. Doesnt mean your writing is bad, its actually amazing but I just cant stomach it.

 

[oneagainst]

Dont let my comment influence you in any way. It was the just the truth. I really hoped for a conclusion by SamYork. He touched the darkness just on the surface and the character Adrian was still walking on the bright side of reality. I know this wont be the case anymore with your continuation. The only thing left for me is to wait for the end of the storyline and look where he will end up or as what. Doesnt mean your writing is bad, its actually amazing but I just cant stomach it.

Thanks for your honest response - I think I took it in the spirit it was given. I did end up releasing the next story in the end, putting disclaimers and warnings in the top and trying to tag accurately - and put it into noncon as well... The Light Between The Trees went live at the weekend.

I'm in the middle of final editing for the next story - Only Consenting Adults - in which Aidan's arc is resolved. I'm looking again at the narrative in light of what you wrote above, trying to get the balance right.

 

[Thorlol]

Sounds more like this person can't not read your stories.

They're either disappointed that you're going to keep going without them and they won't know how it ends, so, you've grabbed them and made them care. Or, they're going to keep reading anyway, so, you've grabbed them and made them care.

Or - they just think it's your responsibility to end where they want you to.

Just keep writing. I get that this comment hit you in the feels, but it only indicates how engaged this commenter is, or, how entitled they are.

I haven't read any of your stories as far as I remember, but based on this comment alone, it looks like you're doing great as a writer.

Kinda true but also not. I started with one of the lighter stories by oneagainst. Oxygen Games got me hooked because it was superb writing. After that I made the mistake and jumped into Alena's Game. Gone was the lightness and it became suddenly very dark. It reminded me alot about abusive relationships I had to work with frequently.

Still, I read it until the end and decided afterwards that I cant read something like that again. Light D/S is alright, even better with proper aftercare but that was just something else, but hey it was my own fault to venture into NC/R.

I actually wanted to follow up on the character Cassie because she was intriguing in how she dealt with what happend as a medical professional. But decided against it in the end because I couldnt see how it could get 'lighter' after she already was so deep into the swamp.

So yes, you are right in your assumption that I care about the stories. They are very engaging. But I am not disappointed that they continue. In a way its part of the charme. All of those stories are interwoven with each other. And there is a wide audience for it. But like I said, I cant stomach emotional/physical abuse and conditioning because of personal experience with it. And there was a lot of foreshadowing at the end in 'A Place Beyond The Horizon' by SamYork.

So in the end I am more disappointed in myself for not being able to just put certain stuff behind me and not letting it bother me. Even if its just fiction. But thats no ones fault. And my original comment was simply too short to convey the whole reason why I was disappointed. It certainly wasnt because oneagainst is lacking ability as an author in any way.

 

[djrip]

Kinda true but also not. I started with one of the lighter stories by oneagainst. Oxygen Games got me hooked because it was superb writing. After that I made the mistake and jumped into Alena's Game. Gone was the lightness and it became suddenly very dark. It reminded me alot about abusive relationships I had to work with frequently.

Still, I read it until the end and decided afterwards that I cant read something like that again. Light D/S is alright, even better with proper aftercare but that was just something else, but hey it was my own fault to venture into NC/R.

I actually wanted to follow up on the character Cassie because she was intriguing in how she dealt with what happend as a medical professional. But decided against it in the end because I couldnt see how it could get 'lighter' after she already was so deep into the swamp.

So yes, you are right in your assumption that I care about the stories. They are very engaging. But I am not disappointed that they continue. In a way its part of the charme. All of those stories are interwoven with each other. And there is a wide audience for it. But like I said, I cant stomach emotional/physical abuse and conditioning because of personal experience with it. And there was a lot of foreshadowing at the end in 'A Place Beyond The Horizon' by SamYork.

So in the end I am more disappointed in myself for not being able to just put certain stuff behind me and not letting it bother me. Even if its just fiction. But thats no ones fault. And my original comment was simply too short to convey the whole reason why I was disappointed. It certainly wasnt because oneagainst is lacking ability as an author in any way.

This is a level of engagement I think most authors would love to have from a reader. I mean the story means so much to you that it's too painful to read, it seems like. That strikes me as some powerful communication.

 

[oneagainst]

So in the end I am more disappointed in myself for not being able to just put certain stuff behind me and not letting it bother me.

Yeah, hence this thread. We're all on here for entertainment, not to revisit old wounds, and the current story will have all sorts of triggers I guess. The last scene is the best thing I think I've ever written but it's a trek to get there through some pretty rough terrain. Hopefully the tagging and disclaimers do the job.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Yeah, hence this thread. We're all on here for entertainment, not to revisit old wounds, and the current story will have all sorts of triggers I guess. The last scene is the best thing I think I've ever written but it's a trek to get there through some pretty rough terrain. Hopefully the tagging and disclaimers do the job.

Some of us have definitely revisited old wounds here.

 

[oneagainst]

Some of us have definitely revisited old wounds here.

Cathartic for us maybe, but not so much for the readers? Or maybe it's a common good in the end?