Evidence?

[Problem Child]

The thing I like about debating sd412 is he always backpedals so far that he ends up back where you started.

 

[Rick DeVille]

I repeat

Can we just kill the guy, destroy his organization and move on? Pass the beer.

 

[Spinaroonie]

"I'm not saying don't blame the Middle East entirely..."

1) So we should blame the middle east entirely? Make some sense dude...you're fucking loopy. I said we should keep a close eye on suspicious people from the mid-east, that's all.

And I'm saying don't write them off

2) Don't get self-righteous with me, sd. I wasn't trying to "pump up the stats", you shitbird. If you add up all the people in the towers, and the pentagon, and the planes, I believe it come closer to 5000 than 4000 anyway. Besides, even if it was only a hundred it stops becoming a numbers game. Stop trying to score points on technicalities because you have no argument.

Everything is a numbers game these days.

3) You're not sure of anything, so quit guessing.

Pretty sure your dogmatic ways won't stop from voicing my opinions.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I didn't say the man wasn't a killer or a terrorist. I never said that man was a saint or anything. I'm just saying there are many other factions that could've done it.

So what the fuck is your point? You've said you're sure he's responsible, but that you're looking for other viewpoints. Are we supposed to be convincing you of what you already said you're sure of?

We have trials, not because we know for a fact that someone did something, but because there's enough evidence to think that they might have. Are you saying that we have so little evidence, that if a grand jury was convened they'd let him go?

 

[Problem Child]

sd-

You're groveling now. Quit while you're not too far behind.

 

[Spinaroonie]

I repeat

So we go in and kill the guy. Somebody'll step right in his place and they'll still organize against us and eventually something else will be blown up. It's bred into those people that the US hates them. The only way to stop that would be to let Israel be taken over by the Palestinians or to invade the place and never leave and educate each generations that we aren't all that bad.

 

[Calamity Jane]

So we go in and kill the guy. Somebody'll step right in his place and they'll still organize against us and eventually something else will be blown up. It's bred into those people that the US hates them. The only way to stop that would be to let Israel be taken over by the Palestinians or to invade the place and never leave and educate each generations that we aren't all that bad.

so, you're suggesting that we either support full scale genocide, or brainwash future generations of arabs?

 

[Spinaroonie]

So what the fuck is your point? You've said you're sure he's responsible, but that you're looking for other viewpoints. Are we supposed to be convincing you of what you already said you're sure of?

We have trials, not because we know for a fact that someone did something, but because there's enough evidence to think that they might have. Are you saying that we have so little evidence, that if a grand jury was convened they'd let him go?

I said I think he is responsable. That may just because of the brainwashing by the vacuum tube. Sure is a different thing. The different viewpoints is because the US isn't right on everything. We've made mistakes before, we'll make them again. Are you too far set in your ways to question them?

I mean look at what everbody says about the people who flew the planes into the buildings. The US people and the President's official response is that it's an act of cowardice. I don't think I could kamikazee a plane in a building, assuring myself of certain death. I doubt anyone really could, we're programmed into self-preservation too much.

 

[Spinaroonie]

so, you're suggesting that we either support full scale genocide, or brainwash future generations of arabs?

No, I'm saying that we don't have a good option. How many more attacks will be inspired with the death of OBL and countless Taliban and Afghans?

 

[Calamity Jane]

I said I think he is responsable. That may just because of the brainwashing by the vacuum tube.

so turn off the fucking television

I mean look at what everbody says about the people who flew the planes into the buildings. The US people and the President's official response is that it's an act of cowardice. I don't think I could kamikazee a plane in a building, assuring myself of certain death. I doubt anyone really could, we're programmed into self-preservation too much.

and i sucked at softball because i couldn't voluntarily throw myself onto the ground in order to slide... that doesn't mean i think that doing so is a particularly brave act. the terrorists were cowards, in my book, because they didn't face their supposed enemy, they snuck up in a dark alley and stabbed us in the back. how is that NOT cowardly?

 

[Problem Child]

I said I think he is responsable. That may just because of the brainwashing by the vacuum tube. Sure is a different thing. The different viewpoints is because the US isn't right on everything. We've made mistakes before, we'll make them again. Are you too far set in your ways to question them?

So...let me get this right. Bear with me. I'm dogmatic, and you are openminded...you're thought process is clear. Yet, you have been brainwashed by the vacuum tube. Yet, again, PCG is too set in her ways to too far set in her ways to question. Do you understand why we think you are just a little wishy-washy here?

I mean look at what everbody says about the people who flew the planes into the buildings. The US people and the President's official response is that it's an act of cowardice. I don't think I could kamikazee a plane in a building, assuring myself of certain death. I doubt anyone really could, we're programmed into self-preservation too much.

So, again, let me understand. You are really going to literally equate calling the terrorist cowards with your admiration for their bravery in committing suicide?

Let me spell this out for you. It is cowardice to kill innocent men women and children. You say that you don't think you "could kamikazee a plane in a building, assuring myself of certain death. I doubt anyone really could.", implying that it's a really brave thing to do. Yes, these assholes had nerves of steel, and fanatical devotion to what they were doing. They are still cowardly motherfuckers for slaughtering thousands of innocents.

Is any of this sinking in, or have you had too many bowls tonight?

You, my paranoid friend, are undoubtedly the most confused motherfucker on this board. And that includes Yayati.

 

[Lost Cause]

You guys would tell me the sky isn't blue if you thought that acknowledging that it is would be a positive for Bush or the United States! You need some serious help with your mental health....tsk...tsk...

 

[Marxist]

Somewhere deep in the basement of Langley they're taking all of this down and keeping track of how stupid people can react to a little news.

If I have a secret, why PUBLICLY sway in the wind over whether to release it or not? Duh, because I'm going to anyway. The American people and the press would have Bush's ass in a sling for not showing the tape.

Which brings us to why. Obviously, the Bush administration feels that there is doubt (real or not) lingering in the international community over the worth of a sustained fight against this kind of terror.

Does this mean Osama didn't do it? HELL NO!

But it does get back to SD's original point about thinking critically and not simply being puppets on Bush's string.

You're being had, hoodwinked, manipulated, and treated to a show. This isn't the first time nor the last that a President has used the press to do his bidding and it won't be the last.

 

[Problem Child]

"Ah'm yo' puppet...ah'm yo' puppet...whoa-ooo..."

This tape ain't gonna be exhibit one at OBL's trial, which undoubtedly will probably never occur. I don't think this little video is much evidence, but it doesn't help his case. I also don't think that it's being played up much as "real evidence" as sd would like us to think it is. It'll be a dead news story before the week is over. The press is pushing it because they don't have much else to push right now. Bombing runs get boring after the first 500 or so, and the northern alliance aren't taking over the whole country in three days like they were last week.

There's plenty of evidence for this atrocity as well as his past ones. I don't think he needs to be given the benefit of proof beyond resonable doubt, only a preponderance of the evidence, and there is enough proof for that.

 

[SINthysist]

God, I hate to agree with DCL

but our government had much evidence well before this tape, and the British have been announcing to the world that they have evidence for some time now. As a citizen you have to take there word on it for now. Our allies have.

Nice try Laurel, there you go again. That hated jackle, shrub, went right before both houses and announced war and other than Hillary and her damned junior high school eye rolling act, to a man and a woman, they all stood and said here here and along with the American public, continue to do so. WE ARE AT WAR, so stop trying to de-legitimize Bush and his actions.

Look at the polls. If nothing else we learned from eight years of Clintonism that all right acts are to be found in poll numbers...

Talk about partisan flip-flopping.

sd, if you are that paranoid of the government, have you thought maybe about Canada or Australia. There are some good buys for Argentinian land right now if you have US dollars.

 

[PHANTOM5875]

*raises a hand*

I just have to say.. That if we kill him, by military action or through tribunal, his blood will fertilze the earth for a thousand more like him..

There's nothing that will further a cause like the leader becoming a martyr.

yeah, yeah....and I'm SURE there were Germans who cried in their beer when the fuhrer bit the big one but I haven't seen a 4th Reich rise up out of the ashes either.

Martyr, smartyr. *Click!* Now, step aside....(sighting in for a clean shot....) Step right up haters and murderers. We've got enough to go around for all of you. Better luck next go around.

Let's put these mad dogs out of our misery.

Phantom.

 

[WriterDom]

Re: God, I hate to agree with DCL

and other than Hillary and her damned junior high school eye rolling act

LOL

 

[Purple Haze]

Second-guessing our government? It was allowed on this board before September 11. As a matter of fact, many of the people that have slapped an American flag on everything they own since September 12th, had nothing but contempt for the government's doings before we were dropping bombs. I am angry as hell about what happened in New York City, I don't know anyone that isn't still. I'm angry that that I can't get out of Target with a stolen pack of gum, but shit-heads armed only with box-cutters can steal a fucking jet full of people. It makes me pull my hair out to hear the idiots blame this on a weakened military. We're spending billions to bomb the shit out of a country where most of the people had never even heard of a World Trade Center. Ain't this fun? All because the airlines and the FAA didn't bother to secure their airplanes, let alone their customers. I am hoping to God that our government didn't finger the wrong organization to satisfy an angry America, and so are a lot of people. This guy will NOT be surprised if it turns out that we were chasing the wrong people. Just angrier.

 

[SINthysist]

Yesterday on talk radio

A man calls in having been in three major airports with a swiss army knife in his backpack that he forgot was in there along with a knife in his cooking utensils. Both were never detected, but...

In Florida (don't remember which airport) he had to remove his toothpick from his mouth in order to board!

Agree with you on airlines getting a pass on culpability. It is a point I have made before. This was not the first incident and we did bust one ring in the Phillipeans which had exactly the same plans.

Whether he is completely to blaim or not has become a moot point. He has become a symbol and a rallying point for the dark side of his religion and hence, must go into that good night.

 

[Purple Haze]

Re: Yesterday on talk radio

Whether he is completely to blaim or not has become a moot point. He has become a symbol and a rallying point for the dark side of his religion and hence, must go into that good night.

His religon? His religon has nothing to do with it, I hope.

That is so fucked up.

 

[registered "^^"]

I still say give him a sex change and make him live under his own rules for women!

 

[TN_Vixen]

so Hazie..

do you think by making the security check people members of the Federal gov't will help? I don't. You still have baggage handlers at the curb, baggage handlers taking already checked bags to pack onto the planes. What's to stop these people from infiltrating the system and posing as employees in order to plant bombs, etc?

 

[YogiBare]

I am someone who voted for Gore and still thinks that Shrub stole the election. However, I support him 100% on his response to September 11th. Why? Because our country was attacked and it is my patriotic duty to support our President in leading our battle against a very dangerous enemy. I still don't like his domestic and economic policies, but that's OK. I think he is doing a great job in countering terrorism, and without that, everything else is only hypothetical.

In order to really understand what is going on I believe that we Americans all have to make a major paradigm shift in our thinking. We want to apply the legal protections we have, niceties of our civilization, such as due process, rules of evidence, and assumption of innocence until proven guilty, to a group of people who do not ascribe to our notions of civility and act accordingly. If we do so, we will give them enough rope to hang us all. To succeed and to survive, we must think like they think, administer justice as they administer justice. A state of war exists between us. Just kill the bastards on sight.

 

[Spinaroonie]

So, again, let me understand. You are really going to literally equate calling the terrorist cowards with your admiration for their bravery in committing suicide?

Let me spell this out for you. It is cowardice to kill innocent men women and children. You say that you don't think you "could kamikazee a plane in a building, assuring myself of certain death. I doubt anyone really could.", implying that it's a really brave thing to do. Yes, these assholes had nerves of steel, and fanatical devotion to what they were doing. They are still cowardly motherfuckers for slaughtering thousands of innocents.

Is any of this sinking in, or have you had too many bowls tonight?
You, my paranoid friend, are undoubtedly the most confused motherfucker on this board. And that includes Yayati.

I never said I admired them. I don't admire anybody who makes a plan to die, from the hijackers, to the Tibetan monks who'd burn themselves in protest. When you make a plan to die and carry it out, that's pretty stupid, weather you're a religous fanatic to a guy taking a bunch of sleeping pills and never waking up.

PC, can we at least compromise and say that I'm less messed up than Kinky Love?

 

[digger51]

db has been so busy counting trees that he is now totally lost in the forest
Yogi has made the points much better than I can that db is trying to apply standards that the terrorists never applied to their victims and that do not apply in any of the countries of origin of the perpetrators of this act
Too much attention is being payed to OBL both here and in the media,because he is the figure head and symbol
What's being done now is dismantling the largest,best organized and best financed terrorist orginazation the world has seen
I am sure the military and politicians are happy to have all the attention on OBL,while they quietly go about their job
I cringe at the thought,but the big heroes are probably the accountants sitting in some grey cubicle making sure the funding will never again be available for an operation of the scope of Sept 11th
As to a trial,I am sure it was decided a long time ago the OBL will never see trial.He may end like Che Guevara,captured by locals and dead of a CIA bullet,or more likely a charred corpse will be pulled from a cave and said to be "believed to be" OBL
Terrorists thrive on publicity and martyrs,so I am sure a lot of planning has been done to provide as little of either to the people we are fighting
And if some would then like to believe that OBL is alive and living in Hitlers old house in Argentina .......so be it