extreme makeover- would you?

[Keroin]

Hollywood is fucked. Cosmetic surgery is a demented hydra arm of capitalism, but it's all insecurity based out there.

What if your own terms began to veer radically away from themselves, K? You're a naturally attractive woman. I consider myself to be as well, however I mean I really relate to what rida said, because I've had the experience of morphing at a much faster rate than just aging. Of looking in the mirror and going "well that's not "me." I mean maybe you're different and you'd accept and absorb it all as "you" and that's great. I know that there's things I can't. Maybe age won't be an issue because it takes a hell of a long time. I mean I definitely don't give a rat's ass about my "fine lines" at this moment - but we have things that we visually see as "us" and things that don't fit that.

Until that happened to me I would have been as completely "surgery do not want, lame."

You've probably had a good whack in the orbital or on the lip in the course of your career and looked in the mirror and forgotten for a second and everything was "off." It's a feeling like that, but on a more troubling level, assuming you're at a point where you know your injuries aren't going to show in any way permanently and you have six weeks to go.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense.

Yeah, you are. I totally get what you're saying.

Actually, ironically, it's probably my work in the film biz that helped me to shed my insecurities about my appearance. I was regularly "someone else", and those roles ranged from a 16 year old girl to a heroin junkie to a 100 year old woman to a rotting zombie. I have been fat, thin, male, alien, and dead. I could sit down and eat lunch with a group of people, with my eyeball hanging out and my face black and blue and they still liked me, they still laughed at my jokes, they still found me interesting. I honestly stopped noticing what I looked like. After awhile, you start to realize that what you present yourself as on the outside is really secondary.

And hey, I'm 40, I do not look in the mirror and see the same girl I was 20 years ago. She's gone...bon voyage youthful freshness! There are wrinkles and strange little marks and dots on my face, new moles (beauty marks, I choose to call them) seem to pop up every day, my eyelids are beginning to droop, my teeth have been bashed and smashed and put back together as well as possible but, you know, they're different now, I have scars, my small boobs have even shown signs of succumbing to gravity, etc, etc. I used to get ID'd all the time in bars and liquor stores... it's been about three years since the last time that happened. It is the end of an era and it's sad...but it's also wonderful.

I guess, what I feel is that there are so many people telling us women that we need to be young, we need to be perfect, that it's probably good to have a few, small voices, such as mine, who stand firm and say, "No, you are fine the way your are."

See, you're perfect! You're hourglass shaped, even if it's not a extreme, you have breasts, but they aren't too big for your frame (and we've seen them - you have nothing to complain of when it comes to your boobs), you slim but not skinny . . . Plus you're tall (comparatively - I'm 5' tall) blonde and gorgeous. If you wanted anything done to you I might have email you a smack.

Har, you crack me up Gracie. Don't worry, I like my boobs just fine...now.

But here's a good point. See, you say you see me as perfect and gorgeous but there were a lot of years I felt terrible about how I looked - and that was when I was younger and everything was firmer! And I think there are too many women just like me (as a young girl/woman), who look in the mirror, at a lovely face and body and see something ugly and disgusting. Who think they need to be "fixed".

LOL, how I used to hate being tall. All the "cute" girls were short and small and adorable and I felt like Girlzilla walking among them.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm still trying to figure out how wanting twenty pounds of tits removed is caving to the patriarchy.

 

[satindesire]

I'm still trying to figure out how wanting twenty pounds of tits removed is caving to the patriarchy.

Thaaaank you. Hi5.

 

[graceanne]

There isn't an inch of you I'm not in love with Luna.

Duh. That's cause Luna is so incredibly able

Har, you crack me up Gracie. Don't worry, I like my boobs just fine...now.

But here's a good point. See, you say you see me as perfect and gorgeous but there were a lot of years I felt terrible about how I looked - and that was when I was younger and everything was firmer! And I think there are too many women just like me (as a young girl/woman), who look in the mirror, at a lovely face and body and see something ugly and disgusting. Who think they need to be "fixed".

LOL, how I used to hate being tall. All the "cute" girls were short and small and adorable and I felt like Girlzilla walking among them.

I guarantee everyone of them was admiring your legs. Especially those of us who hate being 'delicate' and 'cute'. *gag*

I'm still trying to figure out how wanting twenty pounds of tits removed is caving to the patriarchy.

QFT

 

[Netzach]

I'm still trying to figure out how wanting twenty pounds of tits removed is caving to the patriarchy.

Uh no that's caving to back pain.

 

[Keroin]

I'm still trying to figure out how wanting twenty pounds of tits removed is caving to the patriarchy.

I don't think having 20 pounds of tits removed falls into what I'm talking about. I had a mole removed when I was a kid because the doctor was worried it could be cancerous, same kind of deal - not about caving to pressure or wanting to look better sans mole, just about being healthy.

The statements I've made don't apply to ALL women or ALL kinds of plastic surgery and I never asserted that they did.

 

[rida]

I totally agree that the whole beauty and image industry is created to push insecurities where there should be none and too many women opt for plastic surgery for all the wrong reasons.

However I'd rather focus on fostering critical thinking and responsibilities for choices rather than demonizing a whole industry.

As an aside, I never felt better about the way I look, body wise, than how I've been feeling in the last couple of years. And even during the dreadful teenage years I never thought once about wanting plastic surgery to change anything in my face or body. OK, beside having my legs made longer, if it were possible.

I have a college step-daughter that has been obsessed with her nose for as long as I can remember. Her nose is fine and she is wanting a nose job for all the wrong reasons. Hopefully what I've been telling her all along will help her do the right thing for herself. If not, hopefully it will not end up creating bigger problem than the ones she thought it would fix.






(And from reading Netzach and Stella_Omega exchange, I think I just discovered a new interest: women with dicks having sex with each other and possibly me .... the best of both worlds! - no objectifying offense meant )

 

[Keroin]

I have a college step-daughter that has been obsessed with her nose for as long as I can remember. Her nose is fine and she is wanting a nose job for all the wrong reasons. Hopefully what I've been telling her all along will help her do the right thing for herself. If not, hopefully it will not end up creating bigger problem than the ones she thought it would fix.

This makes me sad.

 

[rida]

This makes me sad.

Yep.
And on that account I'm trying to rise my girl with good body image. Not living in the US, hopefully, it will make it easier.

It is not that there is no pressure on body image on Japanese media. The images of thin cute petite girls are everywhere, same as the desire of having Westerners-like eyes. But there is more emphasis on diets and exercise when it comes to weight loss than surgery. As for the monolid issue, they sell a "eye lid folder and temporary glue" (like the one for fake eyelashes).

I'm sure thought that for the women in the entertainment industry the pressure is much much higher and unhealthy (they were having a story on TV the other day on a woman that had silicon shots in her face and now her face is all deformed )

That being said, there are plenty of clinic specialized in genital plastic surgery for women ...

 

[satindesire]

Duh. That's cause Luna is so incredibly able

Luna is super loveable. Not only is she smart, funny and kind, she's also beautiful, and what's not to love about a woman like that?

And there's something to be said about a woman with an 'unusual' nose. Mine's -unusual- and certainly not the perfect button that many people covet, but it fits my face perfectly and I think it's super cute.

I especially like Netz's nose. I think it's awesome.

 

[graceanne]

.

I especially like Netz's nose. I think it's awesome.

Me, too. I was getting all ready to stage a protest, then I saw that if she got plastic surgery she wouldn't do anything to her nose; her nose is awesome.

 

[Netzach]

I have definitely seen before and after pics where all character is stripped from the person in a creepy way. What's weird is that I usually see this on men

Maybe my perception's off or something but M and I were looking at this one clinician's site - the women were restrained and subtle in their differences - a VERY receeded jaw adjusted - a nose taken from immense to distinguished, big discolorations smoothed out. The men were - weird - from faces with character to overhaul devoid of any.

 

[JMohegan]

If it were actually possible for a man to have his genitals enlarged to a significant degree through cosmetic surgery that was no more complicated than breast augmentation (a prospect which is not possible currently), do you think that many men would have this surgery performed? Why or why not?

If I had the dick equivalent of a cocktail weenie, sure I would. As it is, no.

As for other guys, I assume the decision would depend on a combination of where they naturally fall on the penis bell curve, and their perceptions of whatever else they had to offer. I'm guessing that shorter, less affluent, more socially awkward males would be far more likely to get it done.

Well this thread notwithstanding a great number of men are having things done.

People have all kinds of motivations - some of it the worst insecurity, some of it an acknowledgement that looks matter and they affect your paycheck - and they affect the paycheck of a 65 YO exec male as much as they do mine - anyone whose photo circulates or who gets in front of people. Love it or hate it - stick your head in the sand over it as much as you want.

When those of you who don't notice a looks/paycheck correalation are content to have your income fall off by half in the course of a week over it I'll talk about my insecurities. For now most of them are the same as yours - paying bills.

Sure, there's a looks/success correlation. So plastic surgery may help, at the margin. But it's no guarantee, and isn't nearly enough.

I'm still trying to figure out how wanting twenty pounds of tits removed is caving to the patriarchy.

No one said that surgery to relieve back pain is caving to anything other than pain.

But since you mention the "patriarchy," I have to say that I don't think the patriarchy can be blamed for the plastic surgery craze. Sure, the beauty industry pedals insecurity. But women in general are far too fond of slicing and dicing each other on the basis of appearance to lay this all at the feet at men.

 

[JMohegan]

I have a college step-daughter that has been obsessed with her nose for as long as I can remember. Her nose is fine and she is wanting a nose job for all the wrong reasons. Hopefully what I've been telling her all along will help her do the right thing for herself. If not, hopefully it will not end up creating bigger problem than the ones she thought it would fix.

This makes me sad.

Yep.

This is how I feel about a vibrant, thriving 41 year old woman who worries that she needs to "freshen" her face with a knife.

I'm sorry to hear about your step-daughter, Rida. But if you feel this way about her, then you understand where I'm coming from here.

 

[rida]

This is how I feel about a vibrant, thriving 41 year old woman who worries that she needs to "freshen" her face with a knife.

I'm sorry to hear about your step-daughter, Rida. But if you feel this way about her, then you understand where I'm coming from here.

Well, thank you.

The difference is that I'm simply not excluding it down the line, 10 years or more, and have no expectation of it fixing my life. She believes that "if only her nose was smaller" life would be roses and sunshine.

And at 50 I think I'd have earned the right to be considered mature enough to understand what I would be doing, as opposed to a 16 yo that had not even finished growing let alone be mature enough to understand it (and is nowhere close to be mature not even now that she is few years older).

 

[JMohegan]

Well, thank you.

The difference is that I'm simply not excluding it down the line, 10 years or more, and have no expectation of it fixing my life. She believes that "if only her nose was smaller" life would be roses and sunshine.

And at 50 I think I'd have earned the right to be considered mature enough to understand what I would be doing, as opposed to a 16 yo that had not even finished growing let alone be mature enough to understand it (and is nowhere close to be mature not even now that she is few years older).

Anyone who thinks plastic surgery will solve all their problems, give them permanent self esteem, or make them rich, is deluding themselves, clearly. I completely agree.

But your comment about maturity in general makes we wonder. If the mature people are getting plastic surgery for relatively superficial, or less serious, reasons, doesn't that send a message to kids about plastic surgery itself?

 

[Netzach]

Sure, there's a looks/success correlation. So plastic surgery may help, at the margin. But it's no guarantee, and isn't nearly enough.

?

Is there any business expenditure one could make that *guarantees* increased income? Please enlighten me, because I could use that.

M cannot drive the beater Saturn to work interviews and send the message he wants to send. It's screwed up, but I think almost everyone makes some concessions to how it is, unless you knit your own socks and live off the grid.

 

[ownedsubgal]

This is SO true!

For example: Back before I went natural, my hair was a fried mess. I'm talking about bad. Frizzy, dull, dry, full of split ends. It felt like a broom and looked like it too. Now that I've started treating my hair better, it looks better. My confidence has increased a lot, because a part of my body that didn't look good, now does.

The way a woman looks CAN affect her confidence, simply because she's uncomfortable with it. No one -ever- said anything negative about my hair, but I felt it didn't look it's best. So my self esteem was lower because of it.

thanks for getting where i'm coming from sd. it's the way we view and think about ourselves that actually affects the way we carry ourselves in the world, how high we can hold our heads up....not the way we are viewed by others, even someone who loves us very much.

 

[Netzach]

Well, I only have the example of the nose job I got because my mother was actively lobbying for me to get one. That worked for her well.

Actually I was a snothead cunt about her choice on that until I got older and had My Chipmunk Year and .5 Year. Why couldn't she just tell them to shove it, and why oh WHY was she on ME to lose 15 pounds and get my nose done?

My mother does not have the "fuck what they think" thing down at all. Every comment about her Jew-girl nose definitely got to her and I refuse to blame her for not wanting to live with the stress of a fucked up situation just as a martyr to naturalness.

Now I understand why she did her thing and have more patience with it. The urging me to do what she'd like thing was just her shitty non-boundary thing at work. I'm glad I'm an ornery asshole at heart, because without my natural dose of that I'd be a mess.

So if no one is going to tell me at 16 that I really need a nose job, no one is going to tell me at 50 what I should and should not do.

I'd LIKE to age into a lovely weathered Georgia O'Keefe little thing in black on the 5th ave bus with a sleek silver bob. And I intend to get as *close* to that as I can. My expectations are realistic, my ideal is not the fountain of youth. If I start looking like a Boston Terrier I'm going to see if a bit of realigning can be done.

 

[Netzach]

thanks for getting where i'm coming from sd. it's the way we view and think about ourselves that actually affects the way we carry ourselves in the world, how high we can hold our heads up....not the way we are viewed by others, even someone who loves us very much.

Absolutely.

For every close-knit loved one going "it's not so bad" I had to deal with how I *felt.* For everyone telling me "what they would do" or "how they would feel" it was like, that's nice, you're not experiencing this, fuck off.

 

[JMohegan]

?

Is there any business expenditure one could make that *guarantees* increased income? Please enlighten me, because I could use that.

M cannot drive the beater Saturn to work interviews and send the message he wants to send. It's screwed up, but I think almost everyone makes some concessions to how it is, unless you knit your own socks and live off the grid.

Nope. There are no expenditures guaranteeing success.

That's also not what I said. Why reach for strawmen?

There are plenty of short, ugly, frumpy people in the upper ranks of the corporate, legal, and medical worlds. Also, plenty of gorgeous folks goin' nowhere.

No guarantees that looks will get you anywhere. And?

Not sure where this leaves us, except that it's clear to me that you and I have different views on the subject, and that your opinion depresses me, and my opinion seriously pisses you off.

Those seem like good reasons to end the discussion.

 

[the captians wench]

I just want enough fat sucked out of me to make it easier to get my fat ass out and exersize.

And then some skin tucks/removals when I loose the rest of the weight.

I love my boobs, and ass, and lips, though I might want to get rid of excess chins.

But I'm cheap, so I wouldn't seriously consider it even if some one else paid for it. I just can't stand the thought of paying so much money for something that is so unnessisary.

Ooooh while we're thinking about it though, how about some lazor hair removal to my legs, brow, the fur spot on my back, and a high bikini line (not sure I'd lazer the entire cunt)

 

[Netzach]

Nope. There are no expenditures guaranteeing success.

That's also not what I said. Why reach for strawmen?

There are plenty of short, ugly, frumpy people in the upper ranks of the corporate, legal, and medical worlds. Also, plenty of gorgeous folks goin' nowhere.

No guarantees that looks will get you anywhere. And?

Not sure where this leaves us, except that it's clear to me that you and I have different views on the subject, and that your opinion depresses me, and my opinion seriously pisses you off.

Those seem like good reasons to end the discussion.

That's cool. I'd simply like to reiterate though that I do have this direct correlation nailed for me in my current business model. I know that I can be very far afield of barbie and still make bank, but I also feel like I have the sense of its limitations. I was comfortable working at 178lbs with my own images. I have a fairly healthy body image.

I like my work. I intend to push it into my sixties and I intend to go voice only with content pics the day that my own are not working any longer. But using my own has benefits. And would have helped a lot when I was sick.

I *like* that extra 50% earnings that my own photos and clips bring. I'm protective of it. I *like* the creative work of shooting them and writing them.

There are hitches that would compromise this, and I could see certain age markers being one, and not others. I don't give a crap about the ones that are not. I'm sorry if that depresses you based on your ideas about my individualism and fuck the systemness and I mean that without confrontation and sarcasm. But I think they are still pretty intact.

 

[Netzach]

I just want enough fat sucked out of me to make it easier to get my fat ass out and exersize.

And then some skin tucks/removals when I loose the rest of the weight.

I love my boobs, and ass, and lips, though I might want to get rid of excess chins.

But I'm cheap, so I wouldn't seriously consider it even if some one else paid for it. I just can't stand the thought of paying so much money for something that is so unnessisary.

Ooooh while we're thinking about it though, how about some lazor hair removal to my legs, brow, the fur spot on my back, and a high bikini line (not sure I'd lazer the entire cunt)

Can I just inject some levity by saying that I effing hate hate hate getting brow/lip waxes? Without which I am Frida. Without the skills and magnetism to pull it off.

M is lazered a bunch and is like "omg, you should do you should do" to which I've been like "no way."

Then he dangled the apple "you know, she could do your brows and lip"

 

[graceanne]

Can I just inject some levity by saying that I effing hate hate hate getting brow/lip waxes? Without which I am Frida. Without the skills and magnetism to pull it off.

M is lazered a bunch and is like "omg, you should do you should do" to which I've been like "no way."

Then he dangled the apple "you know, she could do your brows and lip"

I SO would get my eyebrow and lip lazered if I could afford it. I HATE waxing. I figure only a woman would pay someone to RIP HAIR OUT OF THEIR BODIES!

My 11 year old was all 'mom? when can I start waxing my eyebrows?' The answer was seventh grade, but I told her that she shouldn't be looking forward to it, it sucks.