Facts, bears and groupthink

[GuiltyCowboy]

The concentration of manufacturing & petroleum products production back in "the good old days" when America was "great" also led to concentrated pollution in America that was unsustainable / unsurvivable (not to mention, a massive global economic …imbalance), so…



Globalization isn’t "great", but the alternative is less "great", imho.



We. Told. Them. So.

Totally.

This is idealistic of course - but, hey, America is a democracy, and democracies are supposed to be able to arrange themselves however they want - so it’s illegal for American-owned companies to engage in corruption/bribery when operating in foreign countries, right… imagine if it was also illegal to work without unionized companies across the world, in every part of the supply chain.

 

[Chernosoth]

I had no idea we have new fossil fuel companies. Do we have new asset management companies, new newspapers and television channels, new banks?

Do we have new political parties too?

New media outlets are the journalists running their own sites, blogs, podcasts, etc. Later they'll be working at local newspapers and radio stations as the internet runs out of juice. Asset management is bullshit work that is becoming unaffordable. How the declining resources of fossil fuels are managed will probably change, but later there won't be any to manage. A new party replacing the Democratick Party is possible. As government becomes less federal and more local, political parties may later be dropped as expenses we don't need anymore.

 

[BoredDirtyCommie]

Real estate crashes, corporations become bankrupt, government stops bailing them out.

That's not an answer. That's just random words.

Donald Trump is a billionaire landlord. He is the elite. Nothing in his platform suggests even in the slightest that he's for anything except making rich people richer, himself included. There is nothing in his platform that suggests doing anything other than harming the working class.

 

[Lazaran]

Totally.

This is idealistic of course - but, hey, America is a democracy, and democracies are supposed to be able to arrange themselves however they want - so it’s illegal for American-owned companies to engage in corruption/bribery when operating in foreign countries, right… imagine if it was also illegal to work without unionized companies across the world, in every part of the supply chain.

Good fucking luck…

 

[bijedi]

As government becomes less federal and more local, political parties may later be dropped as expenses we don't need anymore.

This has never happened. The trend for 250 years has been towards more federal government control and there are no indications that is going to change anytime soon.

 

[Chernosoth]

This has never happened. The trend for 250 years has been towards more federal government control and there are no indications that is going to change anytime soon.

Power becomes more centralized in growing empires. The current excuse for centralization is bureaucratic efficiency. Now we're in decline, when empires must change everything they do. What worked for 250 years doesn't work anymore. The pendulum swings back or the empire implodes and becomes a mix of failed states and smaller struggling nations. We very narrowly escaped implosion, but some states will still eventually leave and go their own way as local control becomes closer capitals of new nations.

 

[coati]

And yet the overwhelming majority of Americans equate government with socialism. They think government helps poor people.

It makes no fucking sense.

It's the ultimate socialism-for-the-rich con. It's actually the transfer of more wealth toward the wealthy, all taking place in a continuous growth economic pyramid scheme that both of the major political parties accept as an article of faith. The main difference between the two parties is the rate of acceleration toward the collapse of this pyramid scheme.

The corporate and special interest lobbyists have open access to the wheels of government, no matter which of the two parties is in power. It appears that a collapse is necessary before actual democratic socialism can be implemented, similar to the conditions that preceded the New Deal. However, this time around we are also dealing with the impacts of climate change, one of the main effects of the continuous growth economic model.

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

That's not an answer. That's just random words.

Donald Trump is a billionaire landlord. He is the elite. Nothing in his platform suggests even in the slightest that he's for anything except making rich people richer, himself included. There is nothing in his platform that suggests doing anything other than harming the working class.

His office has turned out one surprise after another, week after week, since the beginning of last year. If that's your impression of a billionaire, then I'd have to ask what you think a bad one would look like. Maybe yuo should keep it down.

 

[BoredDirtyCommie]

His office has turned out one surprise after another, week after week, since the beginning of last year. If that's your impression of a billionaire, then I'd have to ask what you think a bad one would look like. Maybe yuo should keep it down.

I think all billionaires are bad. Why should I keep it down? I'm not even saying something controversial, lol

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

But, when they voted for him, did they actually want him to use the President’s office to enrich himself by $4bn?

Did they actually want him to cause 14m extra deaths (by 2030) by cutting USAID?

Did they hope he’d drop a bomb on a girl’s school in an entirely unprovoked attack?

Did they understand he’d be putting taxes up on them so he could cut taxes for his donors?

If this website is anything to go by, I don’t think they had a clue those things might happen. They don’t seem to really understand how the world actually works.

Is ignorance complicity?

His office has turned out one surprise after another, week after week

Ahem...

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

Did they actually want him to cause 14m extra deaths (by 2030) by cutting USAID?

Widely cited as corruption. Did you do anything different personally though? Doubt it. So is that your example?

Did they hope he’d drop a bomb on a girl’s school in an entirely unprovoked attack?

You know he's got help. What kind of training do you think they have? Mission accomplished?

But, when they voted for him, did they actually want him to use the President’s office to enrich himself by $4bn?

You can't take it with you. Hunter Biden is probably jealous.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

Widely cited as corruption. Did you do anything different personally though? Doubt it. So is that your example?

You know he's got help. What kind of training do you think they have? Mission accomplished?

You can't take it with you. Hunter Biden is probably jealous.

Did you want him to do those things? That's the central issue in this discussion. Can you answer that for us.

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

You've never met a president, current or past, from any country. They're a character on TV. If you want to apply to their job, there's a very clear list of requirements. One of them is that you have to be a citizen of the United States, if my memory serves me correctly. Does that include you?

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

Given your refusal to answer the question, it's going to be assumed that you didn't have a fucking clue ('surprise after surprise' etc.) but you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that these are terrible, terrible outcomes.

And that's because you support him and because your brain won't allow the idea that you might be a bad person for supporting him.

Hence the mealy-mouthed attempts at justification and deflection.

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

Given your refusal to answer the question, it's going to be assumed that you didn't have a fucking clue ('surprise after surprise' etc.) but you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that these are terrible, terrible outcomes.

And that's because you support him and because your brain won't allow the idea that you might be a bad person for supporting him.

Hence the mealy-mouthed attempts at justification and deflection.

You couldn't find the port to plug my phone in. Fuck off.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

You couldn't find the port to plug my phone in. Fuck off.

Where's the plain-speaking, tell it like it is, I'm a man, drain the swamp, yahoo bravado now, huh?

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

I think the expression is "YOLO", but it's supposed to carry a positive connotation.

 

[Chernosoth]

But, when they voted for him, did they actually want him to use the President’s office to enrich himself by $4bn?
Did they actually want him to cause 14m extra deaths (by 2030) by cutting USAID?
Did they hope he’d drop a bomb on a girl’s school in an entirely unprovoked attack?
Did they understand he’d be putting taxes up on them so he could cut taxes for his donors?
If this website is anything to go by, I don’t think they had a clue those things might happen. They don’t seem to really understand how the world actually works.

He lost money by entering politics, starting with the lawfare against him.

I had not heard of USAID before he cut funding, but stopping a money laundering operation is part of his job.

The girls' school was next to a military target. Bombs sometimes land next to instead of on targets. Collateral damage will happen where human shields are standard policy. Iran can be more casual about human shields because it has a higher birthrate and lower life expectancy, until it runs out of water and oil, and then it will have a low birthrate and much lower life expectancy. It's not a war I wanted when I voted, but the inevitability was always there.

Taxes can wait for a tax thread. No fucking way am I starting that shit now.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

He lost money by entering politics, starting with the lawfare against him.

If you read an article in a journal that was world-famous for the level of its fact-checking and that article went into scrupulous detail about all the ways Trump and his family have enriched themselves through the Presidency, do you think it would change your mind?

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

Widely cited as corruption. Did you do anything different personally though? Doubt it. So is that your example?

You know he's got help. What kind of training do you think they have? Mission accomplished?

You can't take it with you. Hunter Biden is probably jealous.

What's wild is that these people never, ever go 'wait, 14 million people might die because of that? I had no idea. That's awful.'

It just doesn't even enter their brain. A particularly vicious bear they just fought off, huh. Little pat on the back.

No wonder Biden won by playing the decency card.

 

[Wilson23]

So, what's up with the groupthink and the resistance to facts, especially if human success has always depended on the opposite?

Because no collective human enterprise ever was accomplished WITHOUT some form of groupthink.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

Because no collective human enterprise ever was accomplished WITHOUT some form of groupthink.

It's a nuance admittedly but groupthink and consensus-building aren't quite the same things.

Groupthink implies closed thinking, while consensus-building is supposed to be the opposite, everyone sharing their ideas, sifting out the weak ones.

There's a nice saying that truth is a group activity.

 

[goldytheGoldfish]

Using facts to counter groupthink can and does do the exact opposite: it increases groupthink.

A factually accurate statement from someone you distrust emotionally will simply be overridden by that emotional distrust.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Using facts to counter groupthink can and does do the exact opposite: it increases groupthink.

A factually accurate statement from someone you distrust emotionally will simply be overridden by that emotional distrust.

It's tempting to call this tribalism but that's not how tribes actually work. Tribes in reality thrive by being open-minded (to changes and opportunities), by bridge-building with other tribes (for trade and security), and by consensus-seeking (sifting out poor ideas in favor of better ones). To be 'tribal' is actually to be open-minded, to build bridges and to seek consensus.

So, what's up with the groupthink and the resistance to facts, especially if human success has always depended on the opposite?

It's because, above all else, humans want to be calm. Yeah, calm. And they achieve this calm by creating worlds where there's no tension.

Do you want tension in your life? 'Course not. Who wants that? And so it's perfectly normal that people actively want to be cut off. Alternatives provide conflicting messages and uncertainty. And if there's one thing that freaks us out more than anything else it's uncertainty.

(Curiously, artists who are generally considered geniuses - Shakespeare and the like - have a particular love of uncertainty).

Anyway, this world we create gives us the best way to satisfy our deepest cravings: it's where we connect with other humans, earn status, and find some kind of goal or meaning. Confront me with an alternative and you're threatening to take away my status, my meaning.

So why the hell do people come here everyday to be confronted by alternatives? After all, studies have shown that, when people are confronted with irrefutable facts that contradict their political beliefs, their brains light up in the same way as if they've just encountered a bear.

It's because we all get a little shot of neural pleasure in having resisted the alternative. The truth and what's correct is utterly irrelevant. All that is relevant is that our world remains intact. Hence the groupthink increasing, not reducing.

Anyway, why the fuck have I bothered to write this out? I'm bored and I had a spare 10 mins mainly. But also, I just wanted to congratulate everyone for fighting off the bears everyday.

But - and if you've got this far then well done, you must be as bored as me - here's a question to end on: what tricks can be used to overcome the emotional distrust?

Edit: Don't know how I could forget this, given this is an erotica website: the other main reason for bridge-building is of course...for sex.

I keep coming to the Politics Board because I enjoy calmly stating facts. It gives me a feeling of stability in a chaotic world. It’s a different sort of pleasure than the thrill I get from writing smut.

I’m also kind of a bitch and if I’m bitchy here it keeps me from acting out on Blue Sky or Twitter.

 

[Iluv17]

I will just leave this....

https://justthenews.com/videos/coli...pthink-activist-institutions-britains-decline