FemiNazi

[Colleen Thomas]

It is hard to discuss feminism without making note that GW just signed into a law an act that makes a safe medical proceedure illegal. Also significant is the fact that it was challeneged in court and an injunction issued less than an hour after he signed it.

I by no means wish to shift this to a conversation on pro life or pro choice, but I did want to note this in light of the simple fact that I have never heard of the prodominantly male congress attempting to pass any law that curtails vasectomys or makes them harder for men to get. You don't see men's groups having to turn to the courts to protect thier reproductive rights or rights to privacy and the right to make decisions concerning their own bodies.

I am not a rabid feminist. I do think equal pay for equal work is a fair idea and I don't think women should be discriminated against because of their sex in hiring practices. As I watch news coverage on the rape trial of Kobe Bryant I see that his defense team is dragging up every sexual encounter they can find in the alleged victims past. Apparently in their estimation the fact that she has had sexual urges before makes her less of a human being in some way.

I used these two examples to highlight a simple point, there is a double standard that exists among men and women. As long as the sexes are judged by different criteria you can never have equality. A 20 yr. old guy who takes home a different woman every friday night is a stud. A 20 yr. old girl who goes home with a different guy every friday is a slut. Society lionizes one and villify's the other, for the exact same behavior. The corporate CEO who has a mistress on the side is just being one of the boys, but if his wife is screwing the gardner she's a cheating whore.

Feminism exists because there is an inherent flaw in the system that creates a need for it. It's a very unfocused movement because as of yet there has been no way found to attack the real culprit, the double standard, so different women choose their battles in light of what is most important to them. Am I a feminist? You bet your behind. Am I going to be out burning my bras? No way in hell, I pay too much for them and finding one thats comfortable is a nightmare. I don't want to be like men, I rather enjoy being a woman, but I want the same rights and the same equality under the law as men and at this point in time in subtle and not so subtle ways I am still a second class citizen.

-Colly

 

[Em Keli 2003]

DESTINIE

Well said indeed. Your post underscores why I have difficulty understanding any female that says the are not feminists. It is at it's roots a very simplistic and basic humanistic issue and the failure to understand and support the justifiable rights and fight bias exemplifies how far we all still have to go.

 

[Couture]

I think I am being misunderstood here.

Em:

I really think that the distinction between feminist and femi-nazi is blurred by your approach and only makes the issue more complicated than it needs to be, adding to the problem of overcoming bias. There is a small cadre of women who fall into the femi-nazi category.

What I'm saying is that the very term femi-nazi is designed to blur the distinction between feminist and nazis.

A woman who hates men, should be called a bitch, man-hater or whatever you want to call her. By using the term femi-nazi, it frames women who want equal rights in a negative light.

Femi-fascist does the same thing.

Earl:
Anyway, I didn't put words in Tate's mouth. I quoted her word for word. I've read it again, and I don't see how the context was changed. Should I quote the first post, then yours, then Tate's? The whole thread is here for anyone to read. I quoted her statement and gave my own opinion. I don't care if you or Tate know a hundred women who hate men or want to be superior to men. Are feminists responsible for these women's attitudes? That's as bad as what you accuse them of, which is holding all men responsible for society's problems.

And really, that's about all I have to say about this subject.

 

[TheEarl]

Couture: Please, let me make this clear. I am a feminist (despite not being a woman). I believe firmly in equal rights for women. I am not against feminism.

What Tatelou and I were talking about was a select group of women (call them femi-Nazi's, whatever) who hate men and hold double-standards. These women aren't feminists.

I made no mention of feminists at all. I have no problem with them; in fact I support their cause. We were talkign about something completely different to you, but you came in and quoted Tatelou and used her words to go against your argument. That's why you took them out of context, as it was in fact, nothing to do with what you were discussing.

The Earl

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I'm glad to see that so many fine men are supporting Feminism. You rock, guys!

 

[Quasimodem]

. . . A woman who hates men, should be called a bitch, man-hater or whatever you want to call her. By using the term femi-nazi, it frames women who want equal rights in a negative light. Femi-fascist does the same thing.

Any woman - feminist or not - can be a bitch. I have also encountered several men who would not be ill served by that term. It has nothing to do with feminism.

A feminist is someone who believes in equal rights for women - pay, position, and patronage.

The sex of these adherents do not matter. In most cases – from the bottom up – that battle has been won. There now only exists the usual societal lag between recognition and enforcement of this recent social movement.

At one time, when feminism was still defining itself, the femi-nazi tag was often an attack upon legitimate feminist goals.

By this time, however, femi-nazi is a self-evident term used to categorize the extremists who proselytize "feminist" goals that are far beyond the desires of the vast majority of feminists, while being both unpalatably and off-putting to men who support the more moderate feminist goals.

Any woman who tries to use the legitimate feminist platform to spew divisive anti-male polemics into the discourse, DESERVES to be called a Femi-Nazi.

Both by women as well as men.

 

[the brothers cum]

It seems to me that the terminology is not the problem but the underlying attitude. People using the word 'Femi-Nazi' is not the problem. The problem is when the mentality behind it that 'I will ignore everything this person has to say because they are a woman'. Many people use the word 'Femi-Nazi' as a way of disregarding any feminist view expressed by a woman. On the other hand, the word is sometimes used expressly to define a woman who hates all men without rationally individualizing them.

The word is never the problem, merely a symptom of it. Some people use the word 'woman' with disdain and contempt far more offensive than their use of the word 'Feminazi'.

I think this holds true for many words. 'Nigger' and 'Bitch' for example are just words. It is only when the underlying mentality is racist or sexist that they are problematic. Among a group of close friends, charged words can be used without sting. If I said in jest to a close female friend 'lets go out and dance like crazy you sexy bitch', she would not mind because in that context the word has a specific meaning. Alternatively, if a random stranger fondles a woman and says 'hey bitch', it is sexual harassment.

 

[Mhari]

I'm not a feminist. I'm an..."equalist". I don't want to be given privileges just because I'm a woman. I also don't want to *lose* privileges just because I'm a woman. I think everyone should rise or fall on their own merits.

Yes, it pisses me off when a man pats me on the shoulder and says, "Don't worry your purty lil head about it." (Which happens a lot in the American South, sigh.) But I figure it's up to me to then provide said jackass with a kick in the pants to wake him up to the fact that my "purty lil head" holds a lot more brains than his...

I think men and women should be treated equally, in all things, the good and the bad. Too often, women want the good things, but prefer to take a pass on the bad. American women have the right to vote; shouldn't we also have the obligation to register for the draft?

And as a last thought : women who blame men for everything that is wrong with the world scare me. I mean, really really scare me. They are perhaps the real reason I refuse to call myself a "feminist".

 

[Em Keli 2003]

COUTURE

Your point is well taken. I guess I make the distinction between Feminazi and Femifacist based on Feminazi being a term specifically drawing on comparisons to Hitlers gang of thugs where as facist is more oriented to dictatorial flavor.

In light of your contributions I think probably better yet would be Female chauvinist as opposed to Male chauvinist thus putting the terminology of each extreme on equal footing. Of course that does not have the desired flavor that the male dominated media ownership would like to promote.

Someone posted earlier that the term originated with Rush Limbaugh. That would explain some of the intentional abuse of the terminology. If I find myself agreeing with Limbaugh on something I have to stop and take a good long look at why I hold those values and wheter they are legitimate before I can proceed any further.

If Limbaugh told me it was raining outside, I would have to go outside, get wet, and come back inside, think about it and then go back outside again and get wet again and come back inside again and think about it some more before I would concede to agree with him.

 

[Couture]

ROTFLMAO!!

But at least you are openminded.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I'm not a feminist. I'm an..."equalist". I don't want to be given privileges just because I'm a woman. I also don't want to *lose* privileges just because I'm a woman. I think everyone should rise or fall on their own merits.

Mhari... to me, feminist MEANS equalist. Yes, it would be ideal that everyone should rise or fall on their own merits. But as long as there are misogynic men judging those merits, women will always be judged differently than men.

They say that a woman has to twice as good as a man in order to be regarded as half as good as that man, and to a certain degree, this is true. All those WASP-men in the business world, in the academic world, in politics - do you really BELIEVE that they got their on their own merits???

No matter how clever we are, we will always lack the most important merit to these guys - we don't have a dick.

The only way we can open their eyes to how good we really are, is by getting in by quota. Once we're in, we can impress them with our skills, and we can help other women in, too. But these guys will never invite us in without being pushed to it.

It's like little boys playing in a sandbox, refusing their little sister to join them because she's a GURL. They need a big mother who'll tell them "you let your sister play with you, too, or you'll get grounded!", or they will never give the girl a chance to prove how good she is at playing their game. She can't impress them from outside the sandbox, they're just not paying attention to her!

 

[tail_teller]

"Feminazi" is an abusive term, which could well have come from Limbaugh, and is meant to characterize more than a fringe.

Equal rights in the law, and equal protection of the law, seem like valid goals, including 'reproductive freedom': Let's not forget that the abortion issue is just the tip of an old iceberg; control of sex, including access even to condoms (selling of which used to be illegal in Massachusetts).

That said, there is a small segment of feminists who apparently have 'fascistic' leanings. I don't think this has anything necessarily to do with 'man hating.' It has to do with wanting the government to enforce morality: in recent court cases around internet porn, some feminist groups have allied with evangelical groups to present briefs to the court favoring such 'protection' laws. Similarly, this 'fascistic leaning' group, favor laws against prostitution by adults, sex or sm clubs. They favor laws requiring dr's to obtain parental consent before prescribing 'the pill' to a 15-year old.

I'm not sure what to call them: maybe 'moral zealots' in feminist garb.

TT

TT

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Anyone can CALL themselves feminists, but it's by their actions they reveal themselves. Someone calling himself liberal, but petitioning for censorship in newspapers, is false.

Someone calling herself a feminist, but working against equal rights for both genders, is someone who either hasn't understood what feminism really is, or possibly an anti-feminist trying to weazle her way into the movement to sabotage it from within.

 

[Mhari]

Anyone can CALL themselves feminists, but it's by their actions they reveal themselves.

I have perhaps run into too many of the "bad" kind of "feminist". And far too many of them judge men *and* women based on a (IMO) warped view of the world. I have been yelled at for (heaven forbid) permitting a man to open a door for me. And for not automatically assuming that every man is a jackass merely by virtue of being male. And any number of other "bad" things. All by women who call themselves feminists.

As long as there are those kinds of feminists running about, I refuse to call myself one. IMO, women like that make things a lot worse for the rest of us.

I suppose it was the way I was raised, but I've never felt inferior to a man, any man. If anyone can't accept me as an equal, well...I kinda think it's his problem. I'm not gonna worry my purty lil head over it. I do work in a male-dominated profession, but I have perhaps been fortunate not to have dealt with much sexism. Or maybe it's just that I scare all the guys. *grin*

 

[raphy]

Or maybe it's just that I scare all the guys. *grin*

You scare most of the guys you and I both know...

 

[sweetnpetite]

COUTURE


. By and large the whole of women and men who support valid feminist concerns are not femi-nazis.

.

the only problem of course is defining and agreeing on what constituts "valid feminist concerns"

 

[scarlet vixen]

Mr Quasimodem,

I reply as follows

>A feminist is someone who believes in equal rights for women - pay, position, and patronage.

I'd prefer to say, someone who _does something_ to advance equal right_ etc., not just talk it.


>The sex of these adherents do not matter. In most cases – from the bottom up – that battle has been won. There now only exists the usual societal lag between recognition and enforcement of this recent social movement.

Yeah. That 'usual lag' is obvious in the US Senate. In corporate CEOs. I'd say the battle is barely joined.

>At one time, when feminism was still defining itself, the femi-nazi tag was often an attack upon legitimate feminist goals.

It's an attack word, regardless of time.

>By this time, however, femi-nazi is a self-evident term used to categorize the extremists who proselytize "feminist" goals that are far beyond the desires of the vast majority of feminists, while being both unpalatably and off-putting to men who support the more moderate feminist goals.

Yeah, right. "off putting to men" is going to define what's moderate and fair to ask. 'Extremists' have desires beyond those of the vast majority of feminists. Yeah, these extremists at one time said a woman should be able to fuck whom she pleases.

>Any woman who tries to use the legitimate feminist platform to spew divisive anti-male polemics into the discourse, DESERVES to be called a Femi-Nazi.

And any Black person delivering an 'unpalatable' and 'offputting' speech, following your reasoning, deserves the label, n****r.

SV

 

[TheEarl]

>By this time, however, femi-nazi is a self-evident term used to categorize the extremists who proselytize "feminist" goals that are far beyond the desires of the vast majority of feminists, while being both unpalatably and off-putting to men who support the more moderate feminist goals.

Yeah, right. "off putting to men" is going to define what's moderate and fair to ask. 'Extremists' have desires beyond those of the vast majority of feminists. Yeah, these extremists at one time said a woman should be able to fuck whom she pleases.

SV: Calm down. For a start, Quasi is on your side. He believes in feminism and equal rights for women.

Secondly, just on this quote here, you say "off putting to men" is going to define what's moderate and fair to ask. but thta wasn't what Quasi said. He said off-putting to men who support the more moderate feminist goals such as him and myself.

Am I a bastard because I have a dick? Isn't that just as sexist as saying a women deserves lower pay because of her pussy? That kind of attitude is what Quasi, Tatelou and I don't like.

The Earl

 

[Svenskaflicka]

>Any woman who tries to use the legitimate feminist platform to spew divisive anti-male polemics into the discourse, DESERVES to be called a Femi-Nazi.

And any Black person delivering an 'unpalatable' and 'offputting' speech, following your reasoning, deserves the label, n****r.

SV

It always confused me why black rappers, who in my opinion have a very "offputting" speech, would call themselves the n-word, when they so clearly hate it when a white person uses the same word.

No matter if the person calling me "whore" is a man or a woman, the word still offends me.

How come it's allright to use the n-word if you're black?

 

[Quasimodem]

I was not planning to respond further on this thread. I had stated my opinion, and others were free to either state theirs, or pillory mine.

However, I have had one further thought, which I would like to place on the record, for whatever value it may contain.

It concerns vocabulary.

The problem with feminist as a qualitative term is that it does not differentiate across a wide range of opinions. My defining femi-nazi, as I have learned to use it, seems to have only exacerbated the problem.

Even this term, when used to separate extremists from feminists with moderate goals - like ERA, et cetera - is too offensive to apply. Even if those extremists do much more harm than good to feminism, by radicalizing how the movement is precieved.

Men's attitudes can be described with a range (not great, but at least a group of ‘code' words) of defining vocabulary: chauvinistic (pig), to modern, to (depending upon who is judging) enlightened and supportive, or alternately pussy-whipped.

What is the term for WOMEN who – in the midst of an ERA debate – pipe up with:

"I don't know why YOU PEOPLE have to be so negative? I'm a housewife, and I wouldn't leave MY family for ANY career. My family IS my career. It's the BEST role to which any REAL woman can aspire."

You know ––– those women who took the pledge to obey their hubby as he left to join in the Million Man March.

"Dick-whipped" just doesn't have quite the same ring to it as "pussy-whipped."

Can anyone suggest the proper term to use for the opposite of femi-nazi?

I will leave you to your deliberations.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

"Mansakskvinna".

Excellent word in Swedish, but I have no idea on how to translate it to English.

 

[Pure]

SF said, "How come it's allright to use the n-word if you're black?"

Same reason it's ok, if you're a woman, to wear a 'bitch' T shirt;

of if you're gay, to call yourself or someone else 'queer.'

I have a friend whose email address is yid@xxx.com . He gets to do that 'cuz he's an Orthodox Jew.

Surely this is the case in Swedish talk and culture as well??

J.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Yes, definitely. And it's just as confusing to me in any language.

 

[Pure]

Hi Earl,

You said,

"Am I a bastard because I have a dick? "

No, for other reasons.

BTW, I don't recall anyone being labelled a bastard 'cuz of a dick; quasi, in particular.

 

[Pure]

SV said,

about nasty labels, self applied,

/Yes, definitely. And it's just as confusing to me in any language./

You have noticed that some around here call themselves 'perverts' or sweet pussies: Do you find that confusing? You're kinda one of the latter, if not the former, yourself.