Feminism and BDSM...

[DeservingBitch]

I do, however, hold certain power associations in regards to penetration and receiving. Just my personal bias though, and I can easily see situations and attitudes controverting that. The enveloping concept being one of them.

All those associations vanished for me the day I fisted my first woman and seriously wondered with anxiety whether her pussy will ever let go of my hand. While fisting could be seen as the extreme form of penetration, I assure you that I felt everything but Toppish at that moment.

 

[Homburg]

All those associations vanished for me the day I fisted my first woman and seriously wondered with anxiety whether her pussy will ever let go of my hand. While fisting could be seen as the extreme form of penetration, I assure you that I felt everything but Toppish at that moment.

I keep hearing that, and I do believe it. Just haven't found the women yet that I can manage to get my hand that deeply into.

Though there have been times when I did not feel Toppish even though I was doing the penetrating. Every once in a while it just feels so damned good that Head #2 is in control, not me, which means that I am no longer Topping. This is why I say I can see situations that controvert that power association. It's just that associating it the way I do sits more naturally and consistently for me than associating it by gender.

 

[intothewoods]

Yep. BDSM to me is very much a masquerade of society's power relations. BDSM re-appropriate those power relations, the popular and most common themes around which they are played (think about the bad cop play, the teacher/student play, daddy/little girl or son play, boss/employee play, etc. -- those draw on very common experiences of power), and makes it fun, dirty, wet, and pleasure-full. Basically, take something oppressive, subvert it, and make it fun.

Agreed, with you and Homburg. I guess when I said feminism doesn't have much to do with my sexual desires, I really mean, I can't program my sexual desires. They are what they are. I can analyze them, and what influences them, but I can't say, it would be more in line with my political beliefs if I got off this way, therefore I will.

As for the personal is political, that line was used by feminists, including those that want to censor pornography and the like. I'm a bright line rule girl when it comes to protecting our civil liberties.

Finally, cat, you are not the only one driven crazy by the "tm" thing. It totally confounds me, for professional reasons, amongst others.

 

[intothewoods]

I keep hearing that, and I do believe it. Just haven't found the women yet that I can manage to get my hand that deeply into.

Though there have been times when I did not feel Toppish even though I was doing the penetrating. Every once in a while it just feels so damned good that Head #2 is in control, not me, which means that I am no longer Topping. This is why I say I can see situations that controvert that power association. It's just that associating it the way I do sits more naturally and consistently for me than associating it by gender.

Bwah ha. I love those moments. They're beautiful.

 

[laylayum]

hmmm...

I don't consider myself to be a subscriber to much of the BDSM lifestyle, but I do like some activities which would fall into the category. I do enjoy being submissive often - to a certain degree. In my mind, I'm still a strong woman - just role-playing in a compartmentalized context of my life. The same man to whom I'm submissive would have to respect me and know me outside of the sexual activities we'd partake in. That means I can be a feminist and submissive in this one are of my life if I wish. Oh, and I am also quite capable of being dominant if/when the mood strikes me.

 

[Homburg]

Bwah ha. I love those moments. They're beautiful.

You would. I....

*narrows eyes*

I'm not taking your bait, ITW.

 

[Marquis]

As an aside Marquis never flirted with me. I had to get to like 85 posts before he even noticed my existence. I'm rather hurt actually.

Sorry, I'm a sucker for self-important bitches, stuck up their own asses with flowery, redundant rhetoric.


And just so you know, toots, attention from Marquis at 85 posts is almost a record.

*smacks ass*

You're gonna be a star here babe, I can tell.

 

[intothewoods]

You would. I....

*narrows eyes*

I'm not taking your bait, ITW.

What bait? Pay no attention to the bright and shiny thing dangling in front of you...

 

[Homburg]

What bait? Pay no attention to the bright and shiny thing dangling in front of you...

I can't hear you. I'm putting on my kilt.

 

[alexanna]

I have to agree with DB. I don't see it as inherently masculine or feminine. Men receive in homosexual relationships, as well as men that enjoy prostrate stimulation, and, for that matter, in giving oral pleasure (to either gender). I see it as a role that is frequently masculine, simply because evolution has provided us with plumbing that supports the activity, but I know plenty of men that like to receive.

I still kinda do. Despite the fact that I can strap one on any time I still see the phallus as a masculine symbol and its main activity penetration and exploration whether it gets devoured in the process or not. The Washington monument still screams masculine supremacy to me and I plan to continue getting indignant every time I see it. I see DB's point though and perhaps I will grow out of these old fashioned ideas. I'm pretty mired in the clock in, act like a man all day, clock out, make dinner, clean up, put the kids to bed survival mode. There just isn't much devouring going on around here. Perhaps I can arrange it for his birthday.

I don't really see an asshole as devouring. Seems like it would have to be a pretty practiced asshole to pull that off.

The general consensus seems to be that gender just doesn't have that much to do BDSM and submission. MY BDSM still does but from reading the comments of Cat and other's I can see myself growing beyond that to the point where the feminine\masculine dynamic becomes irrelevant to the power exchange even in hetro encounters where I am on the bottom.

 

[EmpressFi]

And I just wanna stand up and say once and for all that I..

hmm? kilt?

 

[alexanna]

Kilt's are soooo sexy

 

[Homburg]

I don't really see an asshole as devouring. Seems like it would have to be a pretty practiced asshole to pull that off.

Eh, I've a number of friends who were EMT's, medics, paramedics, etc, and far too many of them have stories about rectal thermometers, and othe ritems, getting lost. Let go for a sec and, schloop, it's gone. Devoured.

 

[alexanna]

Sorry, I'm a sucker for self-important bitches, stuck up their own asses with flowery, redundant rhetoric.


And just so you know, toots, attention from Marquis at 85 posts is almost a record.

*smacks ass*

You're gonna be a star here babe, I can tell.

I'm both flattered and furious. Very pleasant combo.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I still kinda do. Despite the fact that I can strap one on any time I still see the phallus as a masculine symbol and its main activity penetration and exploration whether it gets devoured in the process or not. The Washington monument still screams masculine supremacy to me and I plan to continue getting indignant every time I see it. I see DB's point though and perhaps I will grow out of these old fashioned ideas. I'm pretty mired in the clock in, act like a man all day, clock out, make dinner, clean up, put the kids to bed survival mode. There just isn't much devouring going on around here. Perhaps I can arrange it for his birthday.

I don't really see an asshole as devouring. Seems like it would have to be a pretty practiced asshole to pull that off.

The general consensus seems to be that gender just doesn't have that much to do BDSM and submission. MY BDSM still does but from reading the comments of Cat and other's I can see myself growing beyond that to the point where the feminine\masculine dynamic becomes irrelevant to the power exchange even in hetro encounters where I am on the bottom.

I haven't fisted any assholes yet, but I seem to remember Netzach talking about a very similar moment as the one I described above while fisting an asshole. And if my second hand experience at watching gay male porn counts as 'informed knowledge', I'm under the impression that assholes can be quite the devouring beasts as well.

Back to the topic of BDSM and feminism, I think that the first step to 'reconcile' your desires to your politics is to let go of any notions that there are some inherent qualities to being female/male. The male/female dynamics is relevant in terms of power in our current culture not because of some inherent qualities to being male or female, but because of an entire structure of power that privileges and favors what is associated with 'masculinity', which is itself at best a collective illusion. From an feminist, equalitarian, and social justice perspective, this is bad because a very few benefit from the oppression and exploitation of most everybody else.

But this is not what BDSM is about. Sure it is very much influenced by our current culture's power relations and doesn't exist outside of this world. But there are two important things in BDSM that make the power dynamics non-oppressive. First, this whole consent thing. And second, and maybe more importantly, you getting your ass spanked by your PYL doesn't hurt or harm anybody else. There's not an entire system enforcing and legitimizing (het) BDSM as the 'norm'. And not only is nobody else hurt or harm by your sexuality, but ideally, both you and your partner are getting pleasure out of the spanking.

That's why I really don't see anything conflictual between having feminist politics and BDSM. Being submissive is NOT a bad thing, and being dominant is NOT better than being submissive, irrespective of gender. Being submissive is not oppressive in itself -- it's being forced to or expected to be submissive because I walk around with a pussy that is oppressive.

 

[alexanna]

Back to the topic of BDSM and feminism, I think that the first step to 'reconcile' your desires to your politics is to let go of any notions that there are some inherent qualities to being female/male. The male/female dynamics is relevant in terms of power in our current culture not because of some inherent qualities to being male or female, but because of an entire structure of power that privileges and favors what is associated with 'masculinity', which is itself at best a collective illusion. From an feminist, equalitarian, and social justice perspective, this is bad because a very few benefit from the oppression and exploitation of most everybody else.

And this is exactly what I disagree with. Women are physically weaker and bear the burden of child bearing and all that goes with it (menstrual cycles, unwanted pregnancies, fluctuating hormones and moods). We have actually created the illusion of equality with our social constructs. Our minds may be equal but nothing else is. Its getting better certainly with the intervention of modern medicine but we most certainly aren't there yet and it could definitely be taken away.

We have been ceded power and granted equality. Good for us.

 

[DeservingBitch]

And this is exactly what I disagree with. Women are physically weaker and bear the burden of child bearing and all that goes with it (menstrual cycles, unwanted pregnancies, fluctuating hormones and moods). We have actually created the illusion of equality with our social constructs. Our minds may be equal but nothing else is. Its getting better certainly with the intervention of modern medicine but we most certainly aren't there yet and it could definitely be taken away.

That may have been relevant in a pre-industrial period, but given the current mode of production and the technological, medical, and financial capacities of our current culture, our biology is not inherently a weakness. If motherhood and everything that is comes with it was valorized (and not only paid lip service) in our society, if all the reproductive labor that women do was valorized and recognized as labor, our biology would be totally irrelevant. As a social group, women are not oppressed because they are inherently or naturally weaker than men -- we are oppressed because of an entire structure of power that valorizes and privileges men and devalorizes and exploits women.

We have been ceded power and granted equality. Good for us.

We haven't been ceded or granted anything -- women have thought, written, spoken, organized, and fought for gender equality and justice, and many have been harassed, imprisoned, raped and killed for their work toward social justice. Nobody gave us anything -- what we managed to get we took it ourselves.

 

[alexanna]

We haven't been ceded or granted anything -- women have thought, written, spoken, organized, and fought for gender equality and justice, and many have been harassed, imprisoned, raped and killed for their work toward social justice. Nobody gave us anything -- what we managed to get we took it ourselves.

Yeah I'm really very greatful to them. Kinda wished I had been there. I hate missing out.

 

[Netzach]

The personal is political means "your personal life reflects political realities"

and suddenly this got perverted by middle class feminists into "you must fuck in a way that reflects what you desire politically"

rather than something like "you know, your decision to buy stuff at the dollar store means someone's being horribly underpaid somewhere and that's OK with you."

How I fuck really means nothing beyond the borders of my bedroom unless I let it. How I treat people in my employ, and what I buy has a lot more impact, but middle class feminists wanted to look at the easy stuff, not the hard stuff.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I haven't fisted any assholes yet

You don't know what you're missing....but remember the gloves, and if necessary, something to use as leverage when you want out.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I was thinking about this today while driving. Of course, being male, it is likely that I'm wrong about it D) but I figured I'd advance the idea anyway.

Examine, for a moment, rape fantasy, especially for those who have been raped or similarly abused. Why would someone who had been through the horror of rape have a desire to experience a fantasy version of such a traumatic event? One theory that I've read is that the fantasy remains under control of the bottom, and thus rescripts the victimisation with the former victim now in control of the scene. The victim retakes the power by acting out the rape fantasy with the control of a safeword, and with a trusted partner.

Examine this concept with oppression of females throughout the millennia, and how voluntarily accepting oppression in microcosm with the power of a safeword in place, and with a trusted partner, can recript that oppression with the oppressed now in control of the scene. While the prima faciae power relationship has the Top as the oppressor, the oppressed holds the power and merely lends it to the oppressor.

Just an idea, and one that percolated as I was being viciously oppressed by domineering, non-safeword-heeding traffic.

Sure seems likely to me. But look at race and SM and you have the same kinds of microcosms. I personally have no problems with that kind of play, and I do think that people are rescripting and re-enacting all the time.

I don't think "play" is a dirty word. Most of the most serious of physicists don't either.

But anything that deviates from the "realness" and "trueness" is automatically thrown out by most of the community. Everyone wants to feel totally authentic, but I think what we're doing is a pretty synthetic thing at its base.

 

[Netzach]

You don't know what you're missing....but remember the gloves, and if necessary, something to use as leverage when you want out.

Catalina

It *is* a little alarming when you want your hand back. I'm still a little nervous, now I know why the vagina dentata looms large in the imagination.

 

[Netzach]

And this is exactly what I disagree with. Women are physically weaker and bear the burden of child bearing and all that goes with it (menstrual cycles, unwanted pregnancies, fluctuating hormones and moods). We have actually created the illusion of equality with our social constructs. Our minds may be equal but nothing else is. Its getting better certainly with the intervention of modern medicine but we most certainly aren't there yet and it could definitely be taken away.

We have been ceded power and granted equality. Good for us.

People died for that.

People with dark skin and homosexuals have "been ceded power" but not because anyone sat on ass and said "well they'll be nice to us at some point." Is that a reflection of their actual inherent weakness? Or a society based on supremacist ideals? I really resent the idea that I *am* inferior and someone was nice enough to let me go to bat because they're so magnanimous.

No one was granted anything. They took it finally. You can fetishize your period and ovaries all you want, but I don't think that my "fluctuating hormones" put me at a disadvantage and shape my destiny. Men can be moody little bitches and no one has a name for it.

There is a certain you that IS you at core. I have no doubt that in the medieval era I'd be a nun, a wise woman, or dead. I have no doubt that I'd be dead in Saudi Arabia. I have no doubt that I'd have gone stark raving insane if there were no options for me but marriage babies and submission.

I heard the author of "Persepolis" on NPR talking about leaving post-revolution Tehran. She really chalked it up to her being who SHE is, an individualist "self centered" in her own estimation. Someone who knows that she, personally, does not have what is needed to function in a society with a role for her based on a collective ideology, whether it's fascism (Shah) or Islamic fundementalism (Ayatollah)

Obviously this ovaries as destiny thing doesn't work for enough people that there IS a feminist movement. If we were so inferior, why would anyone do anything differently at all?

 

[Netzach]

*I* don't associate being penetrated and penetrating to a hierarchy, ie, one being better than the other. My sexual preferences goes to doing the penetrating, but this doesn't make penetrating inherently 'better'.

Also, and in line with what Cat has suggested, the notion that the male is 'penetrating' and therefore being the 'active' one while the female is being 'penetrated' and therefore the 'passive' one is very much influenced by a masculinist and heteronormative perspective. One could very much see the vagina as enveloping, devouring, swallowing the phallus rather than the phallus penetrating the vagina. Anyone who's fisted a woman can see how the former is at least as much true as the later. The fact that we tend to see it as the later has a lot to do with our current masculinist culture which tend to privilege what is associated with being 'masculine' and what is 'masculine' with being active.


There's nothing inherently or 'naturally' feminine or masculine. What we see as 'feminine' and 'masculine' are nothing but social constructs. Which of course doesn't mean that they are any less 'real' then if they were 'natural'. But it does mean that since they are human made, they can be changed, transformed, or get rid off through social changes.

I was always obsessed with bees and ants as a kid.

The irony is that I don't like penetration that much more than other kinds of sex. It's ok, kind of overrated for me as a genre, nice in relation to certain people and contexts. Penetration as penetrator is ok too, but not tops on my list - I'm not as obsessed with shtooping ass as most people would probably assume. It's great in doses.

Honestly making people insanely horny around me and masturbating is the sexual ne plus ultra. Freud would have fun with that. So would difference feminists.

I've been really influenced by gay male culture, as a breeding ground for SM-me and as something I like reading for theory and kicks. Jean Genet kinds of stuff, as well as one-handed reading. I think this, for me, was one way to really work the idea of the aggressively-penetrated into my own consciousness. I kind of get off on aggressive bottoms (in the sex sense not the SM sense) and I'd characterize my husband as a feminine aggressive bottom, a "fuck me Daddy fuck me hard" kind of bottom. This isn't a passive stance really. But it's a good mating call for me. And the means to control via "desire to penetrate" is not to be underestimated. Control from a passive stance is often more effective than control from an active stance, as a lot of martial arts people will remind us.

 

[catalina_francisco]

We haven't been ceded or granted anything -- women have thought, written, spoken, organized, and fought for gender equality and justice, and many have been harassed, imprisoned, raped and killed for their work toward social justice. Nobody gave us anything -- what we managed to get we took it ourselves.

You took the words right out of my mouth...or keyboard as the case may be. I think for many who have been born and grown up with the rights women have fought hard for and taken, it is taken for granted and for many not even realised just exactly how different their lives could have been if women did not take that stand in history and continue to do so. The struggle is far from over, and oppression of women still exists in our society on a large scale albeit much improved from our ancestors. The danger lies in believing we have reached the magic plateau of equality and relaxing our vigil under the mistaken ideal we can do anything we want without censure, have equal rights in all areas, and stand shoulder to shoulder with men without fear or apprehension.

It seems women still do not have equal pay in so many professions including law and medicine, nor do receive equal opportunity in the workplace in most professions, and unlike their male counterparts are now expected to not only be in the workplace 100% but also handle the domestic side of life 100% while a huge percentage of men still come home after work and put their feet up while the 'little woman' get busy feeding the family, nurturing and caring for the children and cleaning the house from floor to ceiling, all expected without complaint after she has also put in an 8 or more hour day of work in the workplace. Then often in the households where men do help out a little, they feel it is a favour to their partner and act as if they should get a medal for perhaps stirring dinner while she baths the children, or helping out as in their mind they do not have to do it, should not be expected to do it, but are doing it out of the goodness and generosity of their hearts. That still speaks volumes to me that we are eons away from equality, and if we become complacent in thinking everything is OK, our daughters and grand daughters are going to be the ones to pay the ultimate price.

Catalina