Filthiness - yes or no?

[TheEarl]

From The Tonight Show


Johnny Carson: Do you think sex is dirty?

Woody Allen: Only when it's done right.



Ed


.

Hear hear.

The Earl

 

[logophile]

This thread got flooded with generalising statements like "Men can't handle women with strong sexuality, so they end up leaving them." and "They *think* they can handle it, but then they can't." and so on. All boiling down to a universal male fear of sexual inadequacy. I just got a little fed up with the stereotyping and offered an alternative and equally "true" perspective: Maybe that fear is not just a creation of their minds? Does men leave women because they think they can't satisfy them, or could it also be that women leave men because they're not satisfied? I'd say both are equally valid. I've seen both happen.

Just saying that if a woman would lower her expectations if she was with a sexually plainer bloke than her (like you said you would, and the replies in RG's thread kinda speaks for themselves), then what reason would he have to worry? Sounds like a case of communication problem more than anything else. And if that could be resolved, cue the happily ever after theme.

Now, would you mind answering my question? What in this thread, other than perhaps elsol's perspective, got you so into blues mode?

#L

Well, yes, elsol's posts were a large part of it. And knowing that so many of my passionate sisters had the same experiences as me, making what I've gone through seem more universal. Additionally, while the exchange was going on, I was involved in several side conversations with men. Some by phone, some online, and one in person (when my ex stopped to pick up my kids for the evening) and I was asking them for their perspective. They all had to agree that in their experience, most men really don't want to be with a woman who is more experienced or has a greater appetite than they do. Apparently it does lead to feelings of inadequacy or something.

For me, it's really painful to only be seen in terms of my sexuality, but that's often what happens. I am a mother and a midwife. I am fiercely loyal and very funny. I am a hard worker and completely trustworthy. But time and again for the men I've dated it comes down to "I am a bisexual woman with a large appetite and a desire to try new things." That's my entire identity in a short matter of time.

Here's the funny thing, Liar. I've been told that I'm sexually intimidating by almost everyone I've ever slept with and I honestly can't figure it out. I'm sexually submissive. Not to the degree that some are, but I'm sub nonetheless. I like to be told what to do, I like to please my partner well, I like nothing more than to be called a "Good Girl." I don't even insist on having an orgasm every time and have slept with many men who had penile function issues. None of that matters. If I have pleased you, then I the sex was satisfying. What is intimidating about that?

Anyway, I'm off to run an errand and I will be back soon.
I appreciate the opportunity to clarify my feelings and the reason for them.

And by the way... For all of us who know how bad it can be when men figure out who we are sexually, we also know to never let the average middle-American woman in on the secret. While men are intimidated by us, women despise us. They think of us as sex-depraved whores who will do anything to get laid and often believe that we're out to fuck everyone, including their husbands or the guy they fancy. As if.

 

[sophia jane]

Logo, as usual I'm right there with you.

I asked my ex and his brother last night their thoughts on this topic. Their reply (even my ex, who was married to me for nine years) said that kind of girl is great for fun, but they wouldn't become emotionally invested in her.

I find that kind of thinking very insulting. Just because I love sex, doesn't mean I am going to run around. I'm monogamous by nature. Hell, I'm having an online relationship, and I don't even cyber with anyone else- that's how monogamous I am. But for some reason, being sexual, or heaven forbid, bisexual and kinky, is taken to mean that I'm going to cheat.

SJ

 

[Kassiana]

I don't know if I can really speak to this, never having had intercourse until I was 25, and then only with the man I married.

I'm glad his sexual horizons are broader than mine, though, because I had a very inhibited sexual upbringing. Without his encouragement, for example, I doubt my inner submissive/masochist would have come to the surface. (She only "came out" late last year, and I'm still trying to deal with being a feminist and liking spankings/restraints.)

How about the latent ability to become filthy? I certainly had it, but didn't know what to do with it until I was encouraged.

 

[Kassiana]

I'm straight. NOTHING could ever turn me off men.
--Mm hm. They do have such lovely gasps when you suck their cocks just the right way.

 

[Belegon]

I have to say that I think the men of Lit are a skewed test group. At least, the AH is.

We are by association and most likely by nature more accepting of increased sexuality in our partners than the general populace.

Almost all men that I know would be intimidated by many/most of my female friends here. Even some of them that THINK they are very "liberated".

I know that I am unusual in my reveling in a woman who matches or exceeds me in this area. I don't think most guys can handle it at all.

 

[logophile]

I have to say that I think the men of Lit are a skewed test group. At least, the AH is.

We are by association and most likely by nature more accepting of increased sexuality in our partners than the general populace.

And even here, we've heard some of the men of Lit say that they don't want women like us.
It's a pity really.

 

[TheEarl]

And even here, we've heard some of the men of Lit say that they don't want women like us.
It's a pity really.

Well, there's me and Bel at least. <hugs> Where there's two, there's bound to be others.

The Earl

 

[impressive]

And even here, we've heard some of the men of Lit say that they don't want women like us.
It's a pity really.

Logo ... c'mere, sugar. I promise not to judge you.

 

[Belegon]

Logo ... c'mere, sugar. I promise not to judge you.

wait!!!! my camera's broken! just, just...just, um....I don't know, just warm up to it gradually...there is a Best Buy right down the road, I'll be back super quick!

 

[impressive]

wait!!!! my camera's broken! just, just...just, um....I don't know, just warm up to it gradually...there is a Best Buy right down the road, I'll be back super quick!

Dear, if you're that close to the two of us, you'll be taking more than pictures.

 

[logophile]

Dear, if you're that close to the two of us, you'll be taking more than pictures.

Guaranteed.

 

[logophile]

Well, there's me and Bel at least. <hugs> Where there's two, there's bound to be others.

The Earl

 

[Belegon]

Dear, if you're that close to the two of us, you'll be taking more than pictures.

now that warmed my....heart, yeah that was my heart! I swear it was!

 

[impressive]

Guaranteed.

 

[SeaCat]

You know, This whole thread has had an odd effect on me. After reading it last night and responding I lay in bed and talked with my wife about it. (We have to slow our hearts somehow don't we? ) Her reply startled me. What startled me even more was when she talked to my mother about it this afternoon on the phone.

Their reply was I am an atypical male and most men don't have the, ahem, balls to deal with a woman who is as sexual as they are. This was confirmed in a way by a comment a male co-worker made this morning. He made the comment that a woman he was dating had wanted to have sex on the beach. While he found this arousing he didn't know if he could keep going out with her. He was worried about her embarrasing him. (As though he wasn't embarrasing her when he grabbed at her tits or ass in public right?) I just shook my head and walked away from the conversation.

My ideas about sex and sexuality are a bit different than a lot men I know and I realize this. (Then again I live in the United States where in many places it is a crime to have sex with someone other than your spouse.) Sex and sexual intimacy are not the most important thing in my marriage but they are important. I am not stupid, (crazy yes, stupid no.) I know that women have needs and desires as strong and as varied as men do. Hell they might even be stronger and more varied for all I know. I am not intimidated by this, instead I am accepting of it and willing to enjoy it.

Maybe my ideas come from the way I was brought up. I was taught from an early age to think for myself and not accept anyone elses ideals or mores at face value. I was taught by a couple who I consider to be some of the smartest and most enlightened people I have ever had the joy to know that knowledge of all kinds was important, and that to gain that knowledge you must acknowledge the differences between people. (Thank you Mom and Dad.) Because of this I was not intimidated by the idea my wife had a different set of sexual experiences than I did. Instead I found it interesting and learned from it. This has made our sex lives more varied and more enjoyable than I think many other peoples.

We know for example that I don't enjoy have a hard one stuffed up my ass, but she does. We also know that while a blowjob is enjoyable to the both of us, she enjoys giving one more than I enjoy receiving one. We know that while she sometimes enjoys getting her ass spanked I don't enjoy doing this, so we never do it. Do you get my drift? her mind is as "dirty" if not more so than mine, but we both enjoy it. Hell where do you think I get some of the ideas for my stories?

I guess what I'm trying to say is I find it a shame there aren't more men, and women out there who are more accepting of the differences in attitude towards sex and sexual experience. I think their lives would be so much richer than it is now, and they would enjoy life much more than they do.

Cat

 

[minsue]

I gotta say, I think men are getting a bad rap here.

 

[logophile]

SeaCat - This thread has that effect on a lot of people. It was definitely one of those things that make you go Hmmm... I've been saying for a while that there's not a man alive who could handle all of me, not just my sexuality but my other quirks too. That's how this thread came up in the first place. Earl and I were talking about how hard it is for me to meet someone. But I was still kinda holding out hope that I would be wrong. It's been a hard couple of days for me as I've watched this thread and realized that I'm right.

I appreciate that you've taken the time to read the posts, discuss it with your wife and then post again. And I appreciate that you're not like most men. Thanks for sharing with us.

 

[Halo_n_horns]

Question for the blokes - settle an argument between myself and logophile:

Filthiness? Do you like your girls to be as filthy, or filthier than you? Do you like them to have a dirty mind full of fantasies?

Or would you be intimidated if your g/f had a more sexual mind and a bigger libido than you?

The Earl

I've been with both types and deeply loved both types. I did, however, find that the particularly strong libidoed women tend to stay satisfied for considerably less time than the women with equal or slightly less libido than myself. I don't belive it was me personally because in considering their pasts, it was pretty obvious that they were there to have as many flavors in life as possible. Good for them. Enjoy them while you've got one. But be realistic when she lets you go.

 

[Belegon]

I've been with both types and deeply loved both types. I did, however, find that the particularly strong libidoed women tend to stay satisfied for considerably less time than the women with equal or slightly less libido than myself. I don't belive it was me personally because in considering their pasts, it was pretty obvious that they were there to have as many flavors in life as possible. Good for them. Enjoy them while you've got one. But be realistic when she lets you go.

I think there has to be some matchup in appetites for the long term, or at least some kind of compensating factors.

...and I love a challenge. I would love to try and keep up. but I might need someone with connections at pfizer. not getting any younger ya know.

 

[logophile]

Enjoy them while you've got one. But be realistic when she lets you go.

Why are you rolling your eyes? I'm so confused.

Halo, this is a sincere question... Did you read the responses of the women in this thread? Did you read Rob's companion thread? Us adventurous women aren't running from less experienced, less libidoed men. We just want acceptance. The "enjoy them while you've got one" comment feels like more of the same thing - there are women you fuck and women you take home to mom and they're not the same women.

Now I know that I'm especially sensitive about this subject tonight so it's entirely possible that I'm misreading that. Please clarify and tell me what you meant by this. I'm confused and curious.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I've been with both types and deeply loved both types. I did, however, find that the particularly strong libidoed women tend to stay satisfied for considerably less time than the women with equal or slightly less libido than myself. I don't belive it was me personally because in considering their pasts, it was pretty obvious that they were there to have as many flavors in life as possible. Good for them. Enjoy them while you've got one. But be realistic when she lets you go.

I'm picking up from your post, and some others, that it's assumed and expected that women with dirty minds are promiscuous and want to try as many flavors as possible. In my mind, they are not the same thing.

From my perspective, a woman with a dirty mind has a curiousity and passion for sex. She enjoys exploring the boundaries, both physically and intellectually, and she isn't hesitant to express her appreciation of sex and its pleasures. She might swing from the chandeliers when the mood moves her; she might write porn.

A woman with a dirty mind does not necessarily need or want many partners. She could be perfectly content to explore sex with only one partner; she might even prefer it because it is such an intimate thing.

Promiscuous women are promiscuous for all kinds of reasons, but not necessarily because they have dirty minds.

 

[logophile]

Yes, LadyJ! Exactly.

I've been on my own for about 16 months now. Do you know how much sexual exploring I've done in that time? None. Because I haven't found anyone with whom to build the kind of trust I would need to really push my own boundaries. I think about it, fantasize about it, write about it... but it doesn't happen in real life.

Thanks for finding the words that were escaping me, LJ.

 

[LadyJeanne]

Yes, LadyJ! Exactly.

I've been on my own for about 16 months now. Do you know how much sexual exploring I've done in that time? None. Because I haven't found anyone with whom to build the kind of trust I would need to really push my own boundaries. I think about it, fantasize about it, write about it... but it doesn't happen in real life.

Thanks for finding the words that were escaping me, LJ.

Sweetie, I need to build that kind of trust with someone before I can get beyond the first kiss. Promiscuous, I am not. Dirty minded, I am indeed.*









*read my stories!

 

[AppleBiter]

Just wanted to pop in here to add that I'm about as dirty-minded as they come. My husband and I have been together for 9 years and have been married for 6. As one of those kind of girls, I want to make one thing perfectly clear: I have NO intention of letting him go. He satisfies me and vice versa. If he ever failed to satisfy me, I would not just pack up and leave him. I would feel uninhibited about approaching those matters with him because we are very open in our sexuality. We would work it out.

I'm not in any way posting angry, here. I may come off that way because I feel strongly. But, I think it's important for some men to realize that just because I am aware of my sexuality, I have a deep interest in it, and I love to explore it does NOT make me a slut, does not make me gross, does not make me a pervert, and does not make me less of a woman. It makes me a human being.

For some men (certainly not all, just some), I think a woman who is aware of her sexuality is somehow threatening to their ego. I'm not sure why this is, but I've encountered this quite a bit w/some of the feedback I've received on my essay, "Women Are Nasty, Too." Some men are SO adamant that women can't possibly be that sexual . . . it's almost defensive. Makes me wonder why they are so threatened.

My husband, personally, verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry much enjoys my blatant, raw sexuality and the many outlets that I use to express it. I guess it just puzzles me why other men wouldn't be the same.

Anyway, I just wanted to make it clear that just because a woman expresses her sexuality does not make her a slut or a person more likely to commit infedelity, for crying out loud. (Exasperated, not pissed)

My 2 Centavos,

AppleBiter

Edited: Sorry to be so wordy. I guess I'm in a passionate, ranty mood tonight.

Edited again to say: Yes, I know "ranty" is not a word.