For Those Who Might Be Wondering Why We Might Be In Ukraine

[ChloeTzang]

Poignant (sorry, didn't realize it was limited to non subscribers)
From the Dispatch - Rooting for Laundry, Patriotism in an age of villainy
https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/donald-trump-patriotism-america-2/

The corollary of this is that any agreement will need massive numbers of peacekeepers, and no-one will go on without US boots on the ground and Trump won't put the, there because as everyone knows, Putin has never yet kept an agreement he signed. A ceasefire will supposed to be started at 09:00am and at 09:05am the Russians will break it and start shooting. Trump can sign all the paper he likes but that won't stop the war. And now the EU seems to be REALLY committing, Zelensky and Ukraine can and will simply ignore whatever's signed between Trump and Putin as irrelevant. Zelensky reacted in the only way one should react to such zombie idiotism, and explained that, essentially, any kind of agreements between the USA and Russia reached without Ukrainian involvement, are worth nothing.

I would go a step further and add that this idiocy of Trump's is not even worth attention and should be as ignored as Putin’s threats of using nukes.

‘Sending peacekeepers’ to far smaller Kosovo, back in 1999, required 50,000 troops - which the EU (even the European part of NATO, nowadays) is (still) likely to experience massive problems just with finding, to start with. Ukraine as over a million troops in their Army. Russia has 600,000 in Ukraine. Any peacekeeping force, to be effective is going to need at least a couple of hundred thousand, and they'll need to be prepared to respond effectively, and prepared to fight Russia too, because the Russian's won't keep any agreement.

Nope, this initiative of Trump's will collapse and fade into a well-deserved oblivion, however loudly Trump rants and raves. I suspect Zelensky and Ukraine will simply keep stating the obvious, which is that any agreement reached without their participation is worth less than the paper it's written on, and meanwhile Ukraine will keep on inflicting massive losses on the Russians. The ZSU has fought Russia to a standstill, the Russians are falling back on donkey's for logistics, they cannot achieve any strategic victory, the ZSU is reorganizing into a far more effective corps structure which should help in resolving some of the issues they have been having, making them more effective. It sounds very much as if the EU is going to empty the cupboards to provide equipment, as well as providing massive funding....

Trump and Putin between them have succeeded in waking the sleeping giant, and a militarily resurgent Europe is something to be feared. You're looking at the most warlike region of the planet here, and once the Germans, British, and French begin to seriously remilitarize (the Poles already are)....and together, focused on external enemies, well, Putin's toast. The EU dwarfs Russia in capacity and size, and taken together, exceeds the US - and they haven't outsourced all their industrial manufacturig to China either.

To quote Churchill, "....this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

 

[Lance_Castro]

https://www.reuters.com/resizer/v2/DIOCCN2IXZOF5BBCBIERBDJJLY.jpg?auth=b6158304bccff0c3ad3e33744e81fae3a4eba9e765287c04bcbec51e1c34c769&width=2259&quality=80https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/07/21/books/review/21Olson/merlin_23352849_dd45e7f2-c2f0-4fee-9ae5-e1e51052cca0-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale
Look at the subservience in Chamberlain’s handshake.

I cant find one of Trump not dominating Putin in a handshake.

 

[ChloeTzang]

rotflmao. The likely outcome of any Ukrainian election....

But in any case, Elections are NOT possible under the Ukrainian constitution and it's unlikely they will change their constitution to accommodate American backstabbing, so however amusing the thought, it's not an option.

 

[ChloeTzang]

This, by the way, was a poll from December 2024. In the poll (there's more than the below), we see 3 key results.

First, a large majority of Ukrainians do not support holding elections during martial law but more interestingly, Zelensky wins or loses depending on the opponent.

According to the results, 4-star Ukrainian general and diplomat Zaluzhnyi beats Zelensky (68% to 32% in the 2nd round) in both polls.

And Zelensky beats Poroshenko (67% to 33% in the 2nd round), if Zaluzhnyi does not participate.

The results would not be as desired by either Trump or Putin.

 

[ll74]

This, by the way, was a poll from December 2024. In the poll (there's more than the below), we see 3 key results.

First, a large majority of Ukrainians do not support holding elections during martial law but more interestingly, Zelensky wins or loses depending on the opponent.

According to the results, 4-star Ukrainian general and diplomat Zaluzhnyi beats Zelensky (68% to 32% in the 2nd round) in both polls.

And Zelensky beats Poroshenko (67% to 33% in the 2nd round), if Zaluzhnyi does not participate.

The results would not be as desired by either Trump or Putin.


View attachment 2497725

So in conclusion, not 4%.

I was not a huge fan of 46's foreign policy decisions but he held the values of democracy and western values in a much higher regard than 47 who I expect will be telling Xi to take Taiwan tomorrow.

 

[ChloeTzang]

So in conclusion, not 4%.

I was not a huge fan of 46's foreign policy decisions but he held the values of democracy and western values in a much higher regard than 47 who I expect will be telling Xi to take Taiwan tomorrow.

Well, say what I will about 46, which is a lot and most of it disparaging LOL, he did leave all the work to the professional political-managerial class, who preferred the established way of doing things and not shaking up anything radically. They may have been timid and wrong on a lot of things, but they obviously preferred the status quo. Yes, it's obvious in hindsight the Biden Administration withheld any military aid that would be substantial enough for Ukraine to win, and it's also obvious in hindsight that Biden's initial response gave Putin the idea that he could go ahead with the invasion - and the initial reactions of Biden and Scholz more or less confirmed that. But in the end they did step up, half heartedly to be sure, but they didn't try to throw Ukraine under the bus the way 47 seems intent on doing.

I think 47 has met his match in Zelensky and Ukrainians tho. This is just one more obstacle they face and it ain't gonna work.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Rubio at least has his head screwed on and recognizes there is no quick fix.

 

[ChloeTzang]

 

[ChloeTzang]

 

[ChloeTzang]

And this is why the Russians are falling back on donkey's for logistics....all Ukraine needs to do is keep this up and as the Russian logistical tail disintegrates, the end will come. There won't be any grand offensive until the end, when things suddenly collapse......

 

[ChloeTzang]

Donkey's vs ground drones.....

 

[ChloeTzang]

For the next 40 years, Ukraine's version of Mossad is going to make Mossad look like an episode of Sesame Street. Whatever is negotiated with Russia, Ukraine will be hunting down Russian war criminals and executing them.

 

[Lazaran]

Well, say what I will about 46, which is a lot and most of it disparaging LOL, he did leave all the work to the professional political-managerial class, who preferred the established way of doing things and not shaking up anything radically. They may have been timid and wrong on a lot of things, but they obviously preferred the status quo. Yes, it's obvious in hindsight the Biden Administration withheld any military aid that would be substantial enough for Ukraine to win, and it's also obvious in hindsight that Biden's initial response gave Putin the idea that he could go ahead with the invasion - and the initial reactions of Biden and Scholz more or less confirmed that. But in the end they did step up, half heartedly to be sure, but they didn't try to throw Ukraine under the bus the way 47 seems intent on doing.

I think 47 has met his match in Zelensky and Ukrainians tho. This is just one more obstacle they face and it ain't gonna work.

Chloe “Chicongo” Tzang is a traitorous MAGAt that voted for President Musk (and DonOld, etc).

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/02/19/europe/zelensky-trump-reaction-intl

From the article:

Trump calls Zelensky ‘a dictator’ after Ukraine’s leader accuses him of living in ‘disinformation space’​

Chloe “Chicongo” Tzang



Also:

We. Told. Then. So.

 

[Rightguide]

Another take on the issue:

The Art of the Sabotage: The Far Left’s Betrayal of Ukraine Is Coming​

Scott Pinsker | 7:23 PM on February 18, 2025

I’ll open with the punchline, but be forewarned — there’s nothing funny about it: The Far Left will betray Ukraine because they hate Trump more than they care about the Ukrainian people.

Those poor, suffering civilians in Ukraine? They’re abstractions — mere cannon fodder for a greater cause. Been that way since the beginning of the conflict, and although the Biden administration never formally admitted it, slaughtering Russians and Ukrainians in a long, protracted bloodbath was America’s objective all along.

Sure, we “dolled up” the policy with high-minded speeches about protecting liberty and Russia being evil and/or Ukraine being pure and good, and vowing that Putin “cannot remain in power,” but we never sought any sort of resolution. Not really. Instead, we armed Ukraine with just enough equipment, weapons, technology, and artillery to maintain the status quo.

It was a bloodbath we wanted, and a bloodbath we got.

From the Far Left’s viewpoint, the plan made sense: Russia was our “enemy” — especially after they interfered in the 2016 election and cheated poor Hillary out of the presidency. And then, in 2022, they invaded a neighboring country. Y’know who else invaded their neighbors? That’s right: HITLER! Clearly, it’s in our strategic interest to weaken the next Hitler.

All the rest here: https://pjmedia.com/scott-pinsker/2...-lefts-betrayal-of-ukraine-is-coming-n4937104

 

[ishtat]

This type of action is indicative of a transitioning. Even if some sort of settlement is forced on this region the Russians have engendered so much hatred that they can anticipate a more or less permanent insurrection for the next 30-50 years. Ukraine and the neighboring parts of Russia will be turned into a permanent hit and run battleground, much as Ireland was for so many years. If some sort of 'peace' is declared in the next few months or years, it will eventually dawn on the Russians that they have already lost. This will be a solid result for both the West and China, because Russia has been economically ruined, booted out of the Middle East, effectively emasculated in Eastern Europe, cut off from Africa and lost domination of Central/Eastern Asia to China.

Even Donald Trump couldn't mess this up.

I forecast this situation a month ago.(4227 27th January) No peace deal without a degree of consent from both sides will stick. My final sentence was however clearly wrong, Trump can mess this up; watch out for Turkey in the next week or two; they are seriously pissed off. The great unknown is what hold does Putin have on Trump and why. I still think that the best interests of the USA are served by a permanent state of low level war/insurrection.

 

[Rightguide]

Well now:

BREAKING: Trump calls for Ukraine to hold presidential election as part of peace deal with Russia​

"We have a situation where we haven’t had elections in Ukraine, where we have martial law, essentially martial law in Ukraine."

Comment Below
https://mr.cdn.ignitecdn.com/client_assets/thepostmillennial_com/media/picture/67b5/03dc/1e96/835b/1873/d5ee/original_trump_z.jpeg?1739916254
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Hannah NightingaleWashington DC
Feb 18, 20252 minute read


President Donald Trump was questioned about talks US officials had with Russian officials on the prospect of peace in Ukraine on Tuesday during a press conference from Mar-a-Lago, including Russia’s reported demand that Ukraine hold elections in order for a peace deal to be signed.

"We have a situation where we haven’t had elections in Ukraine, where we have martial law, essentially martial law in Ukraine," Trump said, adding that the "leader in Ukraine, I mean, I hate to say it, but he’s down at 4 percent approval rating" and most of the country has been "blown to smithereens."

"And yeah, I would say that, you know, when they want a seat at the table, you could say the people have to — wouldn’t the people of Ukraine have to say, like, you know, it’s been a long time since we’ve had an election," Trump continued.

"That’s not a Russia thing, that’s something coming from me and coming from many other countries."

https://thepostmillennial.com/break...al-election-as-part-of-peace-deal-with-russia

 

[Politruk]

Another take on the issue:

The Art of the Sabotage: The Far Left’s Betrayal of Ukraine Is Coming​

Scott Pinsker | 7:23 PM on February 18, 2025

I’ll open with the punchline, but be forewarned — there’s nothing funny about it: The Far Left will betray Ukraine because they hate Trump more than they care about the Ukrainian people.

Those poor, suffering civilians in Ukraine? They’re abstractions — mere cannon fodder for a greater cause. Been that way since the beginning of the conflict, and although the Biden administration never formally admitted it, slaughtering Russians and Ukrainians in a long, protracted bloodbath was America’s objective all along.

Sure, we “dolled up” the policy with high-minded speeches about protecting liberty and Russia being evil and/or Ukraine being pure and good, and vowing that Putin “cannot remain in power,” but we never sought any sort of resolution. Not really. Instead, we armed Ukraine with just enough equipment, weapons, technology, and artillery to maintain the status quo.

It was a bloodbath we wanted, and a bloodbath we got.

From the Far Left’s viewpoint, the plan made sense: Russia was our “enemy” — especially after they interfered in the 2016 election and cheated poor Hillary out of the presidency. And then, in 2022, they invaded a neighboring country. Y’know who else invaded their neighbors? That’s right: HITLER! Clearly, it’s in our strategic interest to weaken the next Hitler.

All the rest here: https://pjmedia.com/scott-pinsker/2...-lefts-betrayal-of-ukraine-is-coming-n4937104

Only an idiot would cite PJmedia.

PJ Media (formerly Pajamas Media, a.k.a. PJM, PJMedia, Open Source Media, or PJTV) is a far-right Christofascist blog founded in 2005 by Roger L. Simon and Charles Johnson and largely financed by Canadian-born software coder Aubrey Chernick.[1] Pajamas Media was described variously as an advertising network, an alt-right conservative blogging network, an Internet aggregator, a multimedia hate site and a sinkhole into which investment dollars vanished. In 2009, Simon officially dissolved Pajamas Media, replacing it with PJTV, a subscriber-supported video hosting site. After the failure of PJTV in 2016, PJ Media devolved into a blog collecting the gibberings of various wingnuts. In 2019, it was acquired by Salem Media Group.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png[2]

 

[Rightguide]

Only an idiot would cite PJmedia.

PJ Media (formerly Pajamas Media, a.k.a. PJM, PJMedia, Open Source Media, or PJTV) is a far-right Christofascist blog founded in 2005 by Roger L. Simon and Charles Johnson and largely financed by Canadian-born software coder Aubrey Chernick.[1] Pajamas Media was described variously as an advertising network, an alt-right conservative blogging network, an Internet aggregator, a multimedia hate site and a sinkhole into which investment dollars vanished. In 2009, Simon officially dissolved Pajamas Media, replacing it with PJTV, a subscriber-supported video hosting site. After the failure of PJTV in 2016, PJ Media devolved into a blog collecting the gibberings of various wingnuts. In 2019, it was acquired by Salem Media Group.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Wikipedia%27s_W.svg/12px-Wikipedia%27s_W.svg.png[2]

Only a real idiot would say what you just said.

 

[Lazaran]

I forecast this situation a month ago.(4227 27th January) No peace deal without a degree of consent from both sides will stick. My final sentence was however clearly wrong, Trump can mess this up; watch out for Turkey in the next week or two; they are seriously pissed off. The great unknown is what hold does Putin have on Trump and why. I still think that the best interests of the USA are served by a permanent state of low level war/insurrection.

This type of action is indicative of a transitioning. Even if some sort of settlement is forced on this region the Russians have engendered so much hatred that they can anticipate a more or less permanent insurrection for the next 30-50 years. Ukraine and the neighboring parts of Russia will be turned into a permanent hit and run battleground, much as Ireland was for so many years. If some sort of 'peace' is declared in the next few months or years, it will eventually dawn on the Russians that they have already lost. This will be a solid result for both the West and China, because Russia has been economically ruined, booted out of the Middle East, effectively emasculated in Eastern Europe, cut off from Africa and lost domination of Central/Eastern Asia to China.

Even Donald Trump couldn't mess this up.

It continues to be apparent that President Biden had the perfect strategy for dealing with / defeating Putin / Russia: The results tell the story.

THANK YOU PRESIDENT BIDEN!!!





Slava Ukraini!!!







Jinx!!!

We. Told. Them. So.

 

[Politruk]

Only a real idiot would say what you just said.

You can't gainsay a word of it. That's what PJmedia is.

 

[ll74]

Only a real idiot would say what you just said.

PJ media is the absolute worst writing on the Internet

 

[ll74]

I think that Ukraine should agree to new elections only after a guaranteed of security
AND
The resignation of Putin followed by Russian elections without Putin on the ballot
AND
A guarantee that Putin will never hold office again.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Incorrect. The Ukrainian Constitution expressly forbids elections during a war. Zelensky is President for the duration. The next election will be after the war is over. Just as it was in the UK in WW2. You just do not do elections during an existential war for survival. That's the way it is.

I'm afraid Trump is way out to lunch on this one. He's now blaming Ukraine for starting this war and that's just sick.

Yah, but you voted for him anyhow, after you were repeatedly warned that this is exactly what he would do.
Fuck off and cry about it elsewhere, you helped make this happen.

 

[Rebel5soul]

The support for the Ukraine in the continuing war has eroded severely with the American public over the past 3 years, as had their confidence that Zelensky is acting in the best interests of the Ukrainian peoples or international stability. The same erosion has occurred with the republican law makers.

Obviously Russia and Putin are not good guys in this drama and it's fitting to be pissed off at what was done, but for third parties not only being willing, but actively encouraging, fighting the Russians to the very last Ukrainian can't be said to be moral or ethical.

Now comes Trump essentially dumping Zelensky. I think too many people are reading this totally wrong, go get yourself a copy of "The Art of the Deal" and read it. Trump is right in character here and is sending a message to Putin and Zelensky. And that message is that he's not going to be sitting on either one of their sides at the table. And you better realize that if he's going to be an honest broker in these negotiations that is exactly where he has to be, in the middle and adversarial to BOTH sides. (And this is where the 'never Trumper's' are fucked up. Not being on Zelensky's side is not the same as being on Putin's side either. This is NOT a binary situation.)

Trumps goal is to stop the bleeding in both blood and treasure. Every person of good sense should be hoping he's successful.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

The support for the Ukraine in the continuing war has eroded severely with the American public over the past 3 years,

Really? Could have fooled me Ish.....


https://www.brookings.edu/articles/...ay-the-course-in-ukraine-as-long-as-it-takes/