Former pastor: I don't think God exists

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Or another good one.. the Geneology of Jesus..

In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the claimed husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true?

Or King Solomon's sacrifice to the Temple: Solomon’s Sacrifice

2 Chronicles 7:5 And King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand head of cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the people dedicated the temple of God.

2 Chronicles 7:8-9 So Solomon observed the festival at that time for seven days, and all Israel with him—a vast assembly, people from Lebo [a] Hamath to the Wadi of Egypt. On the eighth day they held an assembly, for they had celebrated the dedication of the altar for seven days and the festival for seven days more.
That’s 22,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep in a single week. That’s about 850 animals an hour, 14 every minute.

 

[ThereAre4Lights]

I don't see why this is so outrageous. I mean, I guess I can understand the point that he was a pastor and therefore so deep in it that it would be a lasting and abiding commitment even to the eyes of secularist outsiders.

But, having experienced my own fallout and "dwindling in unbelief" (as the Bible refers to it) starting at 25 and culminating just 3 years ago, I can sympathize. There was a lot about it that didn't make sense to me both in and outside of the context of the Book.

I came to fully doubt because the things--particularly in the Old Testament--that I normally brushed over, prayed about and made excuses for, all became too big for me to ignore. I still believe there's room for the idea of God in modern society. But there's no reason it should be expected or mandated by law or, in my opinion, in every day practice of society. I will gladly support christians or other religious types, atheists, agnostics, deists, etc. in any reasonably just cause.

So, I can see this pastor looking day after day through a scripture he has begun to doubt, questioning why he leads the congregation in songs about God being the same today, yesterday and forevermore when the entire reason he's there on a Sunday (instead of the actual sabbath), let alone his actual religion itself is because the very foundation is built on the fact that God's mind can be changed. And then he wonders... "What's this all about, really?"

I'm not saying that full disbelief is the only conclusion, but in that context, I can definitely see it making a lot of sense.

 

[about_average]

Only part of what I was thinking, but you only put a drop of water in the cup...

Here is a little more on the subject you picked out.

http://bibleresources.org/biblical-prophecies-concerning-jesus/

You do realize, don't you, that all those "fulfilled prophecies" were written by men after the fact?

Add to that there are no original writings of the Bible still in existence and that many of the copies that today's Bible is based on were "written" by illiterates, I wouldn't assign a lot of weight to them.

 

[phrodeau]

You do realize, don't you, that all those "fulfilled prophecies" were written by men after the fact?

Add to that there are no original writings of the Bible still in existence and that many of the copies that today's Bible is based on were "written" by illiterates, I wouldn't assign a lot of weight to them.

And they still manage to contradict each other. It's a wonder that it ever made the best-sellers list.

 

[ThereAre4Lights]

And they still manage to contradict each other. It's a wonder that it ever made the best-sellers list.

I'd say "amen to that" but it seems somehow inappropriate in this context

 

[FGB]

You do realize, don't you, that all those "fulfilled prophecies" were written by men after the fact?

Add to that there are no original writings of the Bible still in existence and that many of the copies that today's Bible is based on were "written" by illiterates, I wouldn't assign a lot of weight to them.

And you do realize such things were handed down by word of mouth long before there was writing just like all ancient knowledge right?

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

And you do realize such things were handed down by word of mouth long before there was writing just like all ancient knowledge right?

Have you ever played telephone?

People can't keep a story even remotely straight passing it from one to another around a small group. How accurate do you think stories are after a couple of hundred years?

 

[FGB]

Have you ever played telephone?

People can't keep a story even remotely straight passing it from one to another around a small group. How accurate do you think stories are after a couple of hundred years?

Depends on how important the information is.

 

[phrodeau]

Did the Great Flood (Genesis 6) extinguish the flaming sword guarding the Tree of Life (Genesis 3)?

 

[Que]

Did the Great Flood (Genesis 6) extinguish the flaming sword guarding the Tree of Life (Genesis 3)?

No but the sea level rises predicted by the great prophet, Algore surely will.

 

[Disgustipated]

No but the sea level rises predicted by the great prophet, Algore surely will.

You're so out of touch you think Al Gore is still relevant.

 

[Tryharder62]

The reason that this topic can be debated on and on is that an element of belief in a higher power has to do with faith. It's like having faith that the sun is out there even on a cloudy day or that love exists even when we are alone. It brings a whole other dimension to the discussion.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

The reason that this topic can be debated on and on is that an element of belief in a higher power has to do with faith. It's like having faith that the sun is out there even on a cloudy day or that love exists even when we are alone. It brings a whole other dimension to the discussion.

Those are two completely different kinds of faith. This has been pointed out repeatedly.

Faith that the sun is still there on a cloudy day is a belief in something that will remain as it has been in the past. This is the everyday kind of faith. You have evidence that the sun exists, and has existed for as long as you can remember (having seen it). You believe it's still there because it always has been. You have faith that your spouse still loves you even if they aren't with you at the moment, because they have demonstrated this in the past.

Faith in God is "Blind faith", belief in something when you have no proof of it's existence. It's not an "element" of that belief, it is completely blind faith in something you can't see. This is what God requires of his followers.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Depends on how important the information is.

No, it really doesn't, as anyone who's played "telephone" can tell you. By the time you get around to the tenth telling the story is nearly unrecognizable from the first telling. It doesn't matter what the subject is, every single person will alter the story a bit either because they misheard or intentionally change something to make it "better".

Now take something as long as a book in the Bible and pass that along from person to person over a couple of hundred years before someone writes it down. Imagine how much was changed, intentionally or not, by those telling the stories.

You can try to fool yourself into believing that they were the same (because they were so important), but the reality is that there is almost zero chance that is true.

 

[Tryharder62]

Those are two completely different kinds of faith. This has been pointed out repeatedly.

Faith that the sun is still there on a cloudy day is a belief in something that will remain as it has been in the past. This is the everyday kind of faith. You have evidence that the sun exists, and has existed for as long as you can remember (having seen it). You believe it's still there because it always has been. You have faith that your spouse still loves you even if they aren't with you at the moment, because they have demonstrated this in the past.

Faith in God is "Blind faith", belief in something when you have no proof of it's existence. It's not an "element" of that belief, it is completely blind faith in something you can't see. This is what God requires of his followers.

Faith in God is not "blind faith". It is a choice based on the available information. The Bible, the created world, the changed lives of believers, Jesus Christ, and other ways God operates in our world provide sufficient evidence for people to choose faith in God. The great thing is we have a choice. '

 

[BotanyBoy]

Faith in God is not "blind faith". It is a choice based on the available information. The Bible, the created world, the changed lives of believers, Jesus Christ, and other ways God operates in our world provide sufficient evidence for people to choose faith in God. The great thing is we have a choice. '

The Bible .......LMFAO!!!! All the horrifying shit going on in the world = his operation...GREAT EVIDENCE, that he's a total piece of shit and completely unworthy of his title or our reverence.

And faith?

The X-MEN ARE REAL!! I have books that say they are and accurately depict numerous historical occasions of them saving the world!

Not blind faith....just crazy as fuck.

 

[someoneyouknow]

Faith in God is not "blind faith".

. . .

The great thing is we have a choice. '

Jesus didn't. He was too busy fixing the mistakes made by his father.

 

[Tryharder62]

Jesus didn't. He was too busy fixing the mistakes made by his father.

You know for me, if I were God, there is no wayyyyyyy I would sacrifice one of my son's for any other person. I could not do it. I would just zap the people with lightening bolts that needed to be zapped and make 'em act the way I want them too. I would want everyone to like me, of course. Instead He gave us a choice to like him or not. Jesus did have a choice: John 10:18 said that "No one takes My life, I give it willingly.... John 15:13 "No greater love than this but to lay down one's life for a friend." He chose to die on the cross.

So watch it Botany Boy
http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Graphics/SpaceInvader/backgrounds/zap.svg
Not so crazy now am I

 

[someoneyouknow]

You know for me, if I was God, there is no wayyyyyyy I would sacrifice one of my son's for any other person. I could not do it. I would just zap the people with lightening bolts that needed to be zapped and make 'em act the way I want them too. I would want everyone to like me, of course. Instead He gave us a choice to like him or not. Jesus did have a choice: John 10:18 said that "No one takes My life, I give it willingly.... John 15:13 "No greater love than this but to lay down one's life for a friend." He chose to die on the cross.

So watch it Botany Boy
http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Graphics/SpaceInvader/backgrounds/zap.svg
Not so crazy now am I

But if God created him so he would cleanse our "sins" (which God created in the first place), it wasn't really a choice, was it? God had already preordained that his son, which he had born to another man's wife (breaking two of his own Commandments), was going to die to fix his mistakes.

Of course the real question is (to borrow from The Matrix), what if Jesus had said, "No! I'm not going to let myself get killed to fix YOUR mistakes. You're God. Take care of them yourself."?

 

[Tryharder62]

But if God created him so he would cleanse our "sins" (which God created in the first place), it wasn't really a choice, was it? God had already preordained that his son, which he had born to another man's wife (breaking two of his own Commandments), was going to die to fix his mistakes.

Of course the real question is (to borrow from The Matrix), what if Jesus had said, "No! I'm not going to let myself get killed to fix YOUR mistakes. You're God. Take care of them yourself."?

You ask great questions. This is just what I think. Jesus has always existed along with God. I believe in One God who exists in three persons God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. In John 1:1 it says that In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. The word here is referring to Jesus Christ. So Jesus has always existed along with God and the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe that God created sin. He did allow us to have free choice and we don't always choose according to his purpose.

He fortold Jesus' birth and the prophecy was fulfilled. Why it had to be done that way only God knows. Joseph was betrothed to Mary which is much more binding than our current engagements but still not married. He could have gotten out of impending marriage and brought a lot of shame to Mary. Why God chose to do it that way only He knows.

I have no idea what would have happened if Jesus has decided not to die on the cross. Scary thought.

 

[phrodeau]

If not Jesus, some other wannabe. There were lots of them around, and still are.

 

[someoneyouknow]

I don't believe that God created sin. He did allow us to have free choice and we don't always choose according to his purpose.

Um, if God didn't create sin, who did? If he gave us free choice then quite obviously sin was one of those choices.

Joseph was betrothed to Mary which is much more binding than our current engagements but still not married.

So people worship/follow a bastard child?

He could have gotten out of impending marriage and brought a lot of shame to Mary. Why God chose to do it that way only He knows.

And there it is. Like the eternal question, "If God exists, who created God?" followed by the answer, "It's always existed", saying God has a plan is a cop out. What plan could it possibly have for giving a 5 year old a congenital heart condition such that she needs a heart transplant? This also means someone else her age has to die. What did the girl ever do to deserve this condition?

I have no idea what would have happened if Jesus has decided not to die on the cross. Scary thought.

I wasn't expecting you, or anyone, to be able to answer the question. It was one of those, "What if..." ones that get tossed out. Based on human history, there's still a ton of "sin" around so apparently nothing has changed.

Which leads back to the original story, this former pastor realized that despite everything he had been taught, mankind hasn't changed and there isn't a need to believe in a God. Being good to one another is the default without the necessity for an omnipotent being who apparently can't follow its own rules and has a twisted sense of entitlement (Yo, Abraham! You need to kill one of your sons to prove your loyalty to me. . . . Naw, just kidding!).

 

[Tryharder62]

I hear what you are saying. I wish I had all the answers. I would never try to say I understand why anyone has to suffer. I just have a hard time believing that this life is all there is. The bad that has happened is all there is. I need the hope of something more. Because if this is all there is I'm ready to be done.

 

[FGB]

Tryharder62, there is a fundamental mistake new Christians and Non-Christians alike make... even seasoned Christians forget sometimes and even those who understand it find it hard to accept at one time or the other.

http://biblehub.com/numbers/23-19.htm


That is, God is GOD. He ( For like of a better word concept) by his own admission always was, is, and always will be.

He does not Think like us. His ways are not our ways. He does not second guess himself.

While God does care about us when we are alive, our time here on earth is when compared to eternity, is likened to a man pushing his finger in to a container of water and withdrawing it. Short amount of time and leaves no noticeable signs of his passing in the eons of time.

No matter how Great or unknown we are here unless it is for Gods work or set purposes...it just doesn't amount to much. we still get old and die.

(Yikes!) Did I write all that!

Later.

 

[phrodeau]

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, so he does not lie.

Genesis 21:12 But God told Abraham, "Do not be upset over the boy and your servant. Do whatever Sarah tells you, for Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted. 13 But I will also make a nation of the descendants of Hagar's son because he is your son, too."

Genesis 22:2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, whom you love--Isaac--and go to the region of Moriah."

Sure looks like a lie to me.