Girls and romanticism

[SubKekiLee]

In a relationship with someone like me, what you would be "missing" is the fact that I genuinely appreciate unsolicited expressions of the wants, needs, and desires of a submissive partner.... UNLESS the expressions are delivered in a tone that I find unacceptable, or in a manner or at a time that I don't appreciate.

beautifully put JM.... You words are always great..

 

[Homburg]

I don't know why there's so much hostility. You see it so often around here - I AM AN EGGPLANT. My definition of an eggplant is a girl with a nice ass. I am eggplant! End of story!

Okay, but then what it does it mean when I call the little globes in my fridge eggplants? If it's a girl with a nice ass to some people, but a vegetable to others, how the hell will we know what we're having for dinner? (Come on - eggplant humor!)

Language matters. Words matter. If they didn't, Imus would never have been kicked off the air. He could just say, what, my definition of nappy headed hos is really awesome female basketball players! Fuck off!

We are here to discuss and argue and vent and share. We don't have to agree all the time, and we don't have to rely on others for our sense of self-worth. I don't need you (general you) to tell me I'm a good person, girl, woman, submissive, bottom, whatthefuckevah. (Though it is part of my kink, and do include a pat on the head, okay?)

You're a good eggplant, baby. *pats on the head*

As to language, well, philosophically speaking I'm a post-modernist in many ways, and, boy does that fuck with your perceptions at times. In short, language is how we arrange our worlds internally. Anything that we can express, we can experience, and anything we cannot experience we cannot comprehend. It's like seventeen books more complex than that, but the bottom line is that we are (largely) linguistic processors, and our world is based on labels. The mind is just so apt at categorising and presenting these labels that there is no conscious perception of them.

As a result, language is deeply important, and words can do serious damage. Imus? Whatever. He was stupid, and got shafted for it. It has no bearing on how much of a juicy eggplant you are though...

 

[intothewoods]

You're a good eggplant, baby. *pats on the head*

As to language, well, philosophically speaking I'm a post-modernist in many ways, and, boy does that fuck with your perceptions at times. In short, language is how we arrange our worlds internally. Anything that we can express, we can experience, and anything we cannot experience we cannot comprehend. It's like seventeen books more complex than that, but the bottom line is that we are (largely) linguistic processors, and our world is based on labels. The mind is just so apt at categorising and presenting these labels that there is no conscious perception of them.

As a result, language is deeply important, and words can do serious damage. Imus? Whatever. He was stupid, and got shafted for it. It has no bearing on how much of a juicy eggplant you are though...

Post-modernism is a hard limit. Ow, college memories. Ow.

My familiarity with post-modern theory was with political theory, but I know a bit about it in the area of literature. Wasn't the idea that words have no meaning, and we all assign whatever meaning we want? Ahem, the person who told me that didn't look too highly on post-modern theorists, what can I say?

I guess I see the issue as, not surprisingly, hmmm, maybe, sociopolitical - groups, communities, tribes - how do we see ourselves. Jews, and in particular, American Jews argue about what a Jew is all the damn time. Must we support Israel? Must we go to synagogue? May we have a Christmas tree in the house? That debate keeps us alive as a Jewish people, and we're a group fighting to stay alive, frankly (given intermarriage rates, etc.).

If submissive is whatever, um, what was my anonymous friend named in another thread - slutgirl69? - says it is for her, but something entirely different for me, and entirely different for ADR, and entirely different for KC, or CutieMouse, or Bunny (who's a switch, of course), then what are we doing here? What do we have in common anyway?

 

[doveofserenity]

Well said on both counts, bravo.

I like hearing what she wants, though I am unlikely to actually give her whatever it is right then. It helps me to know what she likes and desires so that I can put it on The List. And when I feel like hitting that particular point on The List, it gets done, if ever. And eeeevery once in a while, what she wants is just so very hot that it has to get done right then. I am unashamed to take inspiration from all kinds of sources.

OOOh, You have "A List"? Hmmm, this could get very interesting. ~bites my lip, giggling~

 

[Homburg]

Post-modernism is a hard limit. Ow, college memories. Ow.

My familiarity with post-modern theory was with political theory, but I know a bit about it in the area of literature. Wasn't the idea that words have no meaning, and we all assign whatever meaning we want? Ahem, the person who told me that didn't look too highly on post-modern theorists, what can I say?

Well, it's a gross oversimplification, but so was mine. Meaning is elusive in post-modernism, and there are no real hard truths. Language is a social construct, and thus so is reality. Like I said, complex, seventeen books worth, adn all the reall good ones are in German...

I guess I see the issue as, not surprisingly, hmmm, maybe, sociopolitical - groups, communities, tribes - how do we see ourselves. Jews, and in particular, American Jews argue about what a Jew is all the damn time. Must we support Israel? Must we go to synagogue? May we have a Christmas tree in the house? That debate keeps us alive as a Jewish people, and we're a group fighting to stay alive, frankly (given intermarriage rates, etc.).

In the post-modernist view, discourse in general keeps us alive and functioning as sentient beings. Nothing defines the difference bewteen sentience and non-sentience better than serious discourse, thus the various Turing tests.

If submissive is whatever, um, what was my anonymous friend named in another thread - slutgirl69? - says it is for her, but something entirely different for me, and entirely different for ADR, and entirely different for KC, or CutieMouse, or Bunny (who's a switch, of course), then what are we doing here? What do we have in common anyway?

Different loving. Some of us like to hit, others like to be hit. Some like to tie, others like to be tied. Some like to kneel, others like to be knelt before. We all enjoy vaguely similar sexual practices that inform the rest of our existences in interesting ways. And we find common ground thereon to discuss our shared experiences, similarities, and differences.

And most of us can agree that eggplants are hot.

 

[Homburg]

OOOh, You have "A List"? Hmmm, this could get very interesting. ~bites my lip, giggling~

Not "A List", "The List". The really good stuff is written down in a steno pad that sits on my nightstand beside the bed.

 

[Netzach]

I am calling horse dookie on both sides of this argument, admittedlly having skimmed the thread.

Real submission in MY personal world does not sit there and pout because no one brought flowers. Sorry, everyone. This is another reason I have boy after boy after boy, I guess. But they seem to get it.

However, whether or not you are allowed to ask for, or direct, or tell, you have managed to communicate your submissive desire and drive to your partner, you have managed to communicate enough of your core needs, however few they might be, to your Dominant, and you have managed to respond to that person in a way that meshes with theirs, and they have communicated theirs to you. Maybe non-verbally. Maybe not with asking fior things, but with a form of communication. They did not see you across the room and know what to do with you, even if it seems that way or feels that way.

As for "well then you've never experienced charmed chemistry like mine"
Fine, sure. Also horse dookie.

So horse dookie on everyone.

 

[A Desert Rose]

In a relationship with someone like me, what you would be "missing" is the fact that I genuinely appreciate unsolicited expressions of the wants, needs, and desires of a submissive partner.... UNLESS the expressions are delivered in a tone that I find unacceptable, or in a manner or at a time that I don't appreciate.

Then I'm missing nothing since there is no relationship between us and I'm in no relationship with someone like you.

The rest of this post is unrelated to the post I quoted and is not directed at him.

As I said before, when I'm asked what I like, how I'd like it, etc. I'm expected to answer honestly. I never said that there's no communication between me and the Man/Men I'm involved with. I said I don't ask or hint or otherwise whine for certain attentions that I don't think I'm getting or that I want.

It feels wrong of me to ask, hint or whine and it's a sure bet if I did so, I wouldn't get it anyway. It not only feels wrong but it's not acceptable. For us it's topping, it's manipulative and it borders on passive/agressive.

In the end, I usually get what I want because I don't engage in that kind of behavior in the first place and He finds out what he wants to know without having to tolerate it. He asks, we talk, I answer. For us, it's the adult way to handle a D/s relationship.

I know there are others here who follow a strict and even stricter model of submission than I do. Honestly, I admire their selflessness and strength in it. And it's something I strive to attain with the Man/Men I'm involved with. I wish I could be as strong in my submission as Catalina and sinnocent are. Someday I hope I am.

Maybe all this and some of us are old, old fashioned, wrong and out-dated now. Maybe D/s has become mainstream and vanilla enough. Maybe it's become mostly about kink and little about anything else. Maybe we (I) no longer belong or are accepted. Maybe it's all become irrelevent to others. All I do know is that these kinds of opinions don't seem to fit well with many. And I'm a long way from extreme in my D/s practices.

Like Cutie said, my view is pretty black and white on this: in my D/s world the D is big and comes first. The D is the priority and sets the course of the relationship. It's just that simple and just that serious. And I guess, just that unacceptable and intolerable to a lot of people.

 

[the captians wench]

So horse dookie on everyone.

That covers two hard limits for me.

 

[doveofserenity]

Not "A List", "The List". The really good stuff is written down in a steno pad that sits on my nightstand beside the bed.

Uncle Hommy got a "THE LIST"?
~goes and sits in a corner, like a good lil angel~

 

[Netzach]

Then I'm missing nothing since there is no relationship between us and I'm in no relationship with someone like you.

The rest of this post is unrelated to the post I quoted and is not directed at him.

As I said before, when I'm asked what I like, how I'd like it, etc. I'm expected to answer honestly. I never said that there's no communication between me and the Man/Men I'm involved with. I said I don't ask or hint or otherwise whine for certain attentions that I don't think I'm getting or that I want.

It feels wrong of me to ask, hint or whine and it's a sure bet if I did so, I wouldn't get it anyway. It not only feels wrong but it's not acceptable. For us it's topping, it's manipulative and it borders on passive/agressive.

In the end, I usually get what I want because I don't engage in that kind of behavior in the first place and He finds out what he wants to know without having to tolerate it. He asks, we talk, I answer. For us, it's the adult way to handle a D/s relationship.

I know there are others here who follow a strict and even stricter model of submission than I do. Honestly, I admire their selflessness and strength in it. And it's something I strive to attain with the Man/Men I'm involved with. I wish I could be as strong in my submission as Catalina and sinnocent are. Someday I hope I am.

Maybe all this and some of us are old, old fashioned, wrong and out-dated now. Maybe D/s has become mainstream and vanilla enough. Maybe it's become mostly about kink and little about anything else. Maybe we (I) no longer belong or are accepted. Maybe it's all become irrelevent to others. All I do know is that these kinds of opinions don't seem to fit well with many. And I'm a long way from extreme in my D/s practices.

Like Cutie said, my view is pretty black and white on this: in my D/s world the D is big and comes first. The D is the priority and sets the course of the relationship. It's just that simple and just that serious. And I guess, just that unacceptable and intolerable to a lot of people.

I respect this. I know that IF H actually asks me for something it's pretty damn important and I'm overlooking it. It's very rare. If it were very frequent, I'd call that needy and be very "buh bye" about it.

 

[Homburg]

I respect this. I know that IF H actually asks me for something it's pretty damn important and I'm overlooking it. It's very rare. If it were very frequent, I'd call that needy and be very "buh bye" about it.

Not that I'm substantively involved in this dicussion, but I agree with this. I don't expect "v" to tell me all the stuff going on in her desires, but the big, important, hot button things, yeah. I do expect that it come out non-needy though.

Well, properly performed begging is hot...

 

[the captians wench]

Then I'm missing nothing since there is no relationship between us and I'm in no relationship with someone like you.

The rest of this post is unrelated to the post I quoted and is not directed at him.

As I said before, when I'm asked what I like, how I'd like it, etc. I'm expected to answer honestly. I never said that there's no communication between me and the Man/Men I'm involved with. I said I don't ask or hint or otherwise whine for certain attentions that I don't think I'm getting or that I want.

It feels wrong of me to ask, hint or whine and it's a sure bet if I did so, I wouldn't get it anyway. It not only feels wrong but it's not acceptable. For us it's topping, it's manipulative and it borders on passive/agressive.

In the end, I usually get what I want because I don't engage in that kind of behavior in the first place and He finds out what he wants to know without having to tolerate it. He asks, we talk, I answer. For us, it's the adult way to handle a D/s relationship.

I know there are others here who follow a strict and even stricter model of submission than I do. Honestly, I admire their selflessness and strength in it. And it's something I strive to attain with the Man/Men I'm involved with. I wish I could be as strong in my submission as Catalina and sinnocent are. Someday I hope I am.

Maybe all this and some of us are old, old fashioned, wrong and out-dated now. Maybe D/s has become mainstream and vanilla enough. Maybe it's become mostly about kink and little about anything else. Maybe we (I) no longer belong or are accepted. Maybe it's all become irrelevent to others. All I do know is that these kinds of opinions don't seem to fit well with many. And I'm a long way from extreme in my D/s practices.

Like Cutie said, my view is pretty black and white on this: in my D/s world the D is big and comes first. The D is the priority and sets the course of the relationship. It's just that simple and just that serious. And I guess, just that unacceptable and intolerable to a lot of people.

I find this post very interesting.

There was a time when I wouldn't speak of my wants or desires. I felt like what I wanted ment little, what mattered is what he wanted and that's all. If that ment that i would not recieve spankings, floggings, orgasms what ever unless he specifically told me that i was going to have it, well so be it.

But as I have delt with different dominate types, I have noticed that more often than not, they incourage me to speak out when I want a flogging, orgasm, or a fudge sundae. If I am a big girl and ask for what I would like insted of pouting, then my request is considered. If I pout, or whine and whimper, it is with held from me.

As much as i would like to put complete focas on my PYL(s) I find that we both get more enjoyment out of the relationship if I am upfront about my wants and needs. Does that mean that I will always get what I ask for, no and a lot of the time he will find pleasure in with holding from me what I have told him I desired. That's his choice, and I accept that.

In all I am glad that I have been given the freedom to ask for the things I want. And maybe that's the difference. I was told to ask for what I want, so to not do so would be disobeying his wishes. And most of the time he does know what I want, I think he just likes it to be confirmed.

 

[Netzach]

Not that I'm substantively involved in this dicussion, but I agree with this. I don't expect "v" to tell me all the stuff going on in her desires, but the big, important, hot button things, yeah. I do expect that it come out non-needy though.

Well, properly performed begging is hot...

I'm actually not that picky about how it comes out, because honestly IF it emerges it's going to be something he's stressing over and distressed about. He'd better be thinking about whether it's that big a deal for a while before making it an issue at all, and he's got to be touching base with the fact that he is there for my benefit and amusement. If the issue doesn't somehow get covered by that fact, I also expect him to deal with his *own* stuff - I am not there to solve his every emotional desire. But I'm also not romantically enmeshed with my slave, so it's a different story to a certain degree. I can see how that dynamic can still apply in a pair though.

 

[Homburg]

Maybe all this and some of us are old, old fashioned, wrong and out-dated now.

ADR, you aren't "old-fashioned". You're "retro". "Retro" is old-fashioned stuff that is still cool

Seriously though, you express yourself, and your points well. I like ADR brand posts, whether it's old-fashioned, retro, or whatever it is.

 

[Netzach]

I find this post very interesting.

There was a time when I wouldn't speak of my wants or desires. I felt like what I wanted ment little, what mattered is what he wanted and that's all. If that ment that i would not recieve spankings, floggings, orgasms what ever unless he specifically told me that i was going to have it, well so be it.

But as I have delt with different dominate types, I have noticed that more often than not, they incourage me to speak out when I want a flogging, orgasm, or a fudge sundae. If I am a big girl and ask for what I would like insted of pouting, then my request is considered. If I pout, or whine and whimper, it is with held from me.

As much as i would like to put complete focas on my PYL(s) I find that we both get more enjoyment out of the relationship if I am upfront about my wants and needs. Does that mean that I will always get what I ask for, no and a lot of the time he will find pleasure in with holding from me what I have told him I desired. That's his choice, and I accept that.

In all I am glad that I have been given the freedom to ask for the things I want. And maybe that's the difference. I was told to ask for what I want, so to not do so would be disobeying his wishes. And most of the time he does know what I want, I think he just likes it to be confirmed.

I'm with a D who loves to hear what I want. Loves making me ask for whatever is running through my mind. I think he grooves hugely on the option to say no and the option to say yes.

I don't function that way at all. I would be a horrid match for me.

 

[Netzach]

The kind of relationship I have with H, who lives out, does not get to fuck me, and hands me his money is positively antique then.

 

[Little_Kitten]

Then I'm missing nothing since there is no relationship between us and I'm in no relationship with someone like you.

The rest of this post is unrelated to the post I quoted and is not directed at him.

As I said before, when I'm asked what I like, how I'd like it, etc. I'm expected to answer honestly. I never said that there's no communication between me and the Man/Men I'm involved with. I said I don't ask or hint or otherwise whine for certain attentions that I don't think I'm getting or that I want.

It feels wrong of me to ask, hint or whine and it's a sure bet if I did so, I wouldn't get it anyway. It not only feels wrong but it's not acceptable. For us it's topping, it's manipulative and it borders on passive/agressive.

In the end, I usually get what I want because I don't engage in that kind of behavior in the first place and He finds out what he wants to know without having to tolerate it. He asks, we talk, I answer. For us, it's the adult way to handle a D/s relationship.

I know there are others here who follow a strict and even stricter model of submission than I do. Honestly, I admire their selflessness and strength in it. And it's something I strive to attain with the Man/Men I'm involved with. I wish I could be as strong in my submission as Catalina and sinnocent are. Someday I hope I am.

Maybe all this and some of us are old, old fashioned, wrong and out-dated now. Maybe D/s has become mainstream and vanilla enough. Maybe it's become mostly about kink and little about anything else. Maybe we (I) no longer belong or are accepted. Maybe it's all become irrelevent to others. All I do know is that these kinds of opinions don't seem to fit well with many. And I'm a long way from extreme in my D/s practices.

Like Cutie said, my view is pretty black and white on this: in my D/s world the D is big and comes first. The D is the priority and sets the course of the relationship. It's just that simple and just that serious. And I guess, just that unacceptable and intolerable to a lot of people.

Well this makes alot more sense to me. I'm glad you chose to explain a bit further.... Honestly, I feel the same way as you, in regards to the submissiveness. I strive to strengthen my submissiveness. But as I'm very new to BDSM stuff, and my partner too... We don't wanna throw ourselves on deeper water than we can manage.

I hope that some day, I'd get to the point where you are Or where Catalina is. But it's more difficult than i thought in the first place.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Then I'm missing nothing since there is no relationship between us and I'm in no relationship with someone like you.

The rest of this post is unrelated to the post I quoted and is not directed at him.

As I said before, when I'm asked what I like, how I'd like it, etc. I'm expected to answer honestly. I never said that there's no communication between me and the Man/Men I'm involved with. I said I don't ask or hint or otherwise whine for certain attentions that I don't think I'm getting or that I want.

It feels wrong of me to ask, hint or whine and it's a sure bet if I did so, I wouldn't get it anyway. It not only feels wrong but it's not acceptable. For us it's topping, it's manipulative and it borders on passive/agressive.

In the end, I usually get what I want because I don't engage in that kind of behavior in the first place and He finds out what he wants to know without having to tolerate it. He asks, we talk, I answer. For us, it's the adult way to handle a D/s relationship.

I know there are others here who follow a strict and even stricter model of submission than I do. Honestly, I admire their selflessness and strength in it. And it's something I strive to attain with the Man/Men I'm involved with. I wish I could be as strong in my submission as Catalina and sinnocent are. Someday I hope I am.

Maybe all this and some of us are old, old fashioned, wrong and out-dated now. Maybe D/s has become mainstream and vanilla enough. Maybe it's become mostly about kink and little about anything else. Maybe we (I) no longer belong or are accepted. Maybe it's all become irrelevent to others. All I do know is that these kinds of opinions don't seem to fit well with many. And I'm a long way from extreme in my D/s practices.

Like Cutie said, my view is pretty black and white on this: in my D/s world the D is big and comes first. The D is the priority and sets the course of the relationship. It's just that simple and just that serious. And I guess, just that unacceptable and intolerable to a lot of people.

I'm still pretty new around here so maybe thee is some past history on this board that I am missing but I haven't seen anybody really unaccepting or intolerable of the level of submission you are speaking of. As a matter of fact , to me, it seems the opposite.

If me respectfully asking my PYL for something, without nagging or whining or expecting my request to necessarily be granted is topping, then so be it.

I respect the relationships of everyone on here no matter what level of submission they practice.

Being less submissive does not make a person less of a submissive, and

Being more submissive does not make a person more of a submissive

Just my opinion

 

[Netzach]

I'm still pretty new around here so maybe thee is some past history on this board that I am missing but I haven't seen anybody really unaccepting or intolerable of the level of submission you are speaking of. As a matter of fact , to me, it seems the opposite.

If me respectfully asking my PYL for something, without nagging or whining or expecting my request to necessarily be granted is topping, then so be it.

I respect the relationships of everyone on here no matter what level of submission they practice.

Being less submissive does not make a person less of a submissive, and

Being more submissive does not make a person more of a submissive

Just my opinion

I kind of see what you mean, because in the end you are if you think you are...but part of me also jumps off the polite bus of relativism and says "maybe you just aren't a submissive at some point of non-submissiveness, no?"

I get it, but I can't reconcile a man asking "how could I get Mistress Netz to do more of the CBT I like on me?" with submission. Which is analagous to the OP, yes?

I mean at some point it's got to be about wanting to please your partner, being willing to let your partner's wishes override YOURS and deferring to them.

Not really having that in you doesn't make you any worse than anyone else. That's something I fail to get how "I'm not really a submissive" is a huge liability in this world, but I guess I wouldn't be the one to get that, being a fairly type B about the categorizations.

What bugs me is that the community is eager to lambaste any guy asking those questions, even if he's coming at it from "I'm a bottom to this great Sado, but I'd really like more attention paid to my nuts - how can I ask without offending her sensibilities?" How is that inherently evil?

 

[A Desert Rose]

I'm still pretty new around here so maybe thee is some past history on this board that I am missing but I haven't seen anybody really unaccepting or intolerable of the level of submission you are speaking of. As a matter of fact , to me, it seems the opposite.

If me respectfully asking my PYL for something, without nagging or whining or expecting my request to necessarily be granted is topping, then so be it.

I respect the relationships of everyone on here no matter what level of submission they practice.

Being less submissive does not make a person less of a submissive, and

Being more submissive does not make a person more of a submissive

Just my opinion

In your relationship, if asking is how it's done, then fine. I don't think there's anything in my posts that say "this is the only right way it's done." I've always qualified my statements with the PC phrases "in my relationships", "in MY opinion", etc. And still people see them as all or nothing kind of posts. They are all or nothing to me... but to ME only.

I don't know why the less than or more than has to keep coming up. It's not on me to define someone else's submission or Dominance. All I've tried to do is define my own and that seems to cause me more problems and make me more disliked on this board.

 

[JMohegan]

Then I'm missing nothing since there is no relationship between us and I'm in no relationship with someone like you.

The rest of this post is unrelated to the post I quoted and is not directed at him.

Please click me. ADR, that's the post to which I was responding.

Please note that you didn't quote a post. You asked a general question.

I assumed that your question was a sincere request for information from those with a different perspective. I gave mine.

Still operating under the assumption that your question was sincere, I will explain my position further as follows.

Like Cutie said, my view is pretty black and white on this: in my D/s world the D is big and comes first. The D is the priority and sets the course of the relationship. It's just that simple and just that serious. And I guess, just that unacceptable and intolerable to a lot of people.

In my relationships, the D is the priority and sets the course of the relationship too.

But getting back to your earlier statement about communication. "I don't ask for anything and I don't tell what I want... UNLESS I'm asked to express it." The difference in my flavor of D/s goes something like this.

Suppose we are having a conversation over dinner, and she says something like: "I just read this book, and found it very meaningful because of X, Y, and Z. If you have a chance, I'd really love it if you would read it sometime so we can talk about it together." I may, or may not, read it. That's up to me.

In contrast, if I say to her: "I just read this book, and would like you to read it so we can talk about it together," then that would be something she is expected to do.

Language nearly identical, expectations very different.

I understand that there are more formal or strict D/s arrangements. If that works for you, no problem. I would not describe your style as "unacceptable and intolerable." Just something that does not interest me.

 

[Homburg]

I'm with a D who loves to hear what I want. Loves making me ask for whatever is running through my mind. I think he grooves hugely on the option to say no and the option to say yes.

This is something I grok. I dig on that ability. I enjoy it. I want her to be an active party in this dynamic, even if it is only being an active puppet to my whims. The bottom line is that it makes her uncomfortable, embarrassed, and humiliated to ask (generally speaking), and that gets me all kinds of excited. Add in the regal decision on yay or nay, and I am a happy bastard.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I kind of see what you mean, because in the end you are if you think you are...but part of me also jumps off the polite bus of relativism and says "maybe you just aren't a submissive at some point of non-submissiveness, no?"

I get it, but I can't reconcile a man asking "how could I get Mistress Netz to do more of the CBT I like on me?" with submission. Which is analagous to the OP, yes?

I mean at some point it's got to be about wanting to please your partner, being willing to let your partner's wishes override YOURS and deferring to them.

Not really having that in you doesn't make you any worse than anyone else. That's something I fail to get how "I'm not really a submissive" is a huge liability in this world, but I guess I wouldn't be the one to get that, being a fairly type B about the categorizations.

What bugs me is that the community is eager to lambaste any guy asking those questions, even if he's coming at it from "I'm a bottom to this great Sado, but I'd really like more attention paid to my nuts - how can I ask without offending her sensibilities?" How is that inherently evil?

Hmmm..Ok, let me give an example. (just an example, not real) I am in a 3-4 yr long D/s relationship. Everything is going smoothly but I read somethig about say..ropework that my PYL has never done. It is somethig that really intrigues me. If I respectfully bring up the subject and say that I would be interested in trying it..Does that make me no longer a submissive? or topping?

I would really like to know.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I kind of see what you mean, because in the end you are if you think you are...but part of me also jumps off the polite bus of relativism and says "maybe you just aren't a submissive at some point of non-submissiveness, no?"

I get it, but I can't reconcile a man asking "how could I get Mistress Netz to do more of the CBT I like on me?" with submission. Which is analagous to the OP, yes?

I mean at some point it's got to be about wanting to please your partner, being willing to let your partner's wishes override YOURS and deferring to them.

I had a great thought about this and now I've lost it.

When it comes back, I'll edit it into this post.