God is dead. There is no point to this, not really.

[fgarvb1]

What is faith.??

Action baised upon belief substaned by confidence.?

A belief in things unseen.?

A belief and trust in loyalty to God.?

It is not "I feel it in my heart."

 

[Unclebill]

Unclebill, I have a little problem with the way you said that God's will allows people to abdicate responsibility. (It's just a little problem.)

Sometimes, even when a person has every last duck in a row, a meteorite will fall out of the sky and whack a duck. Is it the person's fault? No. The duck's? Hell, no. The responsibility might lie with the meteorite, which would probably say, if it could talk, "Hey -- I didn't choose my course. I fell here."

In short, there is no possible way to assign responsibility.

There are cases, in short, where a person need not assume responsibility, because there is none to be assigned. This holds true for illness, earthquakes, tidal waves, and duck-flattening meteorites.

Since a lot of people have trouble with the concept that shit just happens, it is easier for them to say it is God's will. It isn't particularly comforting, and it doesn't fit everyone's idea of what is true, but it eases the pain of losing a duck to random chance. It isn't abdicating responsibility at all.

For your example of the duck, I put that in the category of coincidence, accident, happenstance, or in your apt parlance of "shit happens".

And the fault certainly doesn't lie with the meteorite; it did not make any conscious decision since it does not have a consciousness, i. e., it has no cognitive ability since it is not a living entity.

I agree that not everything that happens to people is the result of their choices and decisions. While a person may choose to put themselves in an environment where they are exposed to a deadly infection or disease, the exposure was not the choice, merely a coincidental happening.

But to invest in a business that promises to double your money in a year with no risk and then say it was god's will that you lose your money is the scenario of which I speak.

And, there are people (in my estimation, a minority) who use God's will as a means of explaining their stupidity, failures and shortcomings. God makes a very convenient scapegoat because he's never to my knowledge contested the declaration. And it certainly is better than saying it was bad judgement, poor choice or stupid actions taken by the individual to explain their failures, etc. Ever hear the explanation, "The devil made me/him/her do it"?

 

[Thumper]

Duck season...No, Rabbit season!

There are cases, in short, where a person need not assume responsibility, because there is none to be assigned. This holds true for illness, earthquakes, tidal waves, and duck-flattening meteorites.

Since a lot of people have trouble with the concept that shit just happens, it is easier for them to say it is God's will. It isn't particularly comforting, and it doesn't fit everyone's idea of what is true, but it eases the pain of losing a duck to random chance. It isn't abdicating responsibility at all.

Lord love a duck.

 

[Skibum]

I'm starting to feel like a duck myself.

 

[CreamyLady]

Thanks for the clarification, Unclebill. As I said, it was a small problem.

Thumper -- WABBIT season.

Skibum -- Quack. Quack. Quack.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

If you accept the creation as described in Genesis as being "periods of time" instead of literal "days," it sets out the sequence of events in pretty much the same order as proponents of the Big Bang and Evolution do.

Um, no, it doesn't.

That, my friend, is the best case of looking for the silver lining I've ever heard of.

 

[Jeff726]

I used to belong to the Assemblies of God. Then the youth pastor started teaching children that it's not only all right but desirable in God's eyes to call down His wrath on the children at school who picked on them for being Christian. I pointed out that this was ridiculous and got warned if I didn't fall into line I'd 'be sorry'.

Then, when I refused to convert my friends because I happened to respect their right to their own beliefs, the youth pastor took me aside and said if I didn't convert my best friend, he would have no choice but to call down the wrath of God on me. All those younger kids who had become like siblings to me were told that I was possessed by demons and that they should revile me. I was no longer welcome to youth group or the main service. When I got a nasty gash on my hand that needed stitches, they told me it served me right because I had gone against their will. Not God's will but their will.

... I just lost faith in the Assemblies of God.

That's not entirely true. I went through a period of being angry at God. I lost my faith. I thought I'd show Him. I'm not trying to belittle your disillusionment, KM. It felt awful. It was the worst thing that happened in my life. The Assemblies of God really know how to do a number on you.

The way I regained my faith is personal. It's a story I prefer not to broadcast on the board. If you're dying to know, email me. Otherwise, let's just say some stuff happened, and then I realized that the Church and God are not the same. Never have been, never will be.

Seriously, KM - believe what you want obviously, but isn't it at least somewhat obvious that this Church is a robber's den? Now that I'm free of them, I think the Assemblies are a joke; a big, rotten, unfunny, fucked up excuse for a joke. If there is a God, I imagine He's not laughing either.

I'm not going to pray that you return to the fold. That fold is a nasty place that tortures its sheep. Instead, I'm going to have faith that you're an intelligent woman who knows what she needs, and it's none of my damned business to lecture one way or another. Take care.

I have to side with you on this, Naudiz.

I was baptized by my Youth Leader in May 1993. Then and there I figured I was saved. But then I have been throughout the years told "getting baptized isn't getting saved" this, and "you have to pray for forgiveness" that. It all made me wonder what the hell I had to do in the first place to even realize eternal life.

My life became somewhat discontentful in the following years, including a near expulsion from school. I figured I would be stuck for a time in a less than happy life even if I had a loving faily and alot of friends. I had no money and nothing to ever really do, but the only thing that kept me going was that people cared for me just as I was. I even stopped attending Church for a while.

What really renewed my faith was a strange sense of calm I felt in the short time after my father passed away. Sure I cried some and still do occasionally. But overall, I just felt like everything would be alright. I felt like something came down and gave me a hug and said life will be ok don't worry.

In October at one evening church service, I just felt a need to go up and say "Hey God here I am I can do no other. Thank you for keeping me throughout this hard time. Please accept me just as I am." I didn't do that because the pastor said so or because I thought it would score me brownie points with the members of the congregation, but because I felt the want in my heart to go up there.

I have no idea why I attend church really, but I do know whether or not I do go, I have my own personal relationship with God. The last reason anyone should go is to impress others, and that's what I feel like I have been doing.

If you find God somehow, do it for yourself and you felt it in your heart, not because you just happened to wander in one day and hear the pastor say you will go to hell for this or this or this. Like me, it was a deep feeling inside and not what someone preached to know my relationship with God.

Pretty much what I say is do what works for YOU and respect the rights of others to believe what they want to believe. Don't let others sway your thoughts.

Like my best friend said, I worry too much about what other people think and need to worry about myself and make myself happy. Make your own happiness he told me. I agree.

I will not let DCL, Unclebill, or any other atheist sway my thoughts nor will I try to sway them. If we all learned some respect for eachother, this place would be alot better. And I respect people just as they are.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

double post


[Edited by Dixon Carter Lee on 01-08-2001 at 12:47 PM]

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I will not let DCL, Unclebill, or any other atheist sway my thoughts nor will I try to sway them. If we all learned some respect for eachother, this place would be alot better. And I respect people just as they are.

Jeff, who's trying to sway you? I have said over and over and over again (on the BB, and to you, in fact, many times), that faith has no business being measured by science and there's no point in trying to make anyone "switch sides".

A common knee-jerk reaction amongst the faithful to atheists is that somehow my convictions are an attempt to deny you yours. I find that awfully conceited, as if my beliefs only exist in terms of how they affect you. And so my posts become all about "swaying".

We've had this argument before, about trying to define atheism only in terms of the point of view of the faithful, as if they represented the "right" and we represent the "wrong", and need to be guarded against lest oo scary the things we say "sway" you.

Don't worry Jeff, that isn't me sneaking out of your closet at midnight and reading from "On the Origin of Species" while you sleep.

Sorry, I'm not really mad. It just irks me when my deeply held beliefs are givent he connotation of "propoganda".

And I'm sure I've been insulting, too, with my smart-ass asides about God. But I try to keep them smart-ass, and not take them seriously. I don't make statements about how "this list of people and their wacky views won't SWAY me!"

As for the rest of your post, I'm glad you've come to calm terms regarding your father's unfortunate passing, and I'm happy that your faith is a comfort to you.

 

[Havocman]

But Dixon...what happened to your nightly readings from the works of Darwin?

Havoc

 

[Jeff726]

All I am saying Dixon is to be your own person. Make your own beliefs, and not to let anyone change your mind. Personally, it doesn't bother me too much whether one is atheist, christian, islamic, or what have you so long as they respect my wishes. And that you do. Here want a cookie now? lol

 

[Dillinger]

Every man and every woman is a star.

Practically all religions, despite whatever good intentions they may have started out with, suffer from essentially the same problem. They have taken what may have been good ideas and concepts and raised them to the level of meaningless dogma. They attempt (often successfully) to get their followers to stop thinking for themselves and just accept whatever they're told, however outrageous or ridiculous it may be. The fact is they pretty much all started out with someone thinking for themselves. Monty Python's Life of Brian parodies this brilliantly.

Any type of fundamentalism (religious or otherwise) is evil and to be avoided at all costs. (

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

All I am saying Dixon is to be your own person.

And all I'm saying is don't define an atheist's beliefs in terms of how they affect the devout.

Here want a cookie now? lol

Make it chocolate chip.

 

[Gaucho]

Probably not, and depending on just how much Rolling Rock He's consumed, tomorrow morning is going to be a bitch.

CL, shouldn't God be able to come up with something a little better than Rolling Rock, for crying out loud?

 

[Gaucho]

Angel makes a valid point. Bad things don't happen because it is God's will, or to test you, or because you've been bad.

Bad things just happen. Excrement occurs.

The best explanation of religious philosophies I've ever seen (If this has been posted before, I apologize. I missed it)

Religious Philosophies

Atheism: No Shit!
Buddhism: When Shit happens, is it really Shit?
Catholicism: If Shit happens, I deserve it.
Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit Happens."
Hinduism: This Shit Happened Before.
Islam: If Shit happens, take a hostage.
Jehovah's Witness: Knock, Knock, "Shit Happens."
Judaism: Why does this Shit always happen?
Mormon: Shit happens again and again.
New Age: The age of Shit happening.
Paganism: It is natural that Shit happens.
Protestantism: Shit won't happen if I work harder.
Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this Shit.
7th Day Adventism: Shit happens on Saturdays.
Taoism: Shit happens.
Zen: What is the sound of Shit happening?

 

[Dillinger]

A lot of people say to me, "Why did you kill Christ?" "I dunno... it was one of those parties, got out of hand, you know." "We killed him because he didn't want to become a doctor, that's why we killed him." - Lenny Bruce

 

[Dillinger]

Lazarus

History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not
strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend considerable time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it. -- Lazarus (Robert Heinlein)

 

[Dillinger]

Tom Robbins

Religion is an improper response to the Divine. Religion is an attempt to pin down the Divine. The Divine is eternally in flux, forever moving, shifting shape. That is its nature. It is absolute, true enough; absolutely mobile. Absolutely transcendent. Absolutely flexible. Absolutely impersonal. It has its god and goddess aspects, but it is ultimately no more male or female than it is star or screwdriver. It is the sum of all those things, but that sum can never be chalked on a slate. The Divine is beyond description, beyond knowing, beyond comprehension. To say that the Divine is Creation divided by Destruction is as close as one can come to definition. But the puny of soul, the dull of wit, aren't content with that. They want to hang a face on the Divine. They go so far as to attribute petty human emotions (anger, jealousy, etc.) to it, not stopping to realize that if God is a being, even a supreme being, our prayers would have bored him to death long ago.

The Divine is expansive but religion is reductive. Religion attempts to reduce the Divine to a knowable quantity with which mortals might efficiently deal, to pigeonhole it once and for all so that we never have to reevaluate it. With hammers of can't and spikes of dogma, we crucify and crucify again, trying to nail to our stationary altars the migratory light of the world.

Thus, since religion bares false witness to the Divine, religion is blasphemy. And once it entered into its unholy alliance with politics, it became the most dangerous and repressive force that the world has ever known. -- Tom Robbins

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

But people, but, but, but........

Was God, ever, ever - "alive?"

C'mon now. Ever alive?

I don't think so.

He - she - it...... is a concept.

A cool one. A good one for lots of folks. But never alive.

Only a concept.

 

[Havocman]

Re: But people, but, but, but........

Was God, ever, ever - "alive?"

C'mon now. Ever alive?

I don't think so.

He - she - it...... is a concept.

A cool one. A good one for lots of folks. But never alive.

Only a concept.

Hey Sparky, He will be alive in less than a year...that is if you believe those folks over at the Clone Jesus project...LOL

Havoc

 

[Jeff726]

And all I'm saying is don't define an atheist's beliefs in terms of how they affect the devout.

I never did, genius. And I am by no means devout. Here's your cookie. One of them nice big ones from Subway.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Thanks for the "genius", but, yeah, you kinda did. No bigee. And thanks for the cookie.

By the way, you're showing true grace and wit in responding to opposing posts.

 

[Thumper]

Proof!

That atheism is evil!!!

Chocolate chips are evil! The bible says so..somewhere..

Only those who eat oatmeal raisin cookies are worthy of God's grace and eternal blessings!

Repent all ye who cavort with the "Chips Ahoy" demons...

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Actually the word "chip" was mistranslated by the Greeks from the original Sanskrit "chiop" which did not refer to chocolate at all, but a sort of dried date.

Oh, and it didn't rain for "forty days and forty nights". It "rained on Tuesday so the camel races were postponed a fortnight."

Lotta' tiny mistakes likes that.

 

[CelestialBody]

Re: Tom Robbins