God Rigs Election: It's Bush In A "blowout"

[shereads]

Cool indeed! That definitely trumps my new hybrid gas-electric car.

Whoa! Ken. The man I'm looking for. Please go directly to my badly-named new thread, "How stupid is it to...?"

I need advice on hybrid cars.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I found some extra info on the H2 Bus program, but not much, yet. This is in the European Comission site:

The CUTE project

The European Commission is allocating €18.5 million to the CUTE (Clean Urban Transport for Europe) demonstration project to support 9 European cities in introducing hydrogen into their public transport system : Amsterdam (Netherlands), Barcelona (Spain), Hamburg (Germany), London (United Kingdom), Luxembourg, Madrid (Spain), Porto (Portugal), Stockholm (Sweden) and Stuttgart (Germany).

These cities want to demonstrate that hydrogen is an efficient and environmentally friendly power source for the future of their cities. Twenty seven fuel-cell powered buses, running on locally produced and refilled hydrogen, should prove that zero emission public transport is possible today when ambitious political will and innovative technology are combined.

Traffic congestion is growing rapidly in Europe. Air quality in cities is a major concern of citizens. Greenhouse gas emissions from transport are growing at an alarming speed. Noise is a growing source of complaints. The 9 European cities are convinced that the combination of a hydrogen and fuel-cell bus in a quality public transport system will lead towards the most sustainable urban transport system and address all these important problems simultaneously.

This hydrogen/fuel cell bus project will be the first project world-wide which addresses at the same time the production of hydrogen, the hydrogen refilling in city centres and the operational use in commercial public transport systems. These buses will be operated like conventional buses, on the same lines and under the same tight time schedule for best comparative assessment of performance and costs.


Elsewhere, I also found this:

Developing a role for hydrogen and fuel cells in public transport is probably one of the most ambitious actions in energy and transport today. This project, which is currently the world's largest in fuel cell technology, enjoys Community financial support because not only it is technologically innovative, but also it complements the Commission's current actions on alternative fuels. It demonstrates the feasibility of zero emission public transport, where the fuel -- hydrogen -- is produced from different energy sources. The cities involved in the project are Madrid, London, Porto, Luxembourg, Hamburg, Barcelona, Stuttgart, Stockholm and Amsterdam, in a consortium with Daimler-Chrysler.

CUTE will demonstrate that it is possible to set up an emission-free and low-noise transport system,including the accompanying alternative fuels infrastructure. This has great potential for reducing the global greenhouse effect according to the Kyoto protocol, improving the quality of the atmosphere and life in densely populated areas and conserving fossil resources. For this purpose the application of the innovative hydrogen-based fuel cell technology is to be established by using fuel cell powered buses in an urban environment together with novel hydrogen production and support systems as part of a European Union wide demonstration scheme.

The major objectives of the CUTE project are as follows:

- Demonstration of 27 fuel cell powered regular service buses over a period of two years in nine European inner city areas to illustrate the large spectrum of different operating conditions to be found in Europe.

- Design, construction and operation of the necessary infrastructure for hydrogen production and refuelling stations.

- Collection of findings concerning safety, standardisation and operating behaviour of production for mobile and stationary use, and exchange of experiences including bus operation under differing conditions among the numerous participating companies for replication.

- Ecological, technical and economical analysis of the entire life cycle and comparison with conventional alternatives. Quantification of the abatement of CO2 at European level and contribution to commitments of Kyoto.

 

[KenJames]

Whoa! Ken. The man I'm looking for. Please go directly to my badly-named new thread, "How stupid is it to...?"

I need advice on hybrid cars.

Okay, I answered on "How stupid . . . "

Does a cool new hybrid car help you get girls? If so, would you like to move to Austin?

 

[shereads]

I can never return to Texas, Ken. Not even the nice parts.

Bad experience there called "going through with the marriage ceremony even though you're standing there listening to the justice of the peace and thinking, 'This is going to be so hard to get out of.'"

Too many bad and good memories in Texas.

I also can't use products of my former clients.

It's a weakness of mine, that when something ends badly I try to avoid any association with it. Including entire states.

But thank you for answering, and I love your car.

 

[shereads]

I found some extra info on the H2 Bus program, but not much, yet. This is in the European Comission site:

The CUTE project

I adore the name, but I'm afraid the name would be a deal-breaker for our President even if he wanted to save the environment. He's a tough man, you see. A truck-drivin' man with a ranch. Call it "project MATRIX" or "DEATHSTAR" and I think we've got some hope of picking up on it over here.

First, we'll have to find a way to disassociate the project from the Coalition of the Unwilling. We've forgiven Canada, but only because we need a place to bury our diseased cattle.



Maybe EPCOT will buy one. They can put the Monsanto logo on the side and ride people around the World of the Future.

 

[KenJames]

I can never return to Texas, Ken. Not even the nice parts.

Bad experience there called "going through with the marriage ceremony even though you're standing there listening to the justice of the peace and thinking, 'This is going to be so hard to get out of.'"

Too many bad and good memories in Texas.

I also can't use products of my former clients.

It's a weakness of mine, that when something ends badly I try to avoid any association with it. Including entire states.

But thank you for answering, and I love your car.

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience with Texas, but I understand.

 

[KenJames]

I adore the name, but I'm afraid the name would be a deal-breaker for our President even if he wanted to save the environment. He's a tough man, you see. A truck-drivin' man with a ranch. Call it "project MATRIX" or "DEATHSTAR" and I think we've got some hope of picking up on it over here.

First, we'll have to find a way to disassociate the project from the Coalition of the Unwilling. We've forgiven Canada, but only because we need a place to bury our diseased cattle.



Maybe EPCOT will buy one. They can put the Monsanto logo on the side and ride people around the World of the Future.

Hydrogen is essentially a pollution-free technology, so I really like the concept

Still, I have some doubts about the wide-spread adoption of hydrogen vehicles.

1. Bush is pushing the technology, although I'm not sure how serious he is.

2. It will be a long time before the infrastructure has developed to the point where you can refuel your hydrogen vehicle in Poison Spider, Wyoming or Fried Toad, New Mexico.

3. Hydrogen is much more explosive than gasoline. What's going to happen to a hydrogen vehicle in a crash? Will the hydrogen dissipate instantly and harmlessly, as some contend, or explode, incinerating the vehicle and its occupants?

Then there are the marketing issues. A humming electric motor probably won't thrill a tough guy like a roaring V-8.

The hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is new and fairly radical. It's an electric car with a fuel cell rather than batteries. However, internal combustion engines can be adapted to run on hydrogen, just like they can be adapted for propane. That technology has existed since the 1960s and must be what the hydrogen bus is using. A fuel cell wouldn't produce the water vapor exhaust.

A hydrogen internal combustion engine might be able to run on H2 or gasoline, like a propane-modified engine, reducing the infrastructure issues.

Incidentally, Toyota has already announced plans to use they hybrid technology in other vehicles. The next one will be a sport utility vehicle. Can pickups be far behind?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

1. Bush is pushing the technology, although I'm not sure how serious he is.

2. It will be a long time before the infrastructure has developed to the point where you can refuel your hydrogen vehicle in Poison Spider, Wyoming or Fried Toad, New Mexico.

3. Hydrogen is much more explosive than gasoline. What's going to happen to a hydrogen vehicle in a crash? Will the hydrogen dissipate instantly and harmlessly, as some contend, or explode, incinerating the vehicle and its occupants?

That's what the CUTE project is trying to do. To demonstrate that doubt #2 isn't such an important obstacle and to that #3 doesn't exist. If that possibility were real, however remote, do you think they would put 27 buses in the centre of some of the biggest, most populated cities in Europe?

If this project is a success, it will be proven that the only real reason for scepticism is #1.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

That's what the CUTE project is trying to do. To demonstrate that doubt #2 isn't such an important obstacle and to that #3 doesn't exist. If that possibility were real, however remote, do you think they would put 27 buses in the centre of some of the biggest, most populated cities in Europe?

If this project is a success, it will be proven that the only real reason for scepticism is #1.

You forgot reason #4

The big oil companies stand to loose money. that will keep hydrogen fuel cells out of the U.S. for aslong as the lobbying money holds out.

-Colly

 

[minsue]

You forgot reason #4

The big oil companies stand to loose money. that will keep hydrogen fuel cells out of the U.S. for aslong as the lobbying money holds out.

-Colly

Read on, Colly...

Quoted from Mother Jones May/June 2003. Link at end of article.

Hydrogen's Dirty Secret

When President Bush unveiled his plans for a hydrogen-powered car in his State of the Union address in January, he proposed $1.2 billion in spending to develop a revolutionary automobile that will be "pollution-free." The new vehicle, he declared, will rely on "a simple chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen" to power a car "producing only water, not exhaust fumes." Within 20 years, the president vowed, fuel-cell cars will "make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of oil."

By launching an ambitious program to develop what he calls the "Freedom Car," Bush seemed determined to realize the kind of future that hydrogen-car supporters have envisioned for years. Using existing technology, hydrogen can be easily and cleanly extracted from water. Electricity generated by solar panels and wind turbines is used to split the water's hydrogen atoms from its oxygen atoms. The hydrogen is then recombined with oxygen in fuel cells, where it releases electrons that drive an electric motor in a car. What Bush didn't reveal in his nationwide address, however, is that his administration has been working quietly to ensure that the system used to produce hydrogen will be as fossil fuel-dependent -- and potentially as dirty -- as the one that fuels today's SUVs. According to the administration's National Hydrogen Energy Roadmap, drafted last year in concert with the energy industry, up to 90 percent of all hydrogen will be refined from oil, natural gas, and other fossil fuels -- in a process using energy generated by burning oil, coal, and natural gas. The remaining 10 percent will be cracked from water using nuclear energy.

Such a system, experts say, would effectively eliminate most of the benefits offered by hydrogen. Although the fuel-cell cars themselves may emit nothing but water vapor, the process of producing the fuel cells from hydrocarbons will continue America's dependence on fossil fuels and leave behind carbon dioxide, the primary cause of global warming.

Mike Nicklas, chair of the American Solar Energy Society, was one of 224 energy experts invited by the Department of Energy to develop the government's Roadmap last spring. The sessions, environmentalists quickly discovered, were dominated by representatives from the oil, coal, and nuclear industries. "All the emphasis was on how the process would benefit traditional energy industries," recalls Nicklas, who sat on a committee chaired by an executive from ChevronTexaco. "The whole meeting had been staged to get a particular result, which was a plan to extract hydrogen from fossil fuels and not from renewables." The plan does not call for a single ounce of hydrogen to come from power generated by the sun or the wind, concluding that such technologies "need further development for hydrogen production to be more cost competitive."

But instead of investing in developing those sources, the budget that Bush submitted to Congress pays scant attention to renewable methods of producing hydrogen. More than half of all hydrogen funding is earmarked for automakers and the energy industry. Under the president's plan, more than $22 million of hydrogen research for 2004 will be devoted to coal, nuclear power, and natural gas, compared with $17 million for renewable sources. Overall funding for renewable research and energy conservation, meanwhile, will be slashed by more than $86 million. "Cutting R&D for renewable sources and replacing them with fossil and nuclear doesn't make for a sustainable approach," says Jason Mark, director of the clean vehicles program for the Union of Concerned Scientists.

The oil and chemical industries already produce 9 million tons of hydrogen each year, most of it from natural gas, and transport it through hundreds of miles of pipelines to fuel the space shuttle and to remove sulfur from petroleum refineries. The administration's plan lays the groundwork to expand that infrastructure -- guaranteeing that oil and gas companies will profit from any transition to hydrogen. Lauren Segal, general manager of hydrogen development for BP, puts it succinctly: "We view hydrogen as a way to really grow our natural-gas business."

To protect its fuel franchise, the energy industry has moved swiftly in recent years to shape government policy toward hydrogen. In 1999, oil companies and automakers began attending the meetings of an obscure group called the National Hydrogen Association. Founded in 1989 by scientists from government labs and universities, the association was a haven for many of the small companies -- fuel-cell designers, electrolyzer makers -- that were dabbling in hydrogen power. The group promoted the use of hydrogen but was careful not to take any position on who would make the fuel or how.

All that changed once the energy industry got involved. "All of a sudden Shell joined our board, and then the interest grew very quickly," says Karen Miller, the association's vice president. "Our chair last year was from BP; this year our chair is from ChevronTexaco." The companies quickly began to use the association as a platform to lobby for more federal funding for research, and to push the government to emphasize fossil fuels in the national energy plan for hydrogen. Along with the big automakers, energy companies also formed a consortium called the International Hydrogen Infrastructure Group to monitor federal officials charged with developing fuel cells. "Basically," says Neil Rossmeissl, a hydrogen standards expert at the Department of Energy, "what they do is look over our shoulder at doe to make sure we are doing what they think is the right thing."

As hydrogen gained momentum, the oil companies rushed to buy up interests in technology companies developing ways to refine and store the new fuel. Texaco has invested $82 million in a firm called Energy Conversion Devices, and Shell now owns half of Hydrogen Source. BP, Chevron-Texaco, ExxonMobil, Ford, and General Electric have also locked up the services of many of America's top energy scientists, devoting more than $270 million to hydrogen research at MIT, Princeton, and Stanford.

Such funding will help ensure that oil and gas producers continue to profit even if automakers manage to put millions of fuel-cell cars on the road. "The major energy companies have several hundred billions of dollars, at the least, invested in their businesses, and there is a real interest in keeping and utilizing that infrastructure in the future," says Frank Ingriselli, former president of Texaco Technology Ventures. "And these companies certainly have the balance sheets and wherewithal to make it happen."

The stakes in the current battle over hydrogen are high. Devoting the bulk of federal research funding to making hydrogen from fossil fuels rather than water will enable oil and gas companies to provide lower-priced hydrogen. That, in turn, means that pipelines built to transport hydrogen will stretch to, say, a BP gas field in Canada, rather than an independent wind farm in North Dakota. Even if the rest of the world switches to hydrogen manufactured from water, says Nicklas, "Americans may end up dependent on fossil fuels for generations."

The administration's plans to manufacture hydrogen from fossil fuels could also contribute to global warming by leaving behind carbon dioxide. Oil and coal companies insist they will be able to "sequester" the carbon permanently by pumping it deep into the ocean or underground. But the doe calls such approaches "very high risk," and no one knows how much that would cost, how much other environmental disruption that might cause, or whether that would actually work. "Which path we take will have a huge effect one way or the other on the total amount of carbon pumped into the atmosphere over the next century," says James MacKenzie, a physicist with the World Resources Institute.

Even if industry manages to safely contain the carbon left behind, the Bush administration's plan to extract hydrogen from fossil fuels will wind up wasting energy. John Heywood, director of MIT's Sloan Automotive Lab, says a system that extracts hydrogen from oil and natural gas and stores it in fuel cells would actually be no more energy efficient than America's present gasoline- based system.

"If the hydrogen does not come from renewable sources," Heywood says, "then it is simply not worth doing, environmentally or economically."
Hydrogen's Dirty Secret

Ick, I needed to take a shower after reading it this summer & I need to go take a shower after reading it now.

- Mindy

 

[Colleen Thomas]

You have to give the devil his due. When fighting it became to expensive they just subverted it. Who says oil execs don't earn their money

-Colly

 

[shereads]

A humming electric motor probably won't thrill a tough guy like a roaring V-8...

Toyota has already announced plans to use they hybrid technology in other vehicles. The next one will be a sport utility vehicle. Can pickups be far behind? [/

Grinning, trying to picture the marketing drone who gets stuck doing focus groups to determine if there's demand for a hybrid Harley-Davidson.

KenJames, thank you for the info about the Toyota plan for a hybrid suv. As I posted last night at "How stupid....?" I would love for my next car after 14 years to be the opposite of my tiny, low-to-the-ground, invisible-from-truck-cabs Honda. But I can neither afford a gas-guzzling SUV nor justify the waste of owning an off-road vehicle when I live in a flat state. Even if I dream of moving to Montana, it's likely to be many fillups from now.

Coral Gables, right next door, does have the highest per capita ownership of luxury SUVs; they come in handy after a major hurricane ever ten or twenty years, for driving over treee limbs, but I don't think that's why SUVs are so popular in Coral Gables. The City Anal-Retentive, which is rabidly protective of property values and has lots of ordinances both useful and silly to keep people from trashing up the neighborhood, still has a ban on pickup trucks parked overnight unless they're in an enclosed garage. The ban is left over from a time before truckis were stylish for men who don't own farms, but ordinances don't go away in Coral Gables. So the testosterone-driven who simply must have a manly vehicle in the driveway have been buying un-banned Range Rovers and Hummers and that Ford thing that's the size of a house...

But I digress...



I would love to own a mini-SUV like the RAV4, but the only hybrid I had heard about until now was one from Ford. I haven't trusted Ford since the car dealer got me stoned on the test drive and I ended up with the Green Goddamn (Mercury Monarch).

Maybe I should wait to see what Toyota is going to do, and if Honda will follow suit. But I want the Prius, and I want it now! And it's your fault, because you told me there's a long waiting list.

Argghhh! Denied gratification! Not good for a baby boomer.

 

[KenJames]

That's what the CUTE project is trying to do. To demonstrate that doubt #2 isn't such an important obstacle and to that #3 doesn't exist. If that possibility were real, however remote, do you think they would put 27 buses in the centre of some of the biggest, most populated cities in Europe?

If this project is a success, it will be proven that the only real reason for scepticism is #1.

I really hope the CUTE project shows my skepticism is unjustified. Hydrogen is a very appealing technology.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I still need to find some info about those local hydrogen production facilities.

 

[Guest]

The Republican Dictionary by Owen Goodyear

Abortion n. - Killing prematurely, viz., without giving the target a chance to acquire nukes.

Axis of Evil n. abs. - Shopping list.

Cloning n. - The process from which religion claims relevance and by which new presidents are made.

Death Penalty, the n. v.pl. - Practice.

Economics n. pl. - Tax cuts.

Elucidation n. abs. - Repeating oneself at half speed.

Foreign Policy n. abs. - Increasing the military budget.

Freedom Int. - A meaningless interjection. Cf. "Oh!", "Gee golly gosh!"

Gun Control n. abs. - See "terrorism".

Homeland Security n. abs.
1. Guidelines for avoiding giving away state secrets through careless talk, e.g. meaningless interjections.
2. Decentralising power and reenfrancising the populace by transferring power from government officals to the people, e.g. by shifting the responsibility for the continued safety of 280 million people from the Secretary of State to squadrons of sleep-deprived airport check-in staff.

Isolationism n. abs. -Forgetting to increase the military budget.

Oil n. - "It", gentlemen, "it".

Press Conference n. - Fleischer-induced medianeurysm.

Rebuilding n. pl. - Immediate departure. Cf. "I will return."

Rogue Nation n. - Suspicious foreign power without nukes.

Self-Defence n. - 1. Our wars; 2. Israeli atrocities.

Spirit of Freedom and Democracy, the n. pl. - Our nukes.

Terrorism n. v.abs.
1. (Disagreement by) other nations.
2. Actual terrorism.
3. Arab atrocities.
4. Activities we don't know about.
5. Activities we do know about.
6. Greenpeace.
7. Immigration.
8. Other things.

Treason n. abs. - Disagreement by sections of one's own population.

Valued Trading Partner n. abs. - Suspicious foreign power with nukes.

Veto n. abs.
1. (Amer. Slang) Variation on the popular game "Snap", in which a group of people (the "yoo-en") say names of countries slowly. The object of the game is to shout "veto!" as soon as possible after the yoo-en say "Israel".
2. (For. Dngr. Pnk. Comm.) A form of persistent tinnitus.

Weapons of Mass Destruction n. abs. - Their nukes.
----------------
for Colly: The Liberal Dictionary

 

[shereads]

Love the dictionary, Perdita. That's probably the extent of Dubya's new vocabulary since he took office.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Hey Sher,

I found this little tidbit in my morning cruise through the leftist pinko liberal sites I visit to make sure I keep a balanced world view

http://www.claybennett.com/pages/latest_31.html

I think you will love it

-Colly


Edited to add this one as well

http://www.claybennett.com/pages/latest_29.html

 

[shereads]

I found this little tidbit in my morning cruise through the leftist pinko liberal sites I visit to make sure I keep a balanced world view

http://www.claybennett.com/pages/latest_31.html

I think you will love it

-Colly


Edited to add this one as well

http://www.claybennett.com/pages/latest_29.html

Thanks, Colly. My favorite was the welcome mat at the service entrance.

 

[shereads]

ROFL, choking on coffee, eyes watering, dog frightened

I found this little tidbit in my morning cruise through the leftist pinko liberal sites I visit to make sure I keep a balanced world view

I urge you to add even more balance (can one "add" balance? ::shrugs: by adding this link to your list: www.billmaher.tv

That's where I found this wit morsel to add to your tidbit collection. Warning: I choked on my coffee.

"There was one awkward moment at the Michael Jackson arraignment when the judge said to Michael, 'How do you plead?' And he said, 'I usually give them a cookie and say I'm lonely.'"




Heehee.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

 

[Colleen Thomas]

ROFL.

Poor mike, win or loose he will be the butt of bad jokes for years to come.

-Colly

 

[shereads]

ROFL.

Poor mike, win or loose he will be the butt of bad jokes for years to come.

-Colly

And that will be different from previous years because....?

 

[Colleen Thomas]

And that will be different from previous years because....?

New Material?

Even Leno eventually tires of beating a dead horse

-Colly

 

[destinie21]

No the jokes will go on I mean nobody's even touched on the "Smooth Criminal" ones yet.

 

[BlackSnake]

No the jokes will go on I mean nobody's even touched on the "Smooth Criminal" ones yet.

Des, your inbox is full. I can't respond.