God's rule against homosexuality & bisexuality

[BlueElf]

Very interesting discussion!

In my studies, I have found that most of the references to homosexuality in the Bible have to do with either promiscuity or rape. For example, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is all about the power play of the men of the city who force others (male or female) to have sex with them.

EnglishLady, most definitely God is Love, though I would debate on whether the Bible is ineffable or not

BlueElf

Sexychelle said

What do I think of it? I think that God is more compassionate than a bunch of rules that mankind tries to put over on people.

I think that is it. I think God IS love and I think he is relevent and up to date.

The bible is the word of God,Hey i'm a christian its one of my fundemental beliefs but you have to take it in its biblical context... ie it was written in another country and written a long time ago by many different people.

Each person has there own relationship with God,there own perception of him and i believe that this is how God meant it to be.

Oh and at the end of the day sin is forgiveable. All you need is your faith in Jesus and you're on your way to eternal life

(ok before anyone screams at me for that last comment, i know it over simplifies things a bit but i think we Christians OVER complicate things too much!)

 

[lilpriss]

You know before people start Bible bashing they should actually sit down and read the book. Difficult? yes. But not all that hard to figure out.

Basically it shows over and over how God uses people (BOTH what we'd call GOOD and BAD) to do His will. Solomon wasn't the nicest of fellows, he had riches and concubines and all kinds of stuff... and David had a perfectly innocent man murdered for a chic he was watching take a bath... Judas was a disciple and he turned against Jesus himself. Jonah didn't want to do God's will and ended up in the belly of a "sea creature"... There are more "bad" people in the Bible than "good" who were excellent at doing God's will.

I'm a Christian and I choose to believe the Bible, I also believe that, as it's already been said, at the time it was being written, the world was different... different corcumstances etc. But keep this in mind, some lesson can be applied to anything that is going on in your life. If you're feeling guilty over your sexuality, think about this... (If you even believe in God) We're all God's creations... I feel like he takes pleasure in our differences and in our lives (every aspect)... if you were supposed to feel bad for having sex, it wouldn't be necessary to continue humanity...

 

[BlueSugar]

Going back to morality classes I had to take while in high school

"It is ok to be homosexual... you just can't act upon it... if you act/think about the acts then it is a moral sin and thus you will pay for your sins."

It doesn't make any sense ... but its what they're teaching children/young adults. There are homosexuals that live devout roman catholic lives, I went to school with a few. But as it is in the military "don't ask don't tell..." that is the way in the church.

I feel the real issue that needs to be addressed are the molestations from clergy to lay people ((priests to non priests))
They move the priests from one church to another instead of excommunucating them...which I think is sad. They are a hush community, I only know more then I should because my step father was a victim when he was a young boy, and now is deeply disturbed mentally from how hush the church officials kept him... it is a long horrible story. ::sigh:: But anywho...

That is what they are teaching, which I think is sad as well. They teach to a degree that we lay people can understand - as did Jesus and the bible did. The creation story... is just that... a story... it is what people of the time could understand how their world and themselves were created "out of clay" instead of from just nothing. There was no apple and origional sin isn't when eve ate the apple, but when eve gave it to adam ((yes, hold the jokes on women being the root to all evil)) and adam ate the "fruit" which they teach young children is an apple... for it is something they can addentify and understand.

Aaaaand I'm off topic again, but its just more insight into the twisted teachings of the church.
And for the records I am not some devout catholic, I was forced to go to catholic school by my parents, I hated ever second of it, but while I was there I sucked all they tought, like a sponge so I can use it in discussion and aid me in my search to find a religion and a belife system I can study and join.

 

[LustUncutCock]

>>> lilpriss: You know before people start Bible bashing they should actually sit down and read the book. Difficult? yes. But not all that hard to figure out. Basically it shows over and over how God uses people (BOTH what we'd call GOOD and BAD) to do His will. Solomon wasn't the nicest of fellows, he had riches and concubines and all kinds of stuff... and David had a perfectly innocent man murdered for a chic he was watching take a bath... Judas was a disciple and he turned against Jesus himself. Jonah didn't want to do God's will and ended up in the belly of a "sea creature"... There are more "bad" people in the Bible than "good" who were excellent at doing God's will. I'm a Christian and I choose to believe the Bible, I also believe that, as it's already been said, at the time it was being written, the world was different... different corcumstances etc. But keep this in mind, some lesson can be applied to anything that is going on in your life. If you're feeling guilty over your sexuality, think about this... (If you even believe in God) We're all God's creations... I feel like he takes pleasure in our differences and in our lives (every aspect)... if you were supposed to feel bad for having sex, it wouldn't be necessary to continue humanity... <<<

LustUncutCock: hmm if you're speaking of me, i wasnt bashing The Bible. I do have respect for The Bible & God to even start this thread. Can i know your gender & sexual preference by the way? =)

 

[WanderingWiccan]

What about those of us...

Who don't pratice the so called 'orthodox religions' (read as Judeo-Christian)? I actively practiced Christianity for two and a half years as a Southern Baptist and was raised to believe in the Christian God as a member of a small town, Bible belt Methodist church of which I believe I am still technically a formal member of. I now, however, practice what I like to call Zen-Wicca which is a belief in the Wiccan art of spellcasting, communication with spirits and fairies, and the rest of the entire religion mixed with the Taoist way of life in how we should treat others, our own minds and bodies, and how one can achieve enlightenment. My Goddes and God have no problem with homosexuality or bisexuality since love, which is what it really all boils down to, is an all encompassing emotion and feeling that can reach out and touch anyone in a romantic form. Not just from a man to a woman or vice-versa.

All my life I have been deeply interested in theology. In fact, I have two good friends, both of whom happen to be ministers (one in the Southern Baptist church I attended and the other is a Presbyterian minister) that are among the smartest and most conversational men that I know. Both men put up very, very good arguements about why the Bible says that homosexuality and bisexuality is wrong and why the Christian God believes it to be an abomination. Trust me, these two are men that you will not have an easy time defeating their arguements if at all.

However, I must point out that a portion of their arguement can be turned around upon them. They have stated that we will never truly know what the Bible says because it was written in two languages that are among the most complicated of the ancient world, ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew, both of which have words that there is no translation for into any other language. Period. Then you also must examine the fact that the version of the Bible most people read is the King James version, which King James admitted he had rewritten to fit his own ideological beliefs.

Personally, I think a religion that has so many factions who can't agree with one another on anything about their system of beliefs except on one point has lost their way and forgotten how to get the message of their God out, which I have been told since I was a foot off the ground, is that GOD IS LOVE. If that be true, then why would He damn anyone to Hell even though they believed in Him and did everything He asked of them except not to be with who they're in love with, be it man or woman.

I'll stick with Wicca, thank you, and continue to honor and love my Goddess and God and pray for the world as a whole that we all one day gain the acceptance that equality that everyone wants.

Bright Blessings,
Chad

 

[Netzach]

The "rule against homosexuality" is from the same part of the story that tells you you can't mix cotton and wool in your clothing or spotted sheep with solid colored sheep and that you have to sacrifice X number of turtle doves to the Temple.

Even a lot of religious Jews who keep Kosher don't do these things.

 

[LustUncutCock]

Thanx for the replies

 

[april-wine]

Honestly, I have had way bigger issues with God than my sexuality....I just feel, I can only live my life as a good person....All the rest will get sorted out in the end.....

 

[ag2507]

What the book is

The bible is the word of God as interpreted by man. It is a strange mixture of selected texts in a variety of languages of a relatively small tribal people who needed babies to survive. Non baby making sex was just a waste: even extramarital sex was OK as long it led to babies. Prior to 2000 years ago it was a pretty flexible thing and changed a lot.

God's opinion on homosexuality is unknown! However as at least 20% of his creation are, it likely he doesn't care a whit, or made them a valuable part of his creation.

And remember, the noisest anti gays are usually closet gays struggling to come to terms with their own feelings. Pity them, and turn the other cheek!

 

[LustUncutCock]

i agree April-wine & ag2507.. thats good common sense

 

[Noor]

Too many people try to describe God the way they look at Him,and ,often ,is a very limited descritption.
(clip)
Personally,i think that as long as you don't hurt or abuse anyone else,phisically or psychically,there's nothing wrong with what you want to do-in all areas.

I agree with Isshogai7 (and welcome back, you were missed) on these above points. I am not a christian so I have limited knowledge regarding the new testament.

I would like to add that the old testament is a collection of religious texts gathered together, there were/are other texts not included and also the text were written for another time. I think time context is very important.

The story of Sodom and Gemorrah for instance is really a story about xenophobia, fear of strangers, not so much about homosexuality.

Also if one wished to take the old testament seriously, one only has to look at the Book of Job to realize that it is hubris and basically unsound for man to interpret the wisdom and thoughts of god.

There are 613 mitvot (blessings/commandments) in deutoromy of which most christian religions choose 8 or so to follow, 10 at most so why should a couple commandments of those 613 matter so much more than the others.

Clarification-The old testament was written in Arametic (sp?) not ancient hebrew.
It is true until 1850 and the beginnings of the reform movement there were no orthodox jews, only jews and in some places of the world that is still true.

“What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: That is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary: go and study"-Hillel regarding understanding the Torah (ie. the books of Moses, the first 5 books of the old testament which includes deuteromy)

 

[Guest]

 

[LustUncutCock]

Thank you Noor & woodcarver for adding more insight to this thread.. its not a Godly issue anymore as i've found good solid common sense answers here.. its an issue of self-esteem after i suck my first cock.. but yes, i kno.. its up to me to feel or not feel any demasculinization

 

[Guest]

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Hi all.. I've a serious Q >> what do u think about God's rule against homosexuality & bisexuality?

Thank you

I'm sorry, I don't know your God...he sounds like an asshole though

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Hi all.. I've a serious Q >> what do u think about God's rule against homosexuality & bisexuality?

Thank you

I was having this conversation earlier today as a matter of fact. I really have an problem with people that consider the bible etched in stone. It was taught to me that once jesus ascended from the dead all of the old testsament was no longer valid. The rules that governed sexuality, reproduction, sacrifices etc were no longer in effect and only those of differing religious aspects (ie those that follow only the old testament or those who feel the right to judge everyone regardless) follow those teachings.
I follow an earth based religion and have done so for 7 years, yet i still believe in a God of love and forgiveness. I still believe that we are only human and that our creator (knowing we are far from perfect) loves us as is....
that's my opinion...
PET

 

[LustUncutCock]

apet4you, well said

 

[shaded_one]

I don't belive in any bible but I really have no desire to get into any place that is for hetrosexauls only. Therefor I don't really care if that is a rule or not.

 

[glamorilla]

very nice pet!

 

[destinie21]

Hi all.. I've a serious Q >> what do u think about God's rule against homosexuality & bisexuality?

Thank you

I think that's not really an issue for an erotic site chatroom as even entertaining fornication and "sinful" thoughts is a sin by the bibles rules.

Ps this is really a ? One needs to answer for One's self if you feel convicted then...

shakespere said some thing about there being no good and bad
but ot's your thoughts that make it right or wrong
Ie: if you don't think drinking is bad then by doing so you're not wrong.

 

[destinie21]

Re: Very interesting discussion!

In my studies, I have found that most of the references to homosexuality in the Bible have to do with either promiscuity or rape. For example, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is all about the power play of the men of the city who force others (male or female) to have sex with them.

EnglishLady, most definitely God is Love, though I would debate on whether the Bible is ineffable or not

BlueElf

actually Sodom and Gomorrah were burnt because they forgot god not even 10 could be found who lived within his will

 

[destinie21]

My guess is that the point of this statement is that Jesus followed Judaism, and if those who claim to follow him were true to the bible, they, too, would follow Judaism.

Is that correct Painted?

Yes it true that jesus was a jew but after the sacrafice ie Jesus dying on the cross the old testament was oblitherated as were it's laws for example since the blood of Jesus was shed to wash away sin blood sacrafices of old Ie: lambs , rams ect were no longer needed and men no longer needed to come to god by way of the sacrafice nor did they need to enter the tabernacle in order to be in the presence or glory of the lord now they could simply pray and god would hear them. Since Jesus was "the messiah" which also means The Christ (greek) his followers the followers of Christ later became Christians. Also Orthodox was a name that people outside of judaism gave the staunch followers of the old law of judea who did not belive jesus was "the christ" they chose to be observant which most staunch belivers call themselves even today. as orthodox is synonomous with conformist meaning to do the accepted thing the strict belivers thought they were doing the right thing not the accepted thing. (ironically it was paganism that was actually orthodox at these times)
also even though the old testament laws were to be abolished by "the divine sacrafice" homosexuality is listed in the new testament 1Corinthians 6:9 as a sin

Ps: Just sharing what I know from old sunday school lessons I actually happen to be a lesbian, hope no one will be offended

 

[zantac666]

What do I think of it? I think that God is more compassionate than a bunch of rules that mankind tries to put over on people. To my way of thinking, it was mankind that wrote "The Book", not God. People say they were inspired. Okay. That was thousands of years ago, and under very different circumstances. To me it is impossible to have a God that is all loving and all forgiving while at the same time highly judgemental.

I truly believe that when most of us get to those pearly gates, we are gonna be very surprised at who gets in and who doesn't. After all, throughout the Bible the big point that is made is to love one another. I believe God loves the homosexual just as much as He loves anyone else. I believe it is mankind who has judged individuals for their choices.

Too much gets blamed on God and not enough on those who try to interpret what He is about. But then, that's just my opinion.

I think the same way i was told that because i did not go to church i was going to hell and itwas from a couple lds and they stoped coming to my house when i put up an american flag which they do not belive in.

 

[PoliteSuccubus]

Once again...

This is edited from an article orginally about Christains accepting Wiccans instead of villifying them. But I thought the revelent points were valid in this case as well...(for full article, please go to Pagen Thread. On a personal asside, I am Christain-Wiccan, and Wicca is one of the few relgions that accepts all parts of sexuality without question.)

Edited from: A Christian Speaks of Wicca and Witchcraft
by James Clement Taylor

A Situation of Strife and Shame:
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct?

Jesus Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion proclaimed:
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12)


If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a refusal to judge others:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)


"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew 7:2)

"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)

"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (Luke 6:36-38)

Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things, will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace, which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either. The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works, nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right church.

We have persecuted them, and God will hold us accountable for this, you may be sure, for He has said, "Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25:40)

Let us, from this point onward, repent of our misdeeds and declare that henceforth we shall obey Christ our God, and not judge others or condemn them, so that He will not have to judge and condemn us for our sins.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gayheros.com has a piece on Paul the Apostle.

Who in their right mind would ever think that St. Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles, writer of Epistles used by Christians to condemn gay people for centuries, might himself be gay?

John Shelby Spong is the Episcopal bishop of Newark wrote an article quoted there that says, among other things:

"To me it is a beautiful idea that a homosexual male, scorned then as well as now, living with both the self-judgment and the social judgments that a fearful society has so often and unknowingly pronounced upon the very being of some of its citizens, could nonetheless, not in spite of this but because of this, be the one who would define grace for the Christian people. Grace was the love of God, an unconditional love, that loved Paul just as he was. A rigidly controlled gay male, I believe, taught the Christian church what the love of God means and what, therefore, Christ means as God's agent. Finally, it was a gay male, tortured and rejected, who came to understand what resurrection means as God's vindicating act."


There's no way that we'll ever know if Paul was really gay. But Bishop Spong, who is straight himself, married with two children, defends the scandalousness of this thesis by calling attention to other well-known scandals: that Jesus could be born apparently illegitimate, that he hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors, that the Messiah could be crucified like a common criminal, -- these "scandals" seem to be that way that God works.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Most people when refering to the Bible as condeming homosexuals refer to the Old Testment teachings of Moses and the story of Soddam and Gormmorah. However, when Jesus, by his fullfillment of phosphy, washed away the old and began the new:

Paul warned regarding any who would attempt justification by the Law of Moses.

Hear him: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5: 4).

One cannot be saved by a system of meritorious works that seek to earn salvation and by grace at the same time (Rom. 11: 6).

John said, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (Jn. 1: 17).

Jesus is to be heard over Moses and Elias (law and prophets, Matt. 17: 4, 5). "For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses…And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant…"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The issues about Homosexuality are very complex and are not
understood by most members of the Christian Church," according to
Bernard Ramm of The American Baptist Seminary of the West. This
evangelical authority on biblical interpretation says that, "To them,
it is a vile form of sexual perversion condemned in both the Old and
New Testaments." But as Calvin Theological Seminary Old Testament
scholar Marten H. Woudstra says: "There is nothing in the Old
Testament that corresponds to Homosexuality as we understand it today"
and as SMU New Testament scholar Victor Paul Fumish says: "There is no
text on homosexual orientation in the Bible." Says Robin Scroggs of
Union Seminary: "Biblical judgments against Homosexuality are not
relevant to today's debate. They should no longer be used . . . not
because the Bible is not authoritative, but simply because it does not
address the issues involved. . . . No single New Testament author
considers [Homosexuality] important enough to write his own sentence
about it." Evangelical theologian Helmut Thielicke states:
"Homosexuality . . . can be discussed at all only in the framework of
that freedom which is given to us by the insight that even the New
Testament does not provide us with an evident, normative dictum with
regard to this question. Even the kind of question which we have
arrived at . . . must for purely historical reasons be alien to the
New Testament."

 

[D's mariposa]

I always swear that I'm not going to get into these deep philosophical debates, but then I do. "The best laid plans of mice and men, " and all that.

Pet, well said. You rock, woman!

Anyhoo, I usually joke that I'm a recovering Catholic. Did the Catholic school thing and all that. Later wandered about through Judaica, and Wicca, and Zen. Nowadays, I'm just spiritual, not religious. Believeng in a "Higher Power" and all that. The thing that really gets to me is that God hates me for loving women. Yes friends, that is a direct quote from my born again several times uncle from heck. (I always wonder how many times you're allowed to be born again.) When I settled down with a guy, said uncle offered a prayer of thanksgiving that I had finally seen the error of my ways. My problem with Christianity, or any religion for that matter, is that some people are such judgemental assholes about it. And these people get all the press because they make so much noise! On the question of God and sin and all that. I can't see the Occupant being concerned with who I'm sleeping with and how. I mean, I fell in love with a person, not there gender, and since love is supposed to be the ultimate manifastation of God, where is the sin in that?

One thing that we have to remember about the Bible is that it has been in the hands of mortal and fallible people for 2-3000 or so years. (I'm going back 3000 because I'm including the works that eventually became the Old Testament.) People who may have had an axe to grind or a spin to spin, converts to convert. That in itself is enough for me to take the book with a bag of salt! (as opposed to a grain..)