Happiness is a serious problem *

[mismused]

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[Roxanne Appleby]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Appleby
Um - why wouldn't you say that happiness for you is knowing that you are and have been true to yourself?

Simply because it isn't

It doesn't make me happy when I am being true to myself. There are moments of happiness during the journey, but it's not the cause of it.

Originally Posted by neonlyte
Agreed. I'm perfectly happy most of the time, but not fulfilled.

I'm the opposite Often I have an absolute sense of fulfillment, yet, that does not necessarily mean I am happy.

Nirvana appears to be using the term "happiness" in the narrow sense of experiencing a particular feeling, one that is intrinsically ephemeral. "Happiness" has another meaning though, which applies to a person's life as a whole. I think that is what is denoted by the term "fulfillment" as used here, nie? "Satisfied" might be another, although it has other meanings that don't fit so well.

 

[past_perfect]

As far as Buddhism, meditation, they're not big on happiness; they're into enlightenment, and the meditative posing to enter into it. One of the great philosopies of India (I take one person's word for it) suggest that "reasoning" is the key to all. I have to say that he has/had a point) (after reading quite a few of his books). Buddhism says that ultimately we are all emptiness (which physics seems to tend to agree with). All else is illusion. But again, "consciousness" baffles all (save the popular book writers).

As far as your "tude," it is created, either willfully, or unintentionally, or mostly some form of both. Buddhism does say we reincarnate, but not to find happiness, or to form any "tudes" toward it. "All is emptiness," or so they say, and they may be right. However, we reincarnate to find compassion as Nirvana senses herself to being (my paraphrase of some of her words), become Boddhisatvas (those who have found enlightenment, and are here to teach/help others out of the compassion in their "souls"), but they never, as far as I can see, ever say why we are if we are but illusion, or emptiness, nor how an "empty" one can find enlightenment, or why. It's all still a mystery, but we hate to feel we don't know, especially since we seem to be. Like Galileo's church masters, it seems to be so, so how can you say it isn't. Preposterous, Galileo!

Sorry.

Hm, not sure I can agree with you on the Buddhism part. The effects I am referring to are, albeit not more than my personal impression after Zazen, directly linked to the concept of accepting/experiencing the root of "unhappiness" (which is of course not more than a word, we individually assign meaning to) as desire, which is artificial, therefore void. The transcendence through knowledge, preceeds enlightenment (at least full enlightenment).
Interesting take on Raja btw, are you referring to Ramakrishna/Vivekananda?

 

[Nirvanadragones]

Nirvana appears to be using the term "happiness" in the narrow sense of experiencing a particular feeling, one that is intrinsically ephemeral.

Hmmnn . . . am I? I am refering to " feeling" yes, but not only in the narrow sense. As you describe below, that is also how I use the term " happiness" - applying it to my life as a whole.

"Happiness" has another meaning though, which applies to a person's life as a whole. I think that is what is denoted by the term "fulfillment" as used here, nie? "Satisfied" might be another, although it has other meanings that don't fit so well.

Balanced? I aim for balance.




Mismused, I just want to add that I am not ignoring your post - I'm still pondering it

 

[mismused]

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[Alessia Brio]

I'm the opposite Often I have an absolute sense of fulfillment, yet, that does not necessarily mean I am happy.

Ditto. (Imagine that!)

 

[scheherazade_79]

Happiness is an art, not a science. You can write instructional booklets that teach people the fundamentals (and am I the only one who thinks it's kind of sad that people need to be taught how to be happy ), but at the end of the day there is no magic formula you can use, nor motivational mantra you can chant.

Some people are just miserable from the moment they're born. Others become that way because they enjoy it more than being happy. And others are justifiably unhappy because they've had shit going on in their lives, and it would be weird if they suddenly leapt up and started dancing on the tables, singing kumbayas.

I think that people who make money writing books like this are charlatans, who deserve to be horsewhipped.

Moods are cyclic. If we were happy all the time, would we really appreciate it? Or would it be like a drug that gradually loses its effect?

The other question is - do we want to be happy all the time? I absolutely adore my feisty, don't-fuck-with-me moments. Similarly, I find it eerie spending time with someone who's always, always happy. It makes you wonder if they're secretly hooked up to a helium drip.

I like raw emotions that come from the heart, not some kind of polite-society facade that the person has been brainwashed into believing is good.

Perpetually bouncy people make me want to stick pins in them until they become real again.

 

[past_perfect]

Sorry, didn't refer to your post (didn't see/read it, my apologies). I just get tickled at Roxy's posting -- she, and they, are always interesting, as well as provoking. She has a way, doesn't she?

Raja/Rajah, either way is fine with me -- the mental being "king" of yogas, so they say.

As I told Roxy, I'm just a tyro. Zazen is unknown to me. Ramakrishna, and I think his disciple, Vivekananda, are late comers, though Ramakrisna is believed by many to be an incarnation of Krishna.

Transcendence through knowledge? That's a bit sticky. One can transcend without "knowledge," but then again, isn't transcendence a "knowing," therefore a knowledge? Hmm! Nice road for a meditation perhaps.

However, though I can't, or even say I come close to it, enlightenment would presuppose one is transcended. How can you be free of illusion unless you have gotten past it (which transcendence does, or gives you to know that you are not as you seem to be).

For you (I believe we've talked before), we, as we know ourselves, are always becoming, albeit, some very, very slowly, and minutely. This must be as we do grow, and with growth come changes, and then the necessary thougths to cope with our changes (if we are needful of coping with it, as many are -- me too ).

I think we are basically talking about the same thing, although our terms may differ. Buddhism is about enquiring into the nature of things, which is referred to as knowledge. The knowledge of the true nature of things leads to transcendence, as a prerequisite for enlightenment. All this is a process of becoming, so no argument from me here.

 

[Kev H]

Many can't understand why they aren't happy even if they have attained most of the things they sought.

This is pretty much illustrating my point. My opinion on those people is that they are trying to live someone elses' idea of happiness, and that the "established path" does not apply to them. In general, I think you must find your own path to happiness, which is work, both emotionally and intellectually, not something to be handed out by a fancy definition that will make light bulbs turn on. If only life were so simple. [As an aside, I believe these individual differences in happiness definitions define much of what we call "incompatibilities" in relationships; if different things make you happy, then you tend to be incompatible to some degree.]

While sharing definitions is interesting and even insightful (I have really enjoyed reading others' thoughts on their happiness/fulfillment), if you can't do the work to find your own definitions, then you don't have a chance. We all know you cannot "make someone happy" (with a few, short term exceptions, heh), and I believe that only leaves one other person with the ability to provide happiness.

I also really like the implication from your quotes that maintaining happiness requires constant effort (identifying, setting/resetting goals, recognition/thankfulness of what you have, balancing expectations, moderating your feelings, keeping perspective, and so on). All tons of "work." But IMO it's the most rewarding work of this life.

It is our nature to want to feel "happiness," but the feeling we give that label to is intrinsically ephemeral.

As I read more about foreign people, I begin to wonder if this is simply a cultural thing, or is it truly as ingrained in the human sprit as we'd like it to be.

Alessia and Neon are taking good pokes at it by leading this into a discussion of "fulfillment," and whether it is the same thing as "happiness," and what the heck do those terms mean, anyway. I'll repeat another term that fits in here: Lifelong human flourishing.

Yes, they are--awesome points, but I am like you: wondering if we're simply trying to settle on a term or word that we can all agree means the same thing, before continuing onto the real meat of the questions. I could easily define fulfillment and happiness as one in the same, but I have a giving personality (just ask my ex-g/f ). But does that mean people without that personality type cannot see a connection? I am honestly curious. And to me, "flourishing" is more of a biological term (be fruitful and multiply kinda thing), but you are obviously using it in other terms than to be showy or biologically healthy. Along those lines, to this society (in my "old codger" opinion) happiness is often associated with gratification (instant or otherwise), so may also not be a very good term for the most accurate communication. We could always combine into lifelong, fulfilling happiness.

Did I mention that I agree with humor (including, but not limited to, silliness) being a major factor?

 

[Kev H]

Happiness is an art, not a science. You can write instructional booklets that teach people the fundamentals (and am I the only one who thinks it's kind of sad that people need to be taught how to be happy ), but at the end of the day there is no magic formula you can use, nor motivational mantra you can chant.

Some people are just miserable from the moment they're born. Others become that way because they enjoy it more than being happy. And others are justifiably unhappy because they've had shit going on in their lives, and it would be weird if they suddenly leapt up and started dancing on the tables, singing kumbayas.

I think that people who make money writing books like this are charlatans, who deserve to be horsewhipped.

Moods are cyclic. If we were happy all the time, would we really appreciate it? Or would it be like a drug that gradually loses its effect?

The other question is - do we want to be happy all the time? I absolutely adore my feisty, don't-fuck-with-me moments. Similarly, I find it eerie spending time with someone who's always, always happy. It makes you wonder if they're secretly hooked up to a helium drip.

I like raw emotions that come from the heart, not some kind of polite-society facade that the person has been brainwashed into believing is good.

Perpetually bouncy people make me want to stick pins in them until they become real again.

Can it be possible to really love this post yet be scared by the poster at the same time?

ETA: The point that moodiness (diversity) is an important part of this complete balance is worth noting, but seriously and with humor.

And in answer to your mostly-rhetorical question about people having to be "taught" this, understand two obvious things, and you will see the point: that not all people are reflective by nature; they could live their entire life with something simple that's making them miserable and never figure it out/address it. And that this is an incredibly complex issue (if you are happy and wonder why everyone else isn't, then I suggest you are taking your ability for granted).

 

[mismused]

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[past_perfect]

This I don't agree with. One need not have the true nature of things to know of transcendence. In fact, one must get on the road through the realization of transcendence to come to the "reality" that is enlightenment (or unity, or "one" or "union," if you prefer as others may stipulate it). There are necessarily degrees of transcendence, and the depths, openly known, or subtly sensed, before one can enter into enlightenment.

Knowing of and transcending are two things. One supposes a knower, the other just direct knowledge or the transcendence of previous knowledge. How that is achieved or achievable is subject to different approaches, be that within different branches of Buddhism, Advaita, Christiantiy, whatever. (concept of unknowing/transcending dualism asf)

Again, I'm not sure I agree with you on this either. Being human is becoming. Why, or what we are to become is up for grabs yet. Buddhists say we strive to enlightenment, others say other things. No one, not even Buddhists, can say this is our purpose as they say we are all illusion. As I said, if we are but illusion, and all is emptiness, why are we? That we can become enlightened I do not doubt one whit, but as to what, I can't say, only say what Buddhists say, or as Hindus, and yoga stipulate: to be one, or find our unity, or union.

The one thing I do say that is purely my own belief is that Life ain't what we think it is.

Yeah, well, I think I made my personal opinion clear on that one before - that's where I digress, I don't think the I is an illusion, but a process. Becoming One and what Unity is can be speculated about, but you'd never know until that actually happens. So again, it might just be different nomenclature for the same thing. It'd say there is only one way to find out.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Is happiness a choice?

Is there a difference between happiness and joy?

Just thoughts that came up as I was reading...

that, and I'd like to dance with Roxelby, no words, just music and a sea of bodies... that would be happiness...

Joseph Campbell said: "Follow your bliss."

To me, that's the only way to even approach true happiness. Everything else is like cotton candy, it melts in your mouth, no substance.

 

[neonlyte]

Is happiness a choice?

Is there a difference between happiness and joy?

Just thoughts that came up as I was reading...

that, and I'd like to dance with Roxelby, no words, just music and a sea of bodies... that would be happiness...

Joseph Campbell said: "Follow your bliss."

To me, that's the only way to even approach true happiness. Everything else is like cotton candy, it melts in your mouth, no substance.

Happiness is a choice - as long as the source of happiness is within your control. It's almost impossible to dictate terms for happiness, where another party is involved, it is relatively uncomplicated to accept a degree of happiness by adjusting your mindset.

I always think of 'joy' as being synonymous with spontaneous happiness, an extra that makes your cup floweth over.

"Follow your bliss" - yes, as long as it is tempered with realism, the blissfully ignorant can cause havoc.

By the way Selena, your website doesn't 'flow' properly, I have to pan across the page on my small screen to see the content. You probably know this - just me being finniky.

 

[Munachi]

um... happiness is to be dumb and have a job? or as they say in berlin - du hastet jut, du bist doof...?

 

[Munachi]

(oh, and after all, they also say "dumm bumst gut"...)

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Is happiness a choice?

Is there a difference between happiness and joy?

Just thoughts that came up as I was reading...

that, and I'd like to dance with Roxelby, no words, just music and a sea of bodies... that would be happiness...

OK, I'll dance if I have to I guess, but afterwards do you think we could just talk, about political philosophy, or happiness, or people we know, or sumpthin like that?

(Thanks, Selena - your kind words made me happy. )

"Joy" - good word. Perhaps that is the term we should use for the intrinsically transitory feeling that is often called "happiness," just to distinguish it from the "big picture" happiness, which I think of as the thing that some are calling "fulfillment" here.

It's not just a matter of definitions that caused me to start this thread, though. I'm trying to understand the relationship between these different things, and how to integrate them.



Neon said, "I'm perfectly happy most of the time, but not fulfilled. Fulfillment wouldn't necessarily make me happier, but it brings a different sense of value to my life."

Nirvana said, "Often I have an absolute sense of fulfillment, yet, that does not necessarily mean I am happy." Alessia ditto'd that.

I'm not sure, guys. I think we are missing something. I am going to substitute the word "pleased" to denote the feeling one has upon getting or acheiving a specific desired thing or event, and "happiness" for the term "fulfillment" as others are using that here.

Neon, I think I'm like you in going through my day-to-day life perfectly pleased, taking satisfaction in my work, smelling the roses, enjoying a few sensual pleasures, not experiencing much pain or stress. I have a abstract intellectual idea that I should want much more, and be filled with angst that I don't have it, but I don't and I'm not. Sometimes I fear that this means I am "broken" in some way, but it gives me no pain.

Vana and Alessia, I know that you have experienced much more pain than I, and I suspect that you are more wise than I. I find it very interesting that while Vana says that the transcient pleased feeling one expereinces upon acheiving a desired thing or goal are not her purpose in life, she strives for those things anyway, as does Alessia. Vana also speaks of "voids," and yearning - things that if I experience at all I do to a much lesser degree. (In part this may be related to age - I am decades older than she.) Vana calls the real purpose "being true to herself," which may be hard to define.

Trying to integrate it all . . .

 

[neonlyte]

Neon said, "I'm perfectly happy most of the time, but not fulfilled. Fulfillment wouldn't necessarily make me happier, but it brings a different sense of value to my life."

Nirvana said, "Often I have an absolute sense of fulfillment, yet, that does not necessarily mean I am happy." Alessia ditto'd that.

I'm not sure, guys. I think we are missing something. I am going to substitute the word "pleased" to denote the feeling one has upon getting or acheiving a specific desired thing or event, and "happiness" for the term "fulfillment" as others are using that here.

Neon, I think I'm like you in going through my day-to-day life perfectly pleased, taking satisfaction in my work, smelling the roses, enjoying a few sensual pleasures, not experiencing much pain or stress. I have a abstract intellectual idea that I should want much more, and be filled with angst that I don't have it, but I don't and I'm not. Sometimes I fear that this means I am "broken" in some way, but it gives me no pain.

I'm dead lucky - I have someone to sooth away the angst, who never lets me feel 'broken'.
I'm also good at what I do - I don't mean the mechanical process of 'doing', we all become proficient to a degree in our chosen field, I'm lucky enough to be able to turn my hand to varying activities with a measure of success. I decided years ago, my skills were best applied to help others, and this is where I gain fulfillment. My personal ambitions are always to grandiose to be met by my meagre resources, so I pitch my tent within boundaries I can reach judging it better, more fulfilling and of greater worth in terms of personal happiness to achieve positive results than strive for greater goals that may be achievable through sacrifice. I'd rather spend time with my wife than in an office, so I've worked for myself for most of 35years but never extended myself - except when I had a patisserie - beyond an ability to help my wife meet her goals and challenges as an artist.

We've had big discussions about this recently (wife and I) - largely about whether to stretch for one large project we both want to do, or take a less stressful route. No decision as yet, though we are pushing for the large project to see if the 'local authorities' want to play ball, managing the project will fall largely upon me, I'm not sure I want to give myself that much of a problem when I'd rather be writing. Doing the project would be the fulfillment of a joint dream, but will it keep us happy?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Trying to integrate it all . . .

come dance instead, darlin'... you might "get" it faster that way...

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

come dance instead, darlin'... you might "get" it faster that way...

Vella said some things recently that makes me think there is wisdom in what you say.

Anyone remember "Zorba the Greek?"

 

[Selena_Kitt]

By the way Selena, your website doesn't 'flow' properly, I have to pan across the page on my small screen to see the content. You probably know this - just me being finniky.

Oh... I formatted it to fit my huge 17" screen... doh!!! Thanks for pointing it out, Neo.

/threadjack

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Bump.

Let's take it from the top.

 

[trysail]

Happiness is ephemeral and protean. "The pursuit of happiness" is all we're allowed.

For me, there's next to nothing that trumps being aboard a seaworthy sailing vessel with family and friends on a broad reach in the trades. At the end of the day, there's a safe anchorage ahead, with swimming, snorkeling, lollygagging in the cockpit with a Heineken and French cuisine ashore. It doesn't get much better.

There are, of course, other episodes of happiness: the satisfaction that comes from purchasing ownership in a good business enterprise at a bargain price. These opportunities are extremely rare and only arise during periods of widespread pessimism- pessimism with roots in a widely publicized event(s) and well-known reason(s). They can be seized because of decades of hard work, self-discipline, saving, preparation, careful analysis, patience, determination, and prudence.

Achievement and accomplishment are also sources of happiness. Standing atop a peak in the Rockies, the Appalachians, or the Alps while gazing at an unobstructed 360° view following exhausting hours of ascent sends my spirits soaring. The sense of well-being in the midst of or after completing a four mile run through the woods is indescribably blissful. There's the sheer delight of a screaming, top-spinned serve that explodes in my opponent's service court, leaving him confounded, stunned and bewildered. How lovely 'tis to reach (much less return) an adversary's shot that even I didn't think possible while listening to his exasperation and exclamation of disbelief. It's delightful to close the cover of a book that is well-written, thoroughly researched and has given me new insight into history, distant lands, or the lives of others. There is always the happy serendipity of stumbling upon a new word- one never previously encountered- that by its wondrous specificity fills a void. Then, there is the joy of the clever pun, the artful phrase, face-contorting dry wit, the apt double entendre, and the artistry of language. There's the joyful bliss of pure puppy love.

There have been, there are, and there will always be dark times. We all have 'em. Never, never, never, never quit. Resolve well and persevere.

"Climb high, climb far-
your goal the sky,
your aim the star!"

 

[CharleyH]

I've been thinking about happiness, specifically, what is the nature of it? The following passages from an article by scholar Dwight Lee are a good starting point:

Sensory Adaptation
. . . Another reason why (getting more of something you want) increases happiness only temporarily springs from our sensory adaptation to changing circumstances. It has long been observed that things people are at first intensely aware of soon blend into the background and go largely unnoticed. Our sensory receptors no longer respond to the continuous presence of this stimulus, whether an irritating one (for example, a noise, a foul odor, a flashing light, or the pressure from eyeglasses or hearing aids) or a pleasant one (for example, the sight of attractive and artfully arranged furniture, a beautiful view, or the coolness of an air-conditioned room on a hot day). More complicated stimuli, such as a new car or a new companion, which activate many of our sensory receptors in various ways that depend on a wide range of circumstances, resist sensory adaptation for a longer period, but they are not immune to it. Accord¬ing to psychologist Martin Seligman, “this process [of adaptation or habituation] is an inviolable neurological fact of life. Neurons are wired to respond to novel events, and not to fire if the events do not provide new information” (2002, 105). In other words, our sensory receptors are economizers, becoming activated only when new information becomes available. This process suggests that the higher income we are receiving and the new clothes, nicer car, and bigger house it allows us to purchase soon become old information, no longer able to activate our sensory awareness and keep us on an elevated level of happiness.


As Good as It Gets
. . . Nothing can increase happiness permanently. For example, few things should make people happier than a longer life. If I were informed today that my life expectancy had just increased by six years, I would surely experience a surge in happiness. Just as surely, however, my elevated happiness would not last long. After all, my additional life expectancy would bring me up only to the level of life expectancy for women, and happiness studies show that women are only slightly, if at all, happier than men. Women have adapted to the old news of their longer life expectancy, focusing their concerns on unsettled issues in their lives, and so would I. Consider anything we value and seek more of because we believe it will make us happy—sexual satisfaction, religious fulfillment, professional success, a loving family, good friends, robust health, more education, or better looks, to name just a few. Like more money, more of these things increases our happiness, but only temporarily. We soon adapt to them and soon take them for granted, and though theyare important ingredients of a satisfying life, they lose their ability to boost our sense of happiness much, if at all, above the level we would experience with less of them once we had adapted to the loss.

. . . Achieving happiness is an ongoing project, not something that can be accomplished once and for all by earning more money, marrying the love of your life, having wonderful children, finishing a Ph.D., or receiving tenure at a prestigious university.

. . . It is in our nature that we adapt to improvements in our lives, whether those improvements arise from more money or other desirable things, so that the additional happiness they bring is temporary. This fact of life, however, is hardly reason for pessimism . . . There is much wisdom in the commonplace that the journey is more important than the destination. Human happiness comes from striving for improvements and from the sense of achievement gained by overcoming the challenges we face along the way . . . The happiness gained from struggle and achievement may be temporary, but fortunately our insatiable desire for more of life’s good things guarantees that new struggles and achievements are always available for replenishing our happiness.

Dwight Lee, "Who Says Money Can't Buy Happiness?" Independent Review, Winter 2006


*Apologies to Dennis Praeger for stealing the title of his book as the title of this thread.

People think too much about happiness that they don't have much time to be happy. Just be ... .

Now, there's happiness.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Happiness is ephemeral and protean. "The pursuit of happiness" is all we're allowed.

And yet -

You have described pleasures. Pleasures are an important component of happiness, but are not its sum. It would be easy to imagine a different person experiencing all of those particular pleasures and nevertheless being very unhappy. Or someone who is able to experience very few of them being very happy indeed. And then there is the "sensory adaptation" issue described in the first part of this thread.

In short, pleasures are certainly desireable and can add to happiness, but they are not sufficient to bring it about, and don't explain it.