House cats - killers?

[Netzach]

Keeping a rabbit, mouse, or snake as a pet is cruel.

You might love having them as pets, but you would not be showing love for the animal by locking it up.

We've domesticated the rabbit and moved from keeping it to eat in hutches to keeping it as a pet in homes. Catching a jack rabbit off your lawn and caging it is cruel, rescuing a Netherland dwarf house rabbit from a rabbit rescue is not. That's like saying your dog is cruel because he's a perverted wolf reject who's better off chasing deer.

Snakes, I have mixed feelings on. I love them, I'd get one if it were practical in a "ooo want" sense but I also don't love the idea on other levels because I do like snakes as much as I do.

Mice, I honestly don't think they'd be happier being eaten by cat than sleeping in cedar shavings for all 3 years of a geriatric mouse life.

I vascillate on this one. I get sad seeing animals go psycho in captivity, but sometimes I think freedom and wildness are anthropomorphizing human values for animals who don't go psycho in captivity.

Bunny I have no issue with. Polar bear makes me sad. But then you have to argue that Knut's star power may do a lot for his species as a whole.

 

[JMohegan]

We've domesticated the rabbit and moved from keeping it to eat in hutches to keeping it as a pet in homes. Catching a jack rabbit off your lawn and caging it is cruel, rescuing a Netherland dwarf house rabbit from a rabbit rescue is not. That's like saying your dog is cruel because he's a perverted wolf reject who's better off chasing deer.

Snakes, I have mixed feelings on. I love them, I'd get one if it were practical in a "ooo want" sense but I also don't love the idea on other levels because I do like snakes as much as I do.

Mice, I honestly don't think they'd be happier being eaten by cat than sleeping in cedar shavings for all 3 years of a geriatric mouse life.

I vascillate on this one. I get sad seeing animals go psycho in captivity, but sometimes I think freedom and wildness are anthropomorphizing human values for animals who don't go psycho in captivity.

Bunny I have no issue with. Polar bear makes me sad. But then you have to argue that Knut's star power may do a lot for his species as a whole.

If rabbits are now kept like house cats - free to move around, trained to use a litter box, exercised and stimulated frequently - then that's definitely better than a hutch. I agree.

I don't vascillate on this issue, as it relates to most animals. And most of the anthropomorphizing that goes on seems to me to be self serving, i.e., working the other way.

 

[Netzach]

If rabbits are now kept like house cats - free to move around, trained to use a litter box, exercised and stimulated frequently - then that's definitely better than a hutch. I agree.

I don't vascillate on this issue, as it relates to most animals. And most of the anthropomorphizing that goes on seems to me to be self serving, i.e., working the other way.

So it's the caging that bugs you mostly, I'm assuming.

Yes, most rabbit people I know of definitely have the relationship you described to their rabbits.

 

[Recidiva]

So it's the caging that bugs you mostly, I'm assuming.

Yes, most rabbit people I know of definitely have the relationship you described to their rabbits.

I love hamsters, but I'll never keep one again. I konw they want to get out desperately and the cute running on the hamster ball and through the hands is most likely "get me the fuck out of here!" rather than "wheee, this is fun!"

I agree that lots of caged animals lack any bonding that makes it a pet to owner relationship issue, and more of a "human thinks it's adorable or fascinating" issue.

I dislike many zoos for this reason and particularly trained animals without dignity or choice. When I hear about animals that won't breed in captivity I understand why. I also think every now and then that when a big-cat trainer or keeper gets mauled - what exactly where they thinking using animals for entertainment and treating them casually?

I have hopes for zoos and rehab centers that have the animal's interest at heart, where captivity is a step in a chain to hopefully get them back out into the wild, once we figure out how exactly to do that with each animal.

I don't think hamsters are domesticated. They're captive. Dogs, cats...I think they're domesticated and can choose to stay or run and often are the result of being domesticated and abandoned.

On that note, I don't get fish at all.

 

[JMohegan]

So it's the caging that bugs you mostly, I'm assuming.

Yes, most rabbit people I know of definitely have the relationship you described to their rabbits.

I see cages as cruel, yes.


ETA to Recidiva - That about sums it up, I agree.

When I think about caged birds, I think my god, what the hell is the matter with people?

 

[ownedsubgal]

I see cages as cruel, yes.

something we can agree on, there's hope yet. i am appalled by the continued caging of any animal, which is yet another reason why i allow my cat the opportunity to roam about outdoors daily. to keep an animal such as a cat or dog inside the confines of a house or apartment 24/7 is equivalent to a cage, imo.

 

[Keroin]

If I join in the conversation now it will turn into a self serving rant. So I'll not.

Suffice it to say, I abhor cages and I leave wild things where they are. If a wild animal chooses to interact with me, fair enough. And what moments those are! *Heart soars*

 

[Keroin]

to keep an animal such as a cat or dog inside the confines of a house or apartment 24/7 is equivalent to a cage, imo.

Dogs yes, cats no.

 

[JMohegan]

something we can agree on, there's hope yet. i am appalled by the continued caging of any animal, which is yet another reason why i allow my cat the opportunity to roam about outdoors daily. to keep an animal such as a cat or dog inside the confines of a house or apartment 24/7 is equivalent to a cage, imo.

This is why I did not own a dog when I lived in Manhattan.

Common agreement is good! I'm heading out of town for a few days, and very happy to leave on that note.

Take care, folks.

 

[Keroin]

When I think about caged birds, I think my god, what the hell is the matter with people?

Must resist urge to rant.

 

[Recidiva]

Must resist urge to rant.

Birds are one of those situations where I think they interact with humans and are very, very intelligent. I mean, c'mon, they talk.

There's no way to train them to go on the paper.

I think I saw a "How Clean Is Your House" episode with a bird lover woman who didn't believe in cages. Ye Gods.

 

[Netzach]

I love hamsters, but I'll never keep one again. I konw they want to get out desperately and the cute running on the hamster ball and through the hands is most likely "get me the fuck out of here!" rather than "wheee, this is fun!"

I agree that lots of caged animals lack any bonding that makes it a pet to owner relationship issue, and more of a "human thinks it's adorable or fascinating" issue.

I dislike many zoos for this reason and particularly trained animals without dignity or choice. When I hear about animals that won't breed in captivity I understand why. I also think every now and then that when a big-cat trainer or keeper gets mauled - what exactly where they thinking using animals for entertainment and treating them casually?

I have hopes for zoos and rehab centers that have the animal's interest at heart, where captivity is a step in a chain to hopefully get them back out into the wild, once we figure out how exactly to do that with each animal.

I don't think hamsters are domesticated. They're captive. Dogs, cats...I think they're domesticated and can choose to stay or run and often are the result of being domesticated and abandoned.

On that note, I don't get fish at all.

To me, it's an issue of enrichment. Can you enrich the environment and how much?

This applies to dogs, cats, and whatnot. Fish confuse me too. How can you enrich a fish's experience? Unlikely.

Hamster enrichment always seemed kind of sad to me, too.

A rat that just sits in its glass tank - sad.

A rat that people can take out, supervise, interact with, sometimes for hours out of every day - not an issue. Rats are intelligent and can be interacted with on that level.

An aggressive ferret that was destined to be a sable coat that someone got without knowing anything about and just cages because it's badly behaved - not cool.

A pet-bred ferret with a good disposition (because you put in the time) that sleeps on your head at night - 'nother story.

And we've been pet breeding the ferret longer than the cat. Interesting factoid, eh?

 

[Netzach]

Must resist urge to rant.

I'm with you.

It's like a caged toddler as far as I'm concerned. They're kind of their own subset because of the intelligence and feathers bit.

 

[Netzach]

If I join in the conversation now it will turn into a self serving rant. So I'll not.

Suffice it to say, I abhor cages and I leave wild things where they are. If a wild animal chooses to interact with me, fair enough. And what moments those are! *Heart soars*

I don't think anyone's advocating taking things out of the environment and caging them for the shits and giggles.

I do think that an early visit to something like a raptor rehab center, though, as a kid can make another rabid bird fan who appreciates the various species and the diversity of species, and who isn't like "ooo mean hawks."

However, to the class toads, king snakes, and hermit crabs used to teach us about the hudson valley in the late seventies: I'm so sorry.

 

[eastern sun]

Keeping a rabbit, mouse, or snake as a pet is cruel.

You might love having them as pets, but you would not be showing love for the animal by locking it up.

Having kept rabbits, mice, birds, and now a snake as pets, I haven't experienced myself as a cruel person. Nor have I experienced them as unhappy, suffering animals. My pets have lived long, healthy lives, often longer than their average life span in the wild, and have demonstrated an interest in us, learned to communicate effectively, and offered real companionship to me, my husband and my kids.

I will say I was not a great keeper of fish. The learning curve in caring for them made the experience a real challenge. And a number of individuals were sacrificed for the sake of my education. That, I admit, was probably cruel.

(and not unlike the experience of many kids with first-year teachers)

 

[Recidiva]

I'm with you.

It's like a caged toddler as far as I'm concerned. They're kind of their own subset because of the intelligence and feathers bit.

Yup. I had a cousin who rescued every single animal she ever found, and she just had injured animal karma. It was uncanny. She ended up with skunks, raccoons, ferrets, chinchillas, puppies, turtles...in a studio apartment that didn't allow pets.

The chinchilla was the sweetest thing. But let it out and it'll electrocute itself by chewing through the electrical cords. Clearly happy with its owner and situation, but entirely unable to handle itself in a human environment.

Bit like a toddler.

But toddlers hopefully don't immediately try to escape...wait..that's not a good comparison on second thought...

Expecting the animal to be smarter than a human child and understand its environment is unreasonable. In some cases the cage or the pen is a reasonable safety or hygine issue and not cruelty.

 

[Recidiva]

Having kept rabbits, mice, birds, and now a snake as pets, I haven't experienced myself as a cruel person. Nor have I experienced them as unhappy, suffering animals. My pets have lived long, healthy lives, often longer than their average life span in the wild, and have demonstrated an interest in us, learned to communicate effectively, and offered real companionship to me, my husband and my kids.

I will say I was not a great keeper of fish. The learning curve in caring for them made the experience a real challenge. And a number of individuals were sacrificed for the sake of my education. That, I admit, was probably cruel.

(and not unlike the experience of many kids with first-year teachers)

I'm fascinated as to how a snake communicated effectively, offered real companionship and interest.

I'm not doubting, I just want to know, because that'd be cool.

I like snakes. They're cold blooded and epitomize "lizard brain" so I guess I think of them as too laid back and lacking brain function enough to really communicate that. It'd be cool if that was wrong.

 

[Netzach]

Yup. I had a cousin who rescued every single animal she ever found, and she just had injured animal karma. It was uncanny. She ended up with skunks, raccoons, ferrets, chinchillas, puppies, turtles...in a studio apartment that didn't allow pets.

The chinchilla was the sweetest thing. But let it out and it'll electrocute itself by chewing through the electrical cords. Clearly happy with its owner and situation, but entirely unable to handle itself in a human environment.

Bit like a toddler.

But toddlers hopefully don't immediately try to escape...wait..that's not a good comparison on second thought...

Expecting the animal to be smarter than a human child and understand its environment is unreasonable. In some cases the cage or the pen is a reasonable safety or hygine issue and not cruelty.

Totally.

What you *do* is a large part of it.

Also rescue versus contributing to the exotic black market, how you got your animal, help for individuals who are already here and it's too late to say "fly free!"

I'd never *buy* a bird, let's put it that way. Would I take on a bird that some asshole got over their head with? Should we just put those down?

 

[Recidiva]

Totally.

What you *do* is a large part of it.

Also rescue versus contributing to the exotic black market, how you got your animal, help for individuals who are already here and it's too late to say "fly free!"

I'd never *buy* a bird, let's put it that way. Would I take on a bird that some asshole got over their head with? Should we just put those down?

I've never bought an animal either, but I've owned five. I think the technical term for someone like me is "sucker smush bleeding heart wuss" or something Latin like that.

My one attempt at bird rescue ended up being hilarious.

There was a full-grown Canadian Goose that I found on the road in front of my house. Stunned, helpless, I don't know what happened, but there he/she was.

I managed to carry the bird upstairs and get him/her into my bathtub, only to discover that after my fantic calls to the Raptor Society and the local animal specialists I could contact by phone, I now had a fully conscious and not-injured Canadian Goose very angry at me with no clear escape path.

Not ideal.

We did not bond.

And I don't think Canadian Geese like stairs. I did gather that.

 

[Netzach]

I've never bought an animal either, but I've owned five. I think the technical term for someone like me is "sucker smush bleeding heart wuss" or something Latin like that.

My one attempt at bird rescue ended up being hilarious.

There was a full-grown Canadian Goose that I found on the road in front of my house. Stunned, helpless, I don't know what happened, but there he/she was.

I managed to carry the bird upstairs and get him/her into my bathtub, only to discover that after my fantic calls to the Raptor Society and the local animal specialists I could contact by phone, I now had a fully conscious and not-injured Canadian Goose very angry at me with no clear escape path.

Not ideal.

We did not bond.

Holy shit. They can kick one's ass.

I give 'em a wiiiide berth in the park.

 

[eastern sun]

I'm fascinated as to how a snake communicated effectively, offered real companionship and interest.

I'm not doubting, I just want to know, because that'd be cool.

I like snakes. They're cold blooded and epitomize "lizard brain" so I guess I think of them as too laid back and lacking brain function enough to really communicate that. It'd be cool if that was wrong.

I'll admit it, the majority of the communicative work with a snake has to come from us. They are not instinctively social.

But it is still possible to develop a relationship of familiarity over time.

The first thing we had to do was learn how to interpret her behavior. Snakes don't just sit around all the time. They can be very active. She has natural cycles that change with the seasons, i.e. dormant winters, breeding springs, and when we work with her natural behaviors, we can understand each other pretty well.

She clearly demonstrates when she's hungry, looking for a mate, feels threatened, is about to shed her skin, needs more humidity.

I don't hold her that often, but my nine-year old daughter does, and she has learned how to make a hissing sound through her teeth that settles her. (She may be demonstrating her dominance, but we think that's o.k. in our world.) My daughter has also learned how to stroke her in a way that calms her, and the snake appears to recognize and accept my daughter's handling in preference over others.

But even I, who most often feed her, feel a relationship with her as we sit together. Us humans are probably the only ones feeling affection. And I recognize I may be projecting it into the interaction, but she responds to our presence in a way that makes us feel recognized.

It's also endlessly fascinating to learn the ways of a snake,. We went through an entire breeding period this spring where we thought we were going to get eggs fertilized by semen she had stored. Her behavior became really varied and interesting, and I was making weekly visits to the experts to figure out what to do.

 

[Recidiva]

I'll admit it, the majority of the communicative work with a snake has to come from us. They are not instinctively social.

But it is still possible to develop a relationship of familiarity over time.

The first thing we had to do was learn how to interpret her behavior. Snakes don't just sit around all the time. They can be very active. She has natural cycles that change with the seasons, i.e. dormant winters, breeding springs, and when we work with her natural behaviors, we can understand each other pretty well.

She clearly demonstrates when she's hungry, looking for a mate, feels threatened, is about to shed her skin, needs more humidity.

I don't hold her that often, but my nine-year old daughter does, and she has learned how to make a hissing sound through her teeth that settles her. (She may be demonstrating her dominance, but we think that's o.k. in our world.) My daughter has also learned how to stroke her in a way that calms her, and the snake appears to recognize and accept my daughter's handling in preference over others.

But even I, who most often feed her, feel a relationship with her as we sit together. Us humans are probably the only ones feeling affection. And I recognize I may be projecting it into the interaction, but she responds to our presence in a way that makes us feel recognized.

It's also endlessly fascinating to learn the ways of a snake,. We went through an entire breeding period this spring where we thought we were going to get eggs fertilized by semen she had stored. Her behavior became really varied and interesting, and I was making weekly visits to the experts to figure out what to do.

Very cool, thank you

Things are a lot more nuanced than my interests might lead me to believe, and I appreciate getting insight from someone who has more experience.

My son's opened me up to this a bit, he's got Asperger's and his ability to observe animals and their individual and social habits is extraordinary. He's told me more about what the cats do and mean by their behavior because he's really, really watching. He can get down on the floor and mimic grooming, greeting, all sorts of little kitty rituals that I didn't even notice and they love the HELL out of him. We nicknamed him "The Kitty Whisperer." The physical habits of animals are of more interest to him and he's naturally more inclined to watch them and learn from them. I'm more inclined to be annoyed at feeding them and having them underfoot and I spend less time watching. I guess I'm more inclined to pick up the more human and obvious aspects, and I miss the rest.

Every now and then I get a reversal of an opinion, and I see how someone who has really watched a species and figured it out can correct where I am ignorant and prejudiced.

There was a guy on "Shark Week" also who was explaining about how to swim around tiger sharks, how to move, how to act, and I'm thinking "That dude's shark bait, ooh hah hah."

But he goes down in a set of trunks and flippers, no oxygen tanks, free swimming, graceful, no thrashing, and turns out he's out there hand-feeding tiger sharks big hunks of meat and I swear, they look like they're dancing.

So there's something to it. Sometimes, true, it's anthropomorphizing and denial. Sometimes...it's a real breakthrough in observation of living patterns I miss.

 

[Keroin]

I don't think anyone's advocating taking things out of the environment and caging them for the shits and giggles.

I do think that an early visit to something like a raptor rehab center, though, as a kid can make another rabid bird fan who appreciates the various species and the diversity of species, and who isn't like "ooo mean hawks."

However, to the class toads, king snakes, and hermit crabs used to teach us about the hudson valley in the late seventies: I'm so sorry.

No, I get that. I'm all for facilities that *genuinely* are set up to protect and rehabilitate wild animals. Rescued animals that can no longer function in the wild? Torn. Education? No. Go rent Blue Planet or something.

I don't like to get ranting because this is my world, my experience and I hate finger wagging and I know that's how it always ends up with me.

Domestic cats and dogs chose to be with us and that's fantastic. As for everything else, it's not about enhancing the animal's life or forming a human-animal bond, for me. I like things to be where they naturally belong and to just *be*, whether I get to be a part of it or not. Nature will always be more cruel than domesticity but it is natural, and I'm all for that. If I wanted to get really metaphysical and all that...I guess I just feel I have no right to inflict my will on other creatures purely for my enjoyment. Survival, fine. Pleasure, no.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't know much about the animals that could be kept in cages. The rabbit we had as a kid was NOT my idea and we quickly gave him or her to a farm, basically, where it could run all over the place. I would never have one. I have a friend who has birds and she's very dedicated to animals. I never really thought about it before, but I would hate to think of her as cruel. I know she takes them out a lot.

We have dogs and do live in a city, but we have a yard and a big place (not an apt). Plus there is a great dog park near us. They seem to be happy to me.

 

[eastern sun]

Very cool, thank you

Things are a lot more nuanced than my interests might lead me to believe, and I appreciate getting insight from someone who has more experience.

My son's opened me up to this a bit, he's got Asperger's and his ability to observe animals and their individual and social habits is extraordinary. He's told me more about what the cats do and mean by their behavior because he's really, really watching. He can get down on the floor and mimic grooming, greeting, all sorts of little kitty rituals that I didn't even notice and they love the HELL out of him. We nicknamed him "The Kitty Whisperer." The physical habits of animals are of more interest to him and he's naturally more inclined to watch them and learn from them. I'm more inclined to be annoyed at feeding them and having them underfoot and I spend less time watching. I guess I'm more inclined to pick up the more human and obvious aspects, and I miss the rest.

Every now and then I get a reversal of an opinion, and I see how someone who has really watched a species and figured it out can correct where I am ignorant and prejudiced.

There was a guy on "Shark Week" also who was explaining about how to swim around tiger sharks, how to move, how to act, and I'm thinking "That dude's shark bait, ooh hah hah."

But he goes down in a set of trunks and flippers, no oxygen tanks, free swimming, graceful, no thrashing, and turns out he's out there hand-feeding tiger sharks big hunks of meat and I swear, they look like they're dancing.

So there's something to it. Sometimes, true, it's anthropomorphizing and denial. Sometimes...it's a real breakthrough in observation of living patterns I miss.

Hey! My son was just diagnosed with Asperger's.

It was his father who taught me how to sit with animals, though. We were in the jungle in Guatamala, and everyone was tramping around, climbing the ruins, taking pictures, making noise, and he just chose a spot in the park to sit. At first, I thought it was kind of boring. But. . . there were animals everywhere. Jaguarundi in the trees, coatimundi on the ground, spider monkeys, howlers, birds. It was incredible. We even got to watch huge vultures do a mating dance.

We came back to the United States, and lo and behold, there were just as many animals here. I just didn't know how to see them before.