House cats - killers?

[Keroin]

It is one thing to see an animal on TV, and another entirely to see it in person. While I sympathise with you, Keroin, and agree that the best way to experience that animal is in its' natural habitat, most of us will never get out to that habitat. And most of those animals will do everything they can to avoid us if we do get out there. And this doesn't even touch on how dangerous it could be to meet said animal in its' own range.

But when I take my kids to the Virginia Living Museum, and they get to see some of the incredible wildlife we have in this area, they have a very powerful lesson on what these creatures are and why they need to be protected. It might suck for the individual animal in question, but what sort of positive impact is that critter having on the human populace that spends so much time and effort and money encroaching on his habitat?

Education, while onerous perhaps for the individual animal, has worth. If one person a day walks away convinced that this species needs protecting, it may well be worth it.

Agreed that seeing an animal on TV is not the same as a wild encounter. Agreed that zoos do have some *limited* benefits to both animals and humans.

Have zoos and aquariums dramatically changed the world view of animals and our need to protect their habitat, etc, etc? Not so much.

I'm out here in the trenches and have been for a long time. People are just as ignorant and/or uncaring as ever, trust me. Last week some island kid went out and killed a stonefish just to show it to the tourists. He charged them a buck a piece to see it. In one day he made $90. That's saying something considering how few tourists we get. This is one incident of many, many, many, many that I've seen here and everywhere.

If I believed putting a few animals in captivity was really helping the rest of them, on a large scale, I'd be all for it.

Enough rant for today, must drink tea.

 

[Shankara20]

must drink tea.

milk-first or milk-last?

oh
sorry -

wrong thread.....

Never mind

 

[graceanne]

milk-first or milk-last?

oh
sorry -

wrong thread.....

Never mind

NO MILK!

You all are SICK!

 

[Keroin]

milk-first or milk-last?

oh
sorry -

wrong thread.....

Never mind

What kind of weirdo puts milk in tea????

 

[graceanne]

I'm not gonna get involved in the 'captivity vs freedom' discussion, but it reminds me of a story.

My mom used to have this friend who, when she was married, raised exotic animals. They had gazelle and ostriches. She's got some awesome stories.

But one time her husband went to buy food. She told him NOT to bring home any more pets. He came home with a pair of monkeys. They're those small ones, with the really long tails - can't recall their name. He'd gotten them for $300, because if you separate them they'll die, and they were a boy/boy pair and not worth much.

They became pets. They were kept in the house and let loose during the day, just like a pet. She'd put them in their cage at night, though.

Anyway, a few months later they had some baby monkeys. Turns out it was a boy/girl pair. So my mom's friend was calling the local zoos asking how to take care of these baby monkeys. And the zoos were going 'YOU HAVE BABY . . whatever they were.'

Turns out none of the zoos had had any luck getting them to breed. They realized they won't breed in captivity. Her monkey were breeding because they were pets.

The cute part is that the baby monkeys could get out of the cage at night and that would PISS THEIR MOTHER OFF. She'd be in the cage screaming at them, and you could almost hear her say 'GET YOUR ASS BACK IN HERE!' LOL

 

[graceanne]

What kind of weirdo puts milk in tea????

Exactly!

 

[Shankara20]

Six years ago I left a gone-to-hell relationship by moving 1,500 miles away. I set up my living alone household in a 850 sq ft duplex (small place). After living alone and loving it for about 1 1/2 years - my place was clean, well ordered, organized and quiet. One day I found my self stretched out on the couch watching TV once again and I was lonely and bored.

"It is time to get cats"

It just popped into my head.

Four years later my place is a mess with cat hairs, cleaning the cat box is a twice-weekly event, yelling "shut the fuck up" at one of my two cats in my bedroom window at 3:30 am is a common happening.

When I am spending a weekend at GF's I leave them inside, rebuilding my place upon my return home is to be expected.

I can no longer step outside barefoot for my morning paper due to the fresh entrails often on my porch.

Should I bell my cats? I suppose.
But, there is an evil streak in me that my cats play out for me....

I am a happy pet person - this time just cats but that is only a room issue. GF had a dog, so I get my dogie fix over there.

 

[Shankara20]

What kind of weirdo puts milk in tea????

better to discuss that here

 

[Homburg]

Agreed that seeing an animal on TV is not the same as a wild encounter. Agreed that zoos do have some *limited* benefits to both animals and humans.

Have zoos and aquariums dramatically changed the world view of animals and our need to protect their habitat, etc, etc? Not so much.

I'm out here in the trenches and have been for a long time. People are just as ignorant and/or uncaring as ever, trust me. Last week some island kid went out and killed a stonefish just to show it to the tourists. He charged them a buck a piece to see it. In one day he made $90. That's saying something considering how few tourists we get. This is one incident of many, many, many, many that I've seen here and everywhere.

If I believed putting a few animals in captivity was really helping the rest of them, on a large scale, I'd be all for it.

Enough rant for today, must drink tea.

I'm going to disagree with you. We are of an age, you and I, and I clearly remember a VERY strong difference in outlook from when I was a child.

We lived in Seattle, WA for about 6 months. Some weird short deployment for my dad, and we came along. Anyway, I was five years old at the time. There was a dept store what had a gorilla in a glass enclosure. I remember seeing that gorilla, immediately recognising that he was very, very sad, and complaining to my mom about it. She, being a cool parent, took my complaint seriously. "The big monkey is sad, mommy." That was serious business to me.

Mom took the complaint to the store management, and basically got told off. The "monkey" is happy, he has toys, he's not in danger of being shot in the wild to make ashtrays, etc. My insistence that the "monkey" was sad convinced my mom to not shop at that store anymore. Voting with her wallet, basically.

Fast forward to today. Is there a dept store in a modern nation that would put a gorilla on display like that? Plainly miserable and depressed in a small glassed in enclosure? No, because it wouldn't just be little kids like me hemming up the management. People would be all over them.

Rewinding back to my own childhood again, and think about zoos in the 70's. A zoo was a place with cages, and animals pacing in those cages. It was a big deal when a zoo had a "simulated natural habitat", and it consisted of an inch of dirt over the concrete floor and a dead tree for the animal to rest on. Today? Yeah, there might be places like that, but then there are places like the one I mentioned previously. Their animals are rescues, and are not fit for returning to the wild. The habitats they construct are as close to their natural habitat as possible, and they only show animals that are native to this region. They give a damn about those animals, and actively support conservation, as well as offering the public opportunities to help out, charities, etc.

I'm not saying that everyone is animal conscious, but not everyone is the kid that whacks a fish to show tourists, or tourists paying a buck to see the spectacle.

Frankly, your example argues for my point. Does your island have an aquarium? If not, it might be better than kids killing fish to show tourists.

 

[WriterDom]

I can't wait for the protests if any NFL team has the balls to sign Vick.

 

[Netzach]

I'm going to disagree with you. We are of an age, you and I, and I clearly remember a VERY strong difference in outlook from when I was a child.

We lived in Seattle, WA for about 6 months. Some weird short deployment for my dad, and we came along. Anyway, I was five years old at the time. There was a dept store what had a gorilla in a glass enclosure. I remember seeing that gorilla, immediately recognising that he was very, very sad, and complaining to my mom about it. She, being a cool parent, took my complaint seriously. "The big monkey is sad, mommy." That was serious business to me.

Mom took the complaint to the store management, and basically got told off. The "monkey" is happy, he has toys, he's not in danger of being shot in the wild to make ashtrays, etc. My insistence that the "monkey" was sad convinced my mom to not shop at that store anymore. Voting with her wallet, basically.

Fast forward to today. Is there a dept store in a modern nation that would put a gorilla on display like that? Plainly miserable and depressed in a small glassed in enclosure? No, because it wouldn't just be little kids like me hemming up the management. People would be all over them.

Rewinding back to my own childhood again, and think about zoos in the 70's. A zoo was a place with cages, and animals pacing in those cages. It was a big deal when a zoo had a "simulated natural habitat", and it consisted of an inch of dirt over the concrete floor and a dead tree for the animal to rest on. Today? Yeah, there might be places like that, but then there are places like the one I mentioned previously. Their animals are rescues, and are not fit for returning to the wild. The habitats they construct are as close to their natural habitat as possible, and they only show animals that are native to this region. They give a damn about those animals, and actively support conservation, as well as offering the public opportunities to help out, charities, etc.

I'm not saying that everyone is animal conscious, but not everyone is the kid that whacks a fish to show tourists, or tourists paying a buck to see the spectacle.

Frankly, your example argues for my point. Does your island have an aquarium? If not, it might be better than kids killing fish to show tourists.

My local zoo was the Bronx Zoo, which is like San Diego.

I remember the first time I went to the central park zoo prior to rehab (it's still bad, but not as bad)

I was like waaaahhhhh for hours.

 

[Keroin]

I'm going to disagree with you. We are of an age, you and I, and I clearly remember a VERY strong difference in outlook from when I was a child.

We lived in Seattle, WA for about 6 months. Some weird short deployment for my dad, and we came along. Anyway, I was five years old at the time. There was a dept store what had a gorilla in a glass enclosure. I remember seeing that gorilla, immediately recognising that he was very, very sad, and complaining to my mom about it. She, being a cool parent, took my complaint seriously. "The big monkey is sad, mommy." That was serious business to me.

Mom took the complaint to the store management, and basically got told off. The "monkey" is happy, he has toys, he's not in danger of being shot in the wild to make ashtrays, etc. My insistence that the "monkey" was sad convinced my mom to not shop at that store anymore. Voting with her wallet, basically.

Fast forward to today. Is there a dept store in a modern nation that would put a gorilla on display like that? Plainly miserable and depressed in a small glassed in enclosure? No, because it wouldn't just be little kids like me hemming up the management. People would be all over them.

Rewinding back to my own childhood again, and think about zoos in the 70's. A zoo was a place with cages, and animals pacing in those cages. It was a big deal when a zoo had a "simulated natural habitat", and it consisted of an inch of dirt over the concrete floor and a dead tree for the animal to rest on. Today? Yeah, there might be places like that, but then there are places like the one I mentioned previously. Their animals are rescues, and are not fit for returning to the wild. The habitats they construct are as close to their natural habitat as possible, and they only show animals that are native to this region. They give a damn about those animals, and actively support conservation, as well as offering the public opportunities to help out, charities, etc.

I'm not saying that everyone is animal conscious, but not everyone is the kid that whacks a fish to show tourists, or tourists paying a buck to see the spectacle.

Frankly, your example argues for my point. Does your island have an aquarium? If not, it might be better than kids killing fish to show tourists.

My island does have an aquarium, a huge one - it's called a lagoon. Tourists don't even have to swim to see fish, they can just, literally, stand on the shore and see them. There is no need to pay to see a dead fish here. No need. So, I don't think I prove your argument at all.

My old neighbourhood, in Canada, used to have deer, pheasants, squirrels, you name it. Now it has condos and strip malls. I see green spaces and animal habitat being polluted and mowed down more and more every year. Currently, a small group of us are fighting to save one of the few grizzly habitats left from getting bulldozed for a ski resort. There are already tons of ski resorts in that area, we don't need another ski resort, the grizzlies do need a place to live.

Too many battles.

Outlook and action are two different animals - pun intended. Attitudes may have changed, zoos may be more humane, but the majority of wild animals are not better off today than they were twenty, thirty or forty years ago, they are, actually, much worse off. That is reality. For every step forward, we also take three steps back.

I just got back in from a fabulous snorkel outside the reef. A Hawksbill turtle came and hung out with me, awesome. As I watch that turtle glide by me, every molecule in my heart, my gut and my brain scream that this is where he/she belongs, not in a tank. I rant and I rant and I rant and I sound like a broken record and I sound judgmental and I'm sorry for that but I love these creatures, I love them. I want them to be wild and free.

See, just please don't encourage me. I'm too emotional about this issue.

 

[JMohegan]

Having kept rabbits, mice, birds, and now a snake as pets, I haven't experienced myself as a cruel person. Nor have I experienced them as unhappy, suffering animals. My pets have lived long, healthy lives, often longer than their average life span in the wild, and have demonstrated an interest in us, learned to communicate effectively, and offered real companionship to me, my husband and my kids.

I will say I was not a great keeper of fish. The learning curve in caring for them made the experience a real challenge. And a number of individuals were sacrificed for the sake of my education. That, I admit, was probably cruel.

(and not unlike the experience of many kids with first-year teachers)

The fact that an animal can be taught to please humans, on human terms, does not convince me that the animal itself is pleased. The fact that it can be kept alive for extended periods of time, disease-free, does not convince me that the animal isn't spending its time on earth suffering from emotional misery caused by stress, boredom, or the absence of whatever conditions the animal strongly prefers.

I do believe it's cruel to keep animals in cages. But all by itself, the fact that you have done so doesn't mean I consider you to be more cruel than anyone else.

Factory farms, fur farms, Sea World, circuses, horse-drawn carriages in Central Park. The exploitation of animal misery for human entertainment or sustenance is deeply ingrained as an acceptable part of our culture.

 

[JMohegan]

I wish my brother in law would move next to JM. He hates cats too but shoots every squirrel dead that comes in his yard with a pellet gun. Just for his tail. Throws the squirrel away and when he gets 50 he sends them to Mepps and in return gets free lures.

I read cats kill over a billion birds in the US a year. Who is to say that's not a healthy thing for the bird population as a whole? I know my neighborhood has a lot more birds than cats. That reminds me I need to fill up the bird feeder.

Pellet guns are considered firearms in my county. Within ten minutes of firing his 1st shot, your brother in law would find the police at his front door. This is not a rural environment.

My house sits on an 18,000 sq. ft. lot. That's average for my neighborhood. We don't have multiple acres apiece, like the rural area in which osg grew up. We don't have barns, like BiBunny. We don't have crops or livestock or containers of feed to protect. But neither do we have alleys or restaurants or other establishments attracting rats.

In short, we don't have a need for outside cats.

And owned cats have no nutritive need for killing chipmunks, birds, cottontails, and grasshoppers. Iams, or whatever, is surely waiting for them at home.

To me, in my neighborhood, the difference between squirrels and cats is that the latter are invasive species - like the animal version of English ivy, or kudzu. I'm hardly a fan of squirrels, as you know from your gardening thread. But I would never try to chase them from my yard, because I consider it the squirrels' right to be there.

Hawks are predators that visit my yard frequently. I consider it their right to be there as well. Circle of life, and so on.

That is just the way I see it.

As as aside - I had never heard of Mepps, so I googled and found this. I honestly don't know what to say about that. Literally, I'm speechless.

 

[Netzach]

I'm redneck-compatible enough that I'm just crying because it's a sad story about throwing food away.

 

[JMohegan]

Agreed that seeing an animal on TV is not the same as a wild encounter. Agreed that zoos do have some *limited* benefits to both animals and humans.

Have zoos and aquariums dramatically changed the world view of animals and our need to protect their habitat, etc, etc? Not so much.

I'm out here in the trenches and have been for a long time. People are just as ignorant and/or uncaring as ever, trust me. Last week some island kid went out and killed a stonefish just to show it to the tourists. He charged them a buck a piece to see it. In one day he made $90. That's saying something considering how few tourists we get. This is one incident of many, many, many, many that I've seen here and everywhere.

If I believed putting a few animals in captivity was really helping the rest of them, on a large scale, I'd be all for it.

Enough rant for today, must drink tea.

I share your perspective on this.

There is an enormous and exceedingly lovely park in Richmond, called Maymont. Osg told me about it before I went. Part of the land is set aside as a sanctuary for native animals of Virginia.

Both the black bear and fox exhibits were expansive, natural settings. Yet the animals paced, back and forth, back and forth, same spot, over and over, incessantly. The ranger said they were not waiting to be fed; this is classic "I'm going insane in confinement" behavior.

If zoos had taught us respect for elephants, there would be no elephants in circuses, 2009.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm redneck-compatible enough that I'm just crying because it's a sad story about throwing food away.

People eat squirrel? What does it taste like?

 

[ownedsubgal]

People eat squirrel? What does it taste like?

chewy. not very good, imo. our high school archaeology teacher shot and skinned one, then skewered it and set it to bbq over a handmade fire. we all had to taste. the point was to show us a typical diet for confederate soldiers during the War.

please don't ask what that had to do with archaeology, it was Virginia, lol.

 

[JMohegan]

chewy. not very good, imo. our high school archaeology teacher shot and skinned one, then skewered it and set it to bbq over a handmade fire. we all had to taste. the point was to show us a typical diet for confederate soldiers during the War.

please don't ask what that had to do with archaeology, it was Virginia, lol.

*chuckling here*

Maybe I should have asked.... Do non-starving people eat squirrel? Is it considered regular food that gets hunted, like wild turkey or deer or pheasant?

 

[intothewoods]

Why don't people just spay or neuter their cats? Surely that would help with the overpopulation.

I am not clicking on WD's link if it's that bad. I can't handle that damn commercial with Sarah McLaughlin.

My friend shot a squirrel in her backyard and fed it to her family for dinner. That made me speechless.

 

[ownedsubgal]

*chuckling here*

Maybe I should have asked.... Do non-starving people eat squirrel? Is it considered regular food that gets hunted, like wild turkey or deer or pheasant?

yes, definitely. regular but mostly poor people eat squirrel. lots of folks find it very tasty especially in stew form. i had more countrified, less financially stable relatives who regularly hunted squirrel and on a successful day would have 8 or 10 skinned and strung up on the clothesline.

 

[Netzach]

It's subjective. I have not had it, personally. T's sung its praises often. I hope to try it at some point, as much as I think they're the cutest fuzziest things alive. Apparently things that eat acorns can taste of acorn and some people like that flavor. I don't think they were starving, I think it was an honest preference. They were definitely rural poor-ish though.

I find hunting and eating squirrels much less objectionable than raising chicken-in-a-crate. I could probably eat squirrel with fewer guilt feelings than eating a wild turkey, I mean the damn things are JUST coming back from the endangered lists.

 

[JMohegan]

Why don't people just spay or neuter their cats? Surely that would help with the overpopulation.

I am not clicking on WD's link if it's that bad. I can't handle that damn commercial with Sarah McLaughlin.

My friend shot a squirrel in her backyard and fed it to her family for dinner. That made me speechless.

It's a commercial site, for a company that makes lures.

"We recycle... but we don't want your old aluminum cans or plastic soda bottles. We do, however, want your squirrel tails. We need them to create hand-tied dressed hooks that do a great job catching fish. We know this for a fact because, here at Mepps, we've been recycling squirrel tails for about a half a century, and we recycle more of them than anyone else. This makes us some kind of recycling pioneer and we're proud of it."


Knowing that people eat squirrel makes that more comprehensible.

 

[Netzach]

It's a commercial site, for a company that makes lures.

"We recycle... but we don't want your old aluminum cans or plastic soda bottles. We do, however, want your squirrel tails. We need them to create hand-tied dressed hooks that do a great job catching fish. We know this for a fact because, here at Mepps, we've been recycling squirrel tails for about a half a century, and we recycle more of them than anyone else. This makes us some kind of recycling pioneer and we're proud of it."


Knowing that people eat squirrel makes that more comprehensible.

The idea of it being some kind of green recycling thing is really twisted to me - didn't we used to call that "all the parts of the buffalo" or something?

 

[JMohegan]

yes, definitely. regular but mostly poor people eat squirrel. lots of folks find it very tasty especially in stew form. i had more countrified, less financially stable relatives who regularly hunted squirrel and on a successful day would have 8 or 10 skinned and strung up on the clothesline.

Thank you.

It's subjective. I have not had it, personally. T's sung its praises often. I hope to try it at some point, as much as I think they're the cutest fuzziest things alive. Apparently things that eat acorns can taste of acorn and some people like that flavor. I don't think they were starving, I think it was an honest preference. They were definitely rural poor-ish though.

I find hunting and eating squirrels much less objectionable than raising chicken-in-a-crate.

Hunting and eating *anything* is the most humane way to get dinner. (Assuming the prey is killed quickly, and the species not endangered.)