House cats - killers?

[eastern sun]

No, I get that. I'm all for facilities that *genuinely* are set up to protect and rehabilitate wild animals. Rescued animals that can no longer function in the wild? Torn. Education? No. Go rent Blue Planet or something.

I don't like to get ranting because this is my world, my experience and I hate finger wagging and I know that's how it always ends up with me.

Domestic cats and dogs chose to be with us and that's fantastic. As for everything else, it's not about enhancing the animal's life or forming a human-animal bond, for me. I like things to be where they naturally belong and to just *be*, whether I get to be a part of it or not. Nature will always be more cruel than domesticity but it is natural, and I'm all for that. If I wanted to get really metaphysical and all that...I guess I just feel I have no right to inflict my will on other creatures purely for my enjoyment. Survival, fine. Pleasure, no.

You might hate me for saying this, Keroin. But I think we're part of the natural world. Even these giant cities are part of nature. It's the fact that we think we're separate that's the problem.

 

[eastern sun]

Regarding the topic of the thread, I was walking in the park the other day, and came round the corner to see a feral kitten not more than six to eight weeks old chewing the head off of a young rat. It was very impressive.

 

[Recidiva]

Hey! My son was just diagnosed with Asperger's.

It was his father who taught me how to sit with animals, though. We were in the jungle in Guatamala, and everyone was tramping around, climbing the ruins, taking pictures, making noise, and he just chose a spot in the park to sit. At first, I thought it was kind of boring. But. . . there were animals everywhere. Jaguarundi in the trees, coatimundi on the ground, spider monkeys, howlers, birds. It was incredible. We even got to watch huge vultures do a mating dance.

We came back to the United States, and lo and behold, there were just as many animals here. I just didn't know how to see them before.

I used to do that for hours and hours and days and days when I was a kid. Just sit in the forest and watch. I do love that feeling. We lived right on the edge of a state park and I'd go sit in the woods by some running water and watch it all come and go.

My parents tell about a story when I decided I wanted a chipmunk to eat from my hand and I was about seven. I sat outside with corn in my hand, not moving, for hours at a time until one of them was sitting in my hand eating. Then I just let it eat and then go away.

I have less time now and I'm in a much more suburban environment with a fenced garden and not as much opportunity, but I do love the view when nature comes to visit.

My son will always see the squirrel, bird or frog first, though. Always. He was one of the best spotters of wildlife on our recent trip to Alaska. He was pointing out bald eagles, caribou, moose and Dall sheep to a busload of adults trying to find them at the same time.

I hope you and your son navigate your way through his diagnosis.

 

[WriterDom]

I wish my brother in law would move next to JM. He hates cats too but shoots every squirrel dead that comes in his yard with a pellet gun. Just for his tail. Throws the squirrel away and when he gets 50 he sends them to Mepps and in return gets free lures.

I read cats kill over a billion birds in the US a year. Who is to say that's not a healthy thing for the bird population as a whole? I know my neighborhood has a lot more birds than cats. That reminds me I need to fill up the bird feeder.

 

[Recidiva]

I wish my brother in law would move next to JM. He hates cats too but shoots every squirrel dead that comes in his yard with a pellet gun. Just for his tail. Throws the squirrel away and when he gets 50 he sends them to Mepps and in return gets free lures.

I read cats kill over a billion birds in the US a year. Who is to say that's not a healthy thing for the bird population as a whole? I know my neighborhood has a lot more birds than cats. That reminds me I need to fill up the bird feeder.

I'm bummed I can't keep a decent bird feeder down here.

I have tons of flowers so we get lots of birds, hummingbirds and migrating birds alike.

But every time I try to put up a feeder something goes wrong. I gave up after trying several different types of feeder types and then trying lots of different seeds that birds ignored.

Finally when the birdfeeder was left out in the Florida heat and humidity for long enough, the seeds all sprouted out the side and I had a moldy planter that I figured was more of a health hazard than a treat for local wildlife.

 

[Netzach]

I read cats kill over a billion birds in the US a year. Who is to say that's not a healthy thing for the bird population as a whole?

Factual, it's not merely some asshole's opinion, particularly a problem in the British Isles.

There's nothing good about disappearing passerine songbirds, unless you want the tweet of the birds at dawn to be limited to the caw of crows and the honk of geese.

 

[jockdom]

Factual, it's not merely some asshole's opinion, particularly a problem in the British Isles.

There's nothing good about disappearing passerine songbirds, unless you want the tweet of the birds at dawn to be limited to the caw of crows and the honk of geese.

Nods'tis the truth. I love to spend my lunch half hour sitting on the wall doing a bit of ornothology, most relaxing.

The wifey next door has four or five cats plus there are quite a few others in the area, there have been a few times when i have thought a kid or woman was screaming only to find out it was the cats mating or scraping.

 

[WriterDom]

I'm bummed I can't keep a decent bird feeder down here.

I have tons of flowers so we get lots of birds, hummingbirds and migrating birds alike.

But every time I try to put up a feeder something goes wrong. I gave up after trying several different types of feeder types and then trying lots of different seeds that birds ignored.

Finally when the birdfeeder was left out in the Florida heat and humidity for long enough, the seeds all sprouted out the side and I had a moldy planter that I figured was more of a health hazard than a treat for local wildlife.

Mine is just a plastic tube type with three openings. It takes the birds a day or two to find it if I stop but they can eat about a tube a day once they get going. I found a 25 pound bag of sunflowers at the hardware store pretty cheap. I like the straight sunflower better then the mixed seeds. The cardinals love it. And the finches and titmice.

Robins and Thrashers never go to feeders. They must be meat eaters.

 

[Keroin]

You might hate me for saying this, Keroin. But I think we're part of the natural world. Even these giant cities are part of nature. It's the fact that we think we're separate that's the problem.

Why would I hate you for that? That's your belief and your experience. Mine is different, that's cool.

(This is why I try not to rant).

Let me give you a peek inside my brain for a moment...

I was just outside filling my water bottle at the drinking water tap. There were about three Lorikeets flying around, singing, nibbling at the coconut buds. Lorikeets resemble very tiny parrots and they're cute as the dickens. I watch them all the time here, flying from tree to tree, occasionally swinging on the palm leaves, grooming each other, singing, (sometimes I sing with them), etc. They are definitely small enough to fit in a cage and live in a house/apartment, and I know, somewhere, some probably are, but I like them where they are, doing what they do. I like them in their natural habitat. The only reason I can think of for putting them in captivity would be for my pleasure and, *to me*, that would just be arrogant. When I leave here, I may never see another Lorikeet as long as I live but that's OK. They are, they exist, they live their birdy lives. Let it be, let it be, etc.

But that's just me. Everyone has their own way to interact with nature. I have to live the way that helps me sleep well at night, that's all. Just me.

 

[Recidiva]

Mine is just a plastic tube type with three openings. It takes the birds a day or two to find it if I stop but they can eat about a tube a day once they get going. I found a 25 pound bag of sunflowers at the hardware store pretty cheap. I like the straight sunflower better then the mixed seeds. The cardinals love it. And the finches and titmice.

Robins and Thrashers never go to feeders. They must be meat eaters.

I did that when I lived in New Jersey and Massachusetts.

Down here I've tried the niger seed, sunflower seed, and several "regional" mixes.

Might just be that the yard has too many other yummies about. I see lots of birds, just never at the feeder. But they love my herb garden, my flower garden, shrimp plant and hibiscus. I also have two citrus trees that are always crawling with bugs like fruit flies and really freaky crablike spiders:

http://www.rochedalss.eq.edu.au/crabspi.jpg

They're probably just more entertained by the other stuff. Which isn't bad.

I've got a pretty good habitat back there, only lacking for a water source, but in Florida that also takes a lot of maintenance and is a big mosquito risk, standing water is a no no.

 

[BiBunny]

I have two cats who are encouraged to kill. Oh, the horror!

They're barn cats. They live on our small acreage of land and kill everything they can. They're also the most languid and loving creatures to humans you can imagine.

Barns attract all kinds of critters. Mice, rats, moles, possums, coons, snakes, God knows what. Most of these things eat horse feed, except the snakes, and they're there for the small critters. Even if you keep the majority of the feed in large, sealed plastic containers (and we do), the parts that horses inevitably drop still attract pests.

Mice and rats are well-known for carrying disease. Possums carry a disease that is devastating to horses. Try to get rid of all the rats in a barn with poison and see what happens. It won't kill most of them, and the ones who do die invariably perish in a horse's water bucket. Ugh. *Shudder*

We used to have a king snake at our barn, too. We found him once in the creek, doing in a rattlesnake. Before we saw him, we wondered why we didn't have more snakes at our barn and on our property. We'd catch sight of him every now and then for several years.

Alas, I think our poor friend is no more. We haven't seen him in awhile, and we have started seeing more and more snakes around the barn.

That's where the cats come in. They keep the smaller vermin killed off or scared off. They aren't big enough or mean enough to kill possums or coons, usually, but the little bastards will stay away after a fight or two. One of the cats has even killed a copperhead. Go, Marshmallow!

I think they're very useful and helpful. I also have an indoor cat, but he never goes outside, as he was hit by a car as a kitten and has more than just a little bit of brain damage. Bless his heart, he'd probably get himself hurt or killed in heartbeat if he were to venture out.

I can say unequivocally that if I saw anyone throwing rocks at my cats, who generally stay at or around our barn, though they occasionally wander around a bit, that person would answer to me.

I have far more problems with people whose dogs run around without leashes, shit on everything, chase my horses, and bite people. Dogs pose a much larger risk to people and animals due to their sheer size alone. If I can train a 1,000+ pound animal to behave, what the fuck is dog owners' problems?

 

[Netzach]

Mine is just a plastic tube type with three openings. It takes the birds a day or two to find it if I stop but they can eat about a tube a day once they get going. I found a 25 pound bag of sunflowers at the hardware store pretty cheap. I like the straight sunflower better then the mixed seeds. The cardinals love it. And the finches and titmice.

Robins and Thrashers never go to feeders. They must be meat eaters.

Worms. Thrashers are thus named because you'll find em whipping worms to death.

 

[eastern sun]

Why would I hate you for that? That's your belief and your experience. Mine is different, that's cool.

(This is why I try not to rant).

Let me give you a peek inside my brain for a moment...

I was just outside filling my water bottle at the drinking water tap. There were about three Lorikeets flying around, singing, nibbling at the coconut buds. Lorikeets resemble very tiny parrots and they're cute as the dickens. I watch them all the time here, flying from tree to tree, occasionally swinging on the palm leaves, grooming each other, singing, (sometimes I sing with them), etc. They are definitely small enough to fit in a cage and live in a house/apartment, and I know, somewhere, some probably are, but I like them where they are, doing what they do. I like them in their natural habitat. The only reason I can think of for putting them in captivity would be for my pleasure and, *to me*, that would just be arrogant. When I leave here, I may never see another Lorikeet as long as I live but that's OK. They are, they exist, they live their birdy lives. Let it be, let it be, etc.

But that's just me. Everyone has their own way to interact with nature. I have to live the way that helps me sleep well at night, that's all. Just me.

I love seeing animals in their natural habitat. And, thankfully, there are flocks of escaped parrots living here in NYC, behaving exactly the way I have seen them behave in Central America.

But, because I live in a big city, and my children are being raised here, the only snake we're going to get to know intimately is the one in my daughter's room. If she never experiences animals (and there are plenty of city kids who don't and who are terrified of animals), she would be much more likely to grow up to be yet another human interested in developing the wild places that are left into "fun zones."

What if all us New Yorkers came down to your beautiful island? We'd ruin it forever.

 

[Keroin]

I love seeing animals in their natural habitat. And, thankfully, there are flocks of escaped parrots living here in NYC, behaving exactly the way I have seen them behave in Central America.

But, because I live in a big city, and my children are being raised here, the only snake we're going to get to know intimately is the one in my daughter's room. If she never experiences animals (and there are plenty of city kids who don't and who are terrified of animals), she would be much more likely to grow up to be yet another human interested in developing the wild places that are left into "fun zones."

What if all us New Yorkers came down to your beautiful island? We'd ruin it forever.

The island has a very strict "No New Yorker" policy, for that very reason.

Seriously, I'll be frank, I've heard every argument under the sun, regarding wild animals in captivity, and none have changed my mind. This doesn't make me right and everyone else wrong, it's just how I see the world and how I choose to live. (I choose not to live in cities for a reason).

Everyone has their "thing", this is mine. It makes me emotional and, at times, irrational, so really it's best if I zip my lips. I'll use my energy to fight the RL battles right here in front of me, (there are no shortage of those), because I have no desire to make the good people of Lit feel as if I'm casting the Great Eye of Keroin's Judgment upon them, when I'm not.

 

[WriterDom]

I play with my snake too much. Wish someone else would.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I play with my snake too much. Wish someone else would.

*snort!*

 

[graceanne]

Depends on the animal.

My best friend brought me a rat, once, that had spent the last three months in a cage with a snake. The way he survived was sitting on the snakes head whenever the snake decided to eat him. His name was Lucky, but we renamed him Einstein.

If you took Einstein out of his cage he would RUN back into it. That poor guy had PTSD. It was months before he'd come to the bars for food and pets. But you did NOT want to take him out of his cage.

Another situation is the rat I have right now. He's also got PTSD. Whoever originally owned him thought it would be funny to set him loose in the highschool in between periods. My sister narrowly saved him from a bunch of teenage boys who wanted to 'STOMP THE RAT, DUDE!'. He went from there to the humane society (where my Mom works), and the vet there decided to see if a rat could survive getting fixed. Then people from the shelter would go buy and bang on his cage 'hey rat!'. My mom finally put his cage in her office, and then took him home with her. Then she talked me into taking him.

I know, I'm a sucker. So does she, evidently. *sigh*

He, also, won't leave his cage. I could leave all the doors open and the most he'll do is peek out to see if I have a treat for him. The only way I can clean his cage is to move him to another cage while I'm doing it. Being out of his cage FREAKS HIM OUT. I'm always afraid he's gonna have a heart attack.

 

[Recidiva]

Depends on the animal.

My best friend brought me a rat, once, that had spent the last three months in a cage with a snake. The way he survived was sitting on the snakes head whenever the snake decided to eat him. His name was Lucky, but we renamed him Einstein.

If you took Einstein out of his cage he would RUN back into it. That poor guy had PTSD. It was months before he'd come to the bars for food and pets. But you did NOT want to take him out of his cage.

Another situation is the rat I have right now. He's also got PTSD. Whoever originally owned him thought it would be funny to set him loose in the highschool in between periods. My sister narrowly saved him from a bunch of teenage boys who wanted to 'STOMP THE RAT, DUDE!'. He went from there to the humane society (where my Mom works), and the vet there decided to see if a rat could survive getting fixed. Then people from the shelter would go buy and bang on his cage 'hey rat!'. My mom finally put his cage in her office, and then took him home with her. Then she talked me into taking him.

I know, I'm a sucker. So does she, evidently. *sigh*

He, also, won't leave his cage. I could leave all the doors open and the most he'll do is peek out to see if I have a treat for him. The only way I can clean his cage is to move him to another cage while I'm doing it. Being out of his cage FREAKS HIM OUT. I'm always afraid he's gonna have a heart attack.

That's definitely a rescued animal.

I think rats are also pretty smart. They're the opposite of domesticated, they've had to outwit and outlast and outbreed humans determined to kill them for a long time while they scavenged.

Unlike lots of other domesticated animals that got dumber over millenia.

An exception might be pigs, that if they get loose, they grow tusks and start scaring people. Go pigs!

Chickens are hopeless. There's no such thing as a feral chicken, and anything that as a baby you have to dunk their face in the food or they won't find it, is starting out on shaky ground.

 

[Shankara20]

I play with my snake too much. Wish someone else would.

Try Shank's 21 Day No Wank self-help cure. I'll send you the How-not-to book for only $19.99 (+shipping and handling)

 

[WriterDom]

Try Shank's 21 Day No Wank self-help cure. I'll send you the How-not-to book for only $19.99 (+shipping and handling)

I like to keep my pipes pretty clean. Don't use it you lose it. I can easily cum 15 times in weekend with a partner.

 

[Homburg]

Actually, no. Neither putting out poison nor chasing animals off are illegal, in your own yard.

Maybe in your area. Here, if you pelt animals of any sort with rocks, you can, and should, get popped for animal cruelty. Kids do that sort of shit and we yell at them. Adults should be held to a higher legal standard.

And purposefully poisoning house pets will likewise cause Officer Friendly to get unhappy.

Your local ordnances may vary, but everywhere I've lived, poisoning with the intent of getting domesticated animals dead is a crime. Hell, poisoning with the intent of getting vermin and having somebody's pet get dead will get you popped, or at least sued, for negligence.

As I said earlier on the thread, I catch any unowned cats that I see, and take them to the shelter.

This sort of behaviour I'm for, and I've done similarly in the past.

I don't see cats who roam outside as adorable, cuddly fluffballs; I see them as the ruthless killers that they actually are.

But dogs, which are just as much the predator, are not? Maybe you've been around nothing but happy hyper-trained triggerdogs, I dunno. I've known PLENTY of dogs that would kill anything small and furry and foodish if allowed. My friend's super-friendly, happy, well-trained rescue mutt has a switch in his doggy brain that turns off all of that when a squirrel is nearby. It happens. And I've known otherwise good dogs that had a thing for small birds, and would snatch them clean out of the air. Both the bird and squirrel responses in these dogs were impossible to train out of them.

All I see here is cat antipathy being obfuscated by some sort of "Save The Voles" verbage.

To my knowledge, a dog has never killed anything in any of the yards in which I've ever lived.

I'd be willing to bet money that it has happened. Fortunately for both of us, neither can prove the point. Statistically, mine is more of a safe bet.

I play catch with neighborhood kids often. They love to watch me practice archery and swing my whip.

I'd be more concerned with how often they see you throw rocks at the neighbourhood cats.

--

On other notes...

Snakes - I have a friend that does snake rescue. He is so good at it that his area SPCA just calls him when they get one. They know he'll do a better job caring for it. He rehabs the snakes he gets and then uses them for reptile outreach and education. He's positively amazing to watch too. And he knows the snakes incredibly well, and knows which ones are more, er, out-going. Okay, out-going is not really the right word. Tolerant might be a better choice. Though he has had snakes that really enjoyed being handled, and responded well to people in general. Not affectionate per se, but they were docile, and climbed on people, hung out calmly, etc. If that is not the snake being okay with the people, I can't say what else to call it.

Rats - Recidiva nailed it when she said they were the opposite of domesticated, but that does not mean they are incompatible. Rats can make really fantastic pets, and that sort obviously enjoys interacting with humans. I know a number of rats that are frequently out of their cages, allowed to run around, very social, etc. Same with properly bred ferrets. They actively enjoy the interaction, and have cages for their own piece of mind. Most pet ferrets I know sleep in their cages, and are put in them to keep them from getting stepped on when things are active in the house.

Rabbits - Again, I know people that have had rabbits that were litter-box trained, and had free run of the house. They weren't let outside because, well, there were dogs and cats in the neighbourhood. The pet breed bunnies are domesticated pets.

Hamsters - By and large captives. I've owned hamsters. Exactly one of them was happy to be held, and would seek me out. The rest were looking to escape. *shrug* I was a kid and didn't know better. Mice are generally the same way. Some gerbils are very much pets though.

Birds - Captives. Some very, very smart birds seem to be completely fine with their circumstances, and don't want to get out. BUT, and this is a big but, they had a wing clipped at a young age, and don't know any better. So it is ignorant happiness.

Zoos - I'm torn here. Some zoos are flat despicable, and I'm not even remotely going to defend the, but many have become much better places for the animals inside. Yes, it is unnatural. Yes, it is captivity. BUT, and this is another one of the those big buts, I can see a worth to the education factor.

It is one thing to see an animal on TV, and another entirely to see it in person. While I sympathise with you, Keroin, and agree that the best way to experience that animal is in its' natural habitat, most of us will never get out to that habitat. And most of those animals will do everything they can to avoid us if we do get out there. And this doesn't even touch on how dangerous it could be to meet said animal in its' own range.

But when I take my kids to the Virginia Living Museum, and they get to see some of the incredible wildlife we have in this area, they have a very powerful lesson on what these creatures are and why they need to be protected. It might suck for the individual animal in question, but what sort of positive impact is that critter having on the human populace that spends so much time and effort and money encroaching on his habitat?

Education, while onerous perhaps for the individual animal, has worth. If one person a day walks away convinced that this species needs protecting, it may well be worth it.

 

[STEELCHICK001]

i have 4 cats 2 dogs a parrot and a big gold fish, the onl;y one i worry about is the fish.

 

[Shankara20]

I like to keep my pipes pretty clean. Don't use it you lose it. I can easily cum 15 times in weekend with a partner.

I don't count each spurt as an individualized "cum", but to each his own....

 

[satindesire]

Maybe in your area. Here, if you pelt animals of any sort with rocks, you can, and should, get popped for animal cruelty. Kids do that sort of shit and we yell at them. Adults should be held to a higher legal standard.

As I said before, I don't understand how JM could say that owning and caring for, and LOVING, a pet could be more cruel than poisoning one to death. That logic is completely lost on me.

 

[Netzach]

Snipped quote to say to Hommie, my doggie experience jives with yours. I'm not a dog owner, but the cats/dogs things is like bisexuality for me, I don't dislike either enough to be a moron about it or not want to own one given the right circumstances. They're both freaking animals and carnivores and if you're trained one to be the bunny whisperer, consider yourself very lucky, don't just sit back and think it's your diligence alone that gets you that.

The percentage of dogs who will drop a live, caught duck, in their mouths, is extremely small - even those bred and trained perfectly. The ducks and geese and egrets by the lake, which happen to be my favorite wildlife invaders, have nothing to fear from cats, who don't tend to go to the beach on weekends.