How did you become a Feminist?

[oggbashan]

Re: manholes again

I talked with a student who'd been in London on some sort of study-abroad thing for a number of months.

She came out of American university, and she was a not-particularly-virulent feminist, but it struck her very odd over there that her talk fell on deaf ears so much of the time.

"E's my man, enny? E've a right to bash me abaht." That's what one London woman told her at a bus stop.

I love the manhole thing. Do you still also use beware with a direct object?

cantdog

Do you mean "Beware trains"? If so, yes. Some of the signs were put up in the 19th century. The warning is still valid so why change the signs.

Locally we have had a woman as Lord Mayor, as Sheriff, innumerable women as Chairmen of organisations. We do have Police Officers, no longer Policemen and Policewomen. Women are Firemen, Lifeboatmen etc. We know what we mean - women doing the same job as a man AND getting exactly the same pay.

We even have a few men as Midwives. Why not?

Og

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: manholes again

. . . We even have a few men as Midwives. Why not?

Og

You had me until the end, Og.

My midwife and my OB/GYN happen to be female. There are many wonderfully competent male doctors, of course, but for something as involved as labor and delivery (with as much psychological work as physical work) I chose to have medical professionals who had birthed children themselves.

Just my own preference, of course, as my hubby chooses a male doctor for his oh-so-fun guy checkups. (Would a female doctor truly understand any potential problems with his dick? I mean, honestly?)

OK - sorry for the off-topic post. Back to your regularly scheduled Thread.

 

[Black Tulip]

Re: Re: Re: manholes again

You had me until the end, Og.

My midwife and my OB/GYN happen to be female. There are many wonderfully competent male doctors, of course, but for something as involved as labor and delivery (with as much psychological work as physical work) I chose to have medical professionals who had birthed children themselves.

Just my own preference, of course, as my hubby chooses a male doctor for his oh-so-fun guy checkups. (Would a female doctor truly understand any potential problems with his dick? I mean, honestly?)

OK - sorry for the off-topic post. Back to your regularly scheduled Thread.

Um, Sweetsubsarahh, I think it is entirely on topic. Would you search for a doctor who has had cancer him- or herself? Or one who had experienced a broken leg?

Not wanting to jump on your case, so please do not take this personal. But your post does represent part of the problem with "emancipation". The struggle for equality for all people.

If women can choose whatever profession they like, than the same goes for men. I happen to know a male "midwife", one of my nephews used to be one. In Dutch the word has changed into something like delivery-person, just like the word for nurse no longer is used because it was gender specific. Both profession are no longer solely female territory. The same applies to teachers in kindergarten.

 

[Guest]

No, you misunderstand -

I said this was my preference, and also that of my husband.

That choice doesn't reflect all people, nor should it. And it has nothing to do with emancipation.

Do I worry if my children have a male or female teacher? Do I care about the sex of my boss? My car mechanic? Whoever installs my carpet? Waits my table? My vet? My pharmacist? My grocer?

Of course not.

But to have someone with me during the long hours of labor and delivery? I wanted a medical person who had actually experienced birthing contractions. I just felt more comfortable relating to them. That's all.

Please don't take my opinion personally - it certainly wasn't meant that way.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: manholes again

Um, Sweetsubsarahh, I think it is entirely on topic. Would you search for a doctor who has had cancer him- or herself? Or one who had experienced a broken leg?

Tulip, I get the point of the rest of your post, but here I'm with Sarahh merely on a personal level. I do prefer a female ob/gyn simply because she can understand how my female body parts work better than a man. I think women know their bodies better than men know theirs, we grow into them painfully, literally, and learn to live with the pain. For my births it did not matter so much as the female nurses I had did most of the labor-coaching work (the male doctor came in at the very end to 'catch' the baby).

As to an oncologist, if I had to make the many choices re. treatment that a cancer patient needs, e.g., choosing the best poison, I would certainly better trust a person who had been through radiation- or chemotherapy themselves. Re. trust I don't mean whether they know their medicine, but at that level of treatment more than a knowledge of pharmacology enters into the whole decision. Here too it might not matter the gender of the doctor or even the type of cancer he or she had endured.

These are just a couple of examples for me that are not based on any theory (feminist, gender, political), just common sense for me. I realize the thinking will not apply to all such matters.

Perdita

 

[cantdog]

male nurses and whatnot

It is routine to use female nurses for rape exams, too. Equality goes only so far.

An empathetic and experienced person is still better than a person of boiled univolvement of any gender, even with six kids, but it's probably a good rule of thumb.

If a person requires a penis to do a job, equality doesn't enter into it. Womb ditto. I think non-germane but a worthy aside.

As a rule of thumb. Male midwives are out there, and I assume they wouldn't be in the biz without a lot of interest and commitment. Rules of thumb are not stone, and they do practice. Not for you they don't, and it's surely your choice.

 

[Black Tulip]

Re: Re: Re: Re: manholes again

Not wanting to jump on your case, so please do not take this personal. But your post does represent part of the problem with "emancipation". The struggle for equality for all people.

 

[oggbashan]

Sexual equality by law

We have a Sex Discrimination Act.

It is illegal for me, as an employer, to specify that I will only employ a man (or only a woman) for a job UNLESS I can show that the employee's sex is necessary for that job.

I cannot pay different rates for men and women.

Rape counselling is one area where the sex of the counsellor can be specified. Men are raped too but there are very few male rape counsellors.

Doctors practising obstetrics can be male of female. Why not male midwives? There are very few of them and they face prejudice - I'm not surprised. They are trained exactly the same. Equality is not one way only.

A brothel claimed that the sex of the employees was relevant. Their case was upheld.

Og

Edited for PS: Some religious believers, including Muslims, cannot accept male staff treating women or women staff treating men. It produces difficulties in the National Health Service which tries to adopt a compromise when possible. Why should YOUR beliefs affect MY competence? 'Your' and 'My' in that last sentence could be male or female.

 

[Guest]

The Midwife who delivered my first baby was a childless woman. She didn't have a clue what it actually felt like to give birth (by her own admission), but she was a damn fine midwife.

In my opinion, as a midwife, this pretty much puts her on a par with a male midwife.

Why do I think this?

A male midwife delivered my second baby - he was even better than the first midwife (who I classed as "damn fine"). He was very calm and level headed and neither I, nor my husband, had any qualms about him being a man. To be completely honest, at the time, it never even entered my head that the situtation was odd or wrong.

My male cousin is a nurse. His wife is a doctor.

Lou

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Choose a gynecologist?

I call the medical center, get an appointment, go there, and accept whatever doctor I get. I usually get women. I can't remember ever having a male gynecologist.

Would I be freaked out by one? Never thought about it. If it's a dirty old man - definitely. A cute young guy - no, not really. Would I ask for a woman doctor? Probably not. A doctor's a doctor. And unless he's sleazy, I'll accept a doctor of either gender.

They both have a medical education, right?

 

[cantdog]

gender issues

We will not have a Sex Discrimination Act. Such a thing could occur state-by-state, but the fundamentalists set the agenda to a great extent now, and it would not now happen nationally or even, I'm afraid, in most states.

Look how difficult and uphill the ERA has been. I envy you that. On the other hand, you could use a Freedom of the Press Act to kill the Official Secrets Act. You can have our First Amendment! We're not using it for anything right now!

cantdog

 

[Guest]

Interesting -

Never thought my smart-ass response to Og's post would have stirred this up.

It is because of the emerging equity in job fields that we now have more female doctors and practicing midwives in the United States. (Midwives of any gender are still in the minority in this country, unfortunately.)

It is because of emancipation that I am even allowed to have a choice. Because of the availability of health information I can research the backgrounds of my health care professionals and choose the best for me and for my family.

My mistake here was to be so bold to actually post about my own personal choice. I've had terrific doctors and horrible doctors, caring and uncaring, professional and unprofessional, male and female. I think if it is possible for us patients, we usually choose to go back to the most competent and caring physicians we can. We choose (especially for intimate or invasive procedures) to use a health care professional we can be comfortable with, male or female. And that choice will be different for everyone, but we damn well better be allowed to make it.

That's what equity is about.

 

[Belegon]

SweetSubSarah

I don't think it was a mistake, look at the way you've moved the conversation along. Things were degenerating into argumentative and now there is more real exchange of ideas. Well done!

One of my frat brothers is a nurse in Las Vegas and has helped in deliveries, although I would not say he is well-versed enough to be given the status of a midwive.

"Fraternity" is on it's way to becoming less gender specific. There are several non-gender specific organizations in modern colleges that are being called "fraternities". All of them I know of are of the professional or service type as oppossed to the purely social and more traditional greek organizations. But no one bats an eye at the mixed genders in an organization that is using a gender-based title.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: manholes again

I think when it comes to *any* doctor, each of us should choose someone we feel comfortable with- not what is PC. Some women feel more comfortable with a female ob/gyn and some feel more comfortable with a male. As long as neither are denied the education and right to practice, we will have the choice that fits us best.

For myself, male or female, I'd certainly prefer to have a pediatrician who has kids of his/her own over one who didn't. If I had my druthers on an ob/gyn- I'd choose much differently than most women I know and choose a 'traditional doctor' -ie. an old man who I could think of as a doctor rather than as a person poking around down there. Having Noah Wile as a gynocolgist is my idea of a nightmare!

Tulip, I get the point of the rest of your post, but here I'm with Sarahh merely on a personal level. I do prefer a female ob/gyn simply because she can understand how my female body parts work better than a man. I think women know their bodies better than men know theirs, we grow into them painfully, literally, and learn to live with the pain. For my births it did not matter so much as the female nurses I had did most of the labor-coaching work (the male doctor came in at the very end to 'catch' the baby).

As to an oncologist, if I had to make the many choices re. treatment that a cancer patient needs, e.g., choosing the best poison, I would certainly better trust a person who had been through radiation- or chemotherapy themselves. Re. trust I don't mean whether they know their medicine, but at that level of treatment more than a knowledge of pharmacology enters into the whole decision. Here too it might not matter the gender of the doctor or even the type of cancer he or she had endured.

These are just a couple of examples for me that are not based on any theory (feminist, gender, political), just common sense for me. I realize the thinking will not apply to all such matters.

Perdita

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: manholes again

Having Noah Wile as a gynocolgist is my idea of a nightmare!

That made me laugh loud and hard. Thanks.

Perdita

 

[sweetnpetite]

for dita

That made me laugh loud and hard. Thanks.

Perdita

When I was pregnant, I saw a female doc several times in a row (health dept. you get who you get) and hadn't even had to take off my clothes. then they institited this new screaning that required both vaginal and anal swabbing. So ick right off the bat. I get undressed and get under the paper sheet and in walks this young fairly cute male doc. (cutest red-headed guy I've met yet) MY first immediate thought was "YOU have got to be kidding!"

A breast exam by a cute doc would probably be ok though

 

[Gary Chambers]

Is this feminism?

These days I work on the national help desk of a big high speed ISP. The call centre is located in a dirty little cow town in the interior of British Columbia. It's called Kamloops, and at one time its paper mill used to stink so bad you could smell it ten miles away. It doesn't smell much anymore, but it's still a one horse town with not much going on unless you consider getting drunk every Friday night the key to a meaningful life. So a large call centre providing tech help across the entire U.S.A. obviously attracts all kinds of employees; people who might otherwise seldom be seen outside their homes.

There's a lady who works there. I think she probably came from a larger city to take this job. She dresses more elegantly than the average woman in this cultural backwater. She likes art and has a somewhat commanding presence when she enters a room. She's well spoken, obviously intelligent and seems to behave as a lady most of the time (perhaps all of the time). Of course, all this makes her very attractive to men, but tonight she asked one of us, another older man like myself, whether she has a sign on her back because she seems to be attracting too much male attention for her own comfort. Later I was out on the patio for a smoke and the man she asked this question relayed his answer.

He told her she gives off "messages" because of the way she dresses. I didn't say much, but I've been a bit angry about that ever since.

I see nothing cheap or brazen about her appearance or manner. She apparently enjoys being feminine. To my way of thinking, it is extremely chauvinistic to equate her sophistication only with her sexuality, and downright oppressive to suggest that she should alter herself to become more like her peers. It isn't up to a woman to lower her standard of femininity. It's up to men to see the person within that cloak of attractiveness and treat her accordingly. As far as I'm concerned the man who told her she needs to tone down if she wants to be treated the same way as her peers is just a silly old fart. A woman is a woman.

I'm not saying women are perfect nor that being elegant and charming necessarily makes one woman a better person than another woman. I'm just saying that female attractiveness is a product of nature. For a woman to suppress that side of herself is sadly defeatist, and for man to suggest such a thing is at best stupid and at worst oppressive. If that's feminism then I'm a feminist.

 

[shereads]

Is this feminism?

These days I work on the national help desk of a big high speed ISP. The call centre is located in a dirty little cow town in the interior of British Columbia. It's called Kamloops, and at one time its paper mill used to stink so bad you could smell it ten miles away. It doesn't smell much anymore, but it's still a one horse town with not much going on unless you consider getting drunk every Friday night the key to a meaningful life. So a large call centre providing tech help across the entire U.S.A. obviously attracts all kinds of employees; people who might otherwise seldom be seen outside their homes.

There's a lady who works there. I think she probably came from a larger city to take this job. She dresses more elegantly than the average woman in this cultural backwater. She likes art and has a somewhat commanding presence when she enters a room. She's well spoken, obviously intelligent and seems to behave as a lady most of the time (perhaps all of the time). Of course, all this makes her very attractive to men, but tonight she asked one of us, another older man like myself, whether she has a sign on her back because she seems to be attracting too much male attention for her own comfort. Later I was out on the patio for a smoke and the man she asked this question relayed his answer.

He told her she gives off "messages" because of the way she dresses. I didn't say much, but I've been a bit angry about that ever since.

I see nothing cheap or brazen about her appearance or manner. She apparently enjoys being feminine. To my way of thinking, it is extremely chauvinistic to equate her sophistication only with her sexuality, and downright oppressive to suggest that she should alter herself to become more like her peers. It isn't up to a woman to lower her standard of femininity. It's up to men to see the person within that cloak of attractiveness and treat her accordingly. As far as I'm concerned the man who told her she needs to tone down if she wants to be treated the same way as her peers is just a silly old fart. A woman is a woman.

I'm not saying women are perfect nor that being elegant and charming necessarily makes one woman a better person than another woman. I'm just saying that female attractiveness is a product of nature. For a woman to suppress that side of herself is sadly defeatist, and for man to suggest such a thing is at best stupid and at worst oppressive. If that's feminism then I'm a feminist.

Gary Chambers! Where the dickens have you been?

 

[Gary Chambers]

Hi Sher,
In my nights I have been in Roadrunner land. In my days I sleep and build my Web site. It's about time I wrote something fresh for Literotica, however, and besides it's spring and I'm ready to come out of hibernation. It's just the nature of lounge lizards.

Nice to see you're still around sweet-thang. Oh by the way, the beard's gone. It made me look too much like Miles Standish.

Gary

 

[shereads]

Oh by the way, the beard's gone. It made me look too much like Miles Standish.

Now I know what Miles Standish looked like (I just pasted a small paper beard on your AV.) Thank you!

 

[Black Tulip]

Gary,

How nice to see you're back.

On the topic of chauvinism: I get the impression we have female chauvinists here as well, maybe even without realising it.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Of course. But why can't I say that I see in that opinion a case of double standards reversed?

If you do not accept that men can do some jobs better because of their having a penis, you cannot claim that women are more suited for other jobs because they have a womb.

I think you are headed towards a very slippery slope with that kind of reasoning. Wasn't that part of what feminism tried to get rid off? Connecting functionality with gender specific bodyparts?

 

[Gary Chambers]

Actually, I got off work at midnight and by 3 am I was still thinking about that silly comment made to the lady mentioned in my post above. I decided I needed to vent a little, and where else would one go at 3 am to vent on such a subject?

I really don't know what Miles looked like. All I know is my beard gives me a rather Biblical countenance, and I don't want to be chastised by any advertising standards watchdogs, so I felt it was best to shave it off.

Miles is just a dead guy, though I still think he should be dug up and hung, if only because he brought G.W.B.'s ancestors safely across the Atlantic. Now that's what I call a crime against humanity.

 

[Gary Chambers]

Hello to you too Tulip,

I really don't know what to think about feminism as a political standpoint. I'm a small 'L' libertarian, perhaps even a libertine. I believe we all need much more freedom than we have, and I fear that trying to impose equality will make us less equal in the end. As the years go by I become more fond of women for just being women. The politics of it become less important. Vive la difference!

 

[Guest]

Hello to you too Tulip,

I really don't know what to think about feminism as a political standpoint. I'm a small 'L' libertarian, perhaps even a libertine. I believe we all need much more freedom than we have, and I fear that trying to impose equality will make us less equal in the end. As the years go by I become more fond of women for just being women. The politics of it become less important. Vive la difference!

 

[Guest]

Gary,

How nice to see you're back.

On the topic of chauvinism: I get the impression we have female chauvinists here as well, maybe even without realising it.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Of course. But why can't I say that I see in that opinion a case of double standards reversed?

If you do not accept that men can do some jobs better because of their having a penis, you cannot claim that women are more suited for other jobs because they have a womb.

I think you are headed towards a very slippery slope with that kind of reasoning. Wasn't that part of what feminism tried to get rid off? Connecting functionality with gender specific bodyparts?

I wonder if you're a bit too close to the situation and cannot speak objectively.

You ARE a health-care professional, thus you are taking my opinion personally.

I never said men couldn't do things as well as women, I merely said I preferred to have a female with me while giving birth.

(Now I am done beating the proverbial dead horse!)



(Chuckling, as I've never been referred to as being chauvinistic before!)