How do you engage readers on Literotica?

[Britva415]

Why do writers do this. Generally because they want to make sure that you understand how good they think that they are or want to be, rather than how good they actually are.

I feel like this assumes bad faith. My own take is that unconfident writers who know they're unconfident writers will do this to see/find out whether what they meant is coming across in what they wrote.

I know you sort of made a point of couching the above in terms of instructionary notes to the reader, and not in terms of soliciting pre-publishing feedback like what OP Freya was doing here. I still think that a writer who does that does it as a concession to their own lack of confidence as a writer, and not to overpower readers with their will.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I feel like this assumes bad faith. My own take is that unconfident writers who know they're unconfident writers will do this to see/find out whether what they meant is coming across in what they wrote.

I know you sort of made a point of couching the above in terms of instructionary notes to the reader, and not in terms of soliciting pre-publishing feedback like what OP Freya was doing here. I still think that a writer who does that does it as a concession to their own lack of confidence as a writer, and not to overpower readers with their will.

First off, Keith just summed up pretty much my exact stance so anyone who doesn't crap on him at least half as much as they've crapped on me is a hypocrite.

Second, I've said many times in this thread that often writers do not intend to deflect the flaws of their work when disclaiming, but that is always the message sent, the vibe, so it's not about assuming bad faith, it's about receiving a weak vibe right off the top. But folks like intim8 and Voboy and Alex (and I know AlohaDave is lurking too) jump straight to the conclusion that suits them to make me out as the villain that they want me to be.

Third, I have read a couple of Freya's disclaimers. Her Faith, Hope and Love entries are blatant warnings to avoid downvotes (she even puts the small word counts into the titles! which she does not do with her regularly lengthed entries). Then there is another story that has a lengthy paragraph telling the reader of all the things that they might not like (a slow burn ... my first attempt at ...) and actually asks the reader to "please be kind"! The translation there is obvious: it really might not be that good so please please don't downvote me. I'm not saying anything about the quality of the story (I have not read it) but I'm also not enticed when right off the top is a huge disclaimer begging for love and apologizing for what I'm about to experience.

So, yes actually, lack of confidence as a writer is exactly what Freya is projecting here, whether she means to or not.

 

[Britva415]

I guess I'm just not following how their intentions can be both grandiosely egotistical and simperingly unconfident at the same time.

 

[FreyaGersemi]

Third, I have read a couple of Freya's disclaimers. Her Faith, Hope and Love entries are blatant warnings to avoid downvotes (she even puts the small word counts into the titles! which she does not do with her regularly lengthed entries). Then there is another story that has a lengthy paragraph telling the reader of all the things that they might not like (a slow burn ... my first attempt at ...) and actually asks the reader to "please be kind"! The translation there is obvious: it really might not be that good so please please don't downvote me. I'm not saying anything about the quality of the story (I have not read it) but I'm also not enticed when right off the top is a huge disclaimer begging for love and apologizing for what I'm about to experience.

This is not me being defensive, although anyone can read it as they wish.

I was warned against the "slow burn/first attempt" foreword, but figured that anyone that had read (and enjoyed) my stories would appreciate the "warning."

And the "Faith, Hope, and Love" series was me going out on a limb.

In both cases (especially the "Faith, Hope, and Love" series), neither seemed to affect ratings and/or engagement. Possibly the opposite.

Let the 1-bombs commence!

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I do follow a lot of writers. I'm polite!

Oh! That's a good idea!!!! I didn't realize many people read the profiles. Thank you!!!!!

Comments are almost always unilateral, which makes them very unreliable for communicating with readers.

E-mail feedback is too anonymous and infrequent to consider as a means to engage with readers.

Your profile does put you in front of those readers/writers who follow you if they pay attention to their own dashboard. To that end, you might want to encourage people to follow you at the end of your stories.

 

[ChloeTzang]

I feel like this assumes bad faith. My own take is that unconfident writers who know they're unconfident writers will do this to see/find out whether what they meant is coming across in what they wrote.

I know you sort of made a point of couching the above in terms of instructionary notes to the reader, and not in terms of soliciting pre-publishing feedback like what OP Freya was doing here. I still think that a writer who does that does it as a concession to their own lack of confidence as a writer, and not to overpower readers with their will.

I wasn't that confident when I started here, I did go and actively solicit voting and really, it made no difference whatsoever. After about 8 years writing here (OMG, I was a baby when I started LOL), I'm a lot more comfortable with my writing, I write what I want to write and I always try to write a little intro which is more designed to express why I wrote the story, and sometimes, what that story means to me, personally. I like to give my stories a little context that way, and sometimes I like to write a semi-humorous intro, and give an indication of where the story might offend some readers. I have quite a range of readers, from writing across a few categories within LIT, and I don't like to lead readers into reading something they might not enjoy at all.

Incest and LW are pretty obvious categories, but a lot of my readers just dive into my stories without looking at the genre so I do like to state up front so nobodies taken unawares. That's not designed to impact voting - I used to worry about that, but now, not really. Obviously I like that little red H, LOL, but if I don't get it, I don't worry about it at all. Some of my stories will never get that little red H and some of them, I wrote them not expecting them to rate particularly highly but I wrote them because it was something I wanted to write. Anyhow, I write here for fun, and because I enjoy writing for my readers here. If readers enjoy my stories, I'm happy, and for those that don't, it's not like there's any shortage of other stuff for them to read here. LOL.

So no, I don't see it so much as bad faith as a being a little new, a little uncertain, and lacking a little in confidence - and that is all goodm because that encourages us to try harder to improve our writing skills and write a better story. Confidence and certainty come with experience, and you only get that by writing and writing and writing, and having readers read your stories and react. All part of that learning curve that goes on for life - none of us will ever know everything, and as log as you're willing to learn, there's things to learn.....in writing as in everything else.

 

[TheLobster]

Second, I've said many times in this thread that often writers do not intend to deflect the flaws of their work when disclaiming, but that is always the message sent, the vibe, so it's not about assuming bad faith, it's about receiving a weak vibe right off the top.

You are receiving so much pushback here because you're taking your interpretation of some of the preambles writers add and calling it a general "vibe." In other words, you are objectivizing a necessarily subjective reading of these forewords.

Coincidentally, I actually agree with this interpretation, which is why my stories have practically zero ornaments. But I do not claim that others are wrong for not reading them as the author's plea to readers for kinder/gentler treatment (irrespective of the author's actual intentions).

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I guess I'm just not following how their intentions can be both grandiosely egotistical and simperingly unconfident at the same time.

Egotistical behavior is always a mask for self-perceived shortcomings. Everybody does it. We're all human.

Chasing (or protecting) a score is always egotistical.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

This is not me being defensive, although anyone can read it as they wish.

I never said that you were defensive. I said that it's the vibe that you are giving off.

But I do not claim that others are wrong for not reading them as the author's plea to readers for kinder/gentler treatment (irrespective of the author's actual intentions).

I haven't either.

 

[AlexBailey]

So that means that the only reason for the warning is paranoia of the downvote.

This is your opinion, not fact. You have overstated your opinion as fact and have compromised your credibility.

Doubling down and waffling about what you have already said can’t fix it.

 

[samhasstories]

Well, at least everyone's staying pleasantly civil.

 

[Voboy]

This is your opinion, not fact. You have overstated your opinion as fact and have compromised your credibility.

Doubling down and waffling about what you have already said can’t fix it.

This.

It amazes me that everyone sees this except @pink_silk_glove, but then I addressed that in one of my prior posts too. I'm not surprised it went unnoticed.

And... @pink_silk_glove? If you want to whine about people calling out you and not @KeithD, it's because this is precisely the difference between you two: he is unequivocal in his opinion, and even somewhat offensive in his presentation of it, but he acknowledges he might not be correct for every writer nor every situation. It will not shock me if you willfully continue to refuse to see the distinction there.

 

[mildlyaroused]

It often amuses me how little trigger control we have on the internet. I understand in real life, getting into arguments in the heat of the movement, when you have to save face. But it's funny that we wind up in the same silly ruts online too (insert commentary about how our devices are becoming extensions of ourselves).

Personally I see no harm in communicating with readers through a note at the start or end of stories. It helps them temper their expectations, which is important for both their sake and for my sake - since I want people who read my work to enjoy it, not get frustrated that it's a slower burn than they expected, or whatever.

I also enjoy the tidbits of perspective or self-analysis that I get from authors at the end of their stories, sort of like a tiny What I Wrote and Why. Provided they're not too self indulgent, that is.

 

[KeithD]

If a reader reaches out to me, I'll always respond unless they appear to be in attack mode (which isn't often). I won't initiate contact, however, giving them the right to just read and pass on, if they wish.

 

[KeithD]

First off, Keith just summed up pretty much my exact stance so anyone who doesn't crap on him at least half as much as they've crapped on me is a hypocrite.

Yeah, I was basically agreeing with you on "this story contains the following possible off-putting elements" proslugs and postslugs. I haven't been following the discussion all that closely, so I haven't seen where you were laying down "everyone's got to do it this way" instructions, but maybe you were and I've missed it. I haven't read the thread enough in detail to see why anyone has his/her knickers in a twist over giving preferences on this.

And I can't see this type of pro- or postslug as being anything but defensive. OK with me if others do it for whatever reason they have, but I don't and won't--and they don't do this in the mainstream. I try to write erotica as closely to writing for the mainstream as I can. I don't read much on Literotica, but if I encountered a proslug like that on a story, I probably wouldn't read further into it.

I do like seeing "why I wrote this" notes on stories--if, indeed, it gives an interesting angle to the story. I've done a little of that but have been disappointed in the lack of response. I'd do more if it was frequently done with Lit. stories. I have a lot of that in my blog entries and sometimes go into it in the comments to the stories if a reader wants to go there.

 

[KeithD]

This.

he is unequivocal in his opinion, and even somewhat offensive in his presentation of it,

I sotta think you've now given up your right to call out anyone else in this discussion for being judgmental and preachy. I'd also take issue with me being unequivocal in my opinions. I think I do a lot of "this or thating." But, then, that certainly can be your opinion.

 

[Voboy]

I sotta think you've now given up your right to call out anyone else in this discussion for being judgmental and preachy. I'd also take issue with me being unequivocal in my opinions. I think I do a lot of "this or thating." But, then, that certainly can be your opinion.

Oh, relax. You called your fellow writers "enabler babysitters." I'm sure a number of them find that more than a little offensive (I qualified that with my "somewhat"), and you know that quite well, and normally you're willing to own such insults.

Don't disappoint me now...

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Come on Keith, you should know that Voboy's feelings are more important than the truth. Sheesh.

 

[KeithD]

Oh, relax. You called your fellow writers "enabler babysitters." I'm sure a number of them find that more than a little offensive, and you know that quite well, and normally you're willing to own such insults.

Don't disappoint me now...

Well, yes, in believing that the proslugs I mention are defensive in ways that detract from the story and considering that enabling babysitting is a natural result for them, I am giving what I think is constructive writing guidance. Are you just upset that I don't pussyfoot around with my analysis of what is good, nonpandering publishing technique and what is not? Folks here post a lot about using Literotica for development purposes. Well, I'm a seasoned publishing veteran. I'm trying to help them develop in the standard ways of publishing--while each time also acknowledging that they can do what they damn well please about it and learn the pitfalls for themselves.

The very moment that you find me posting about you personally and your board persona and delivery in damning praise as you just did with me, do call me on it. I won't hold my breath in the meantime.

 

[intim8]

since I want people who read my work to enjoy it, not get frustrated that it's a slower burn than they expected, or whatever.

That's a good point. Lit readers tend to have far more specific expectations than just a good story. Titles, tags, etc., aren't always enough to express how a story will meet those. I still won't do that in mine, but I can see more of a point in it than I did.

I can't see this type of pro- or postslug as being anything but defensive.

Read the pre and post on my story (linked in my sig) and tell me if it comes off defensive. Maybe it's not the "this type" you meant, but there has been a lot of over-generalization on this thread, so who knows.

( I will get defensive about one aspect of it. This is the first time I've done it, and the formatting of it sucks. That will be tightened up in the future. )

they don't do this in the mainstream. I try to write erotica as closely to writing for the mainstream as I can.

Mainstream stories on other sites allow for a lot more context around a story. A blurb, often cover art. Lit is very bare-bones in that regard.

I do try to write as if it was mainstream, in terms of structure and quality, but with more sex than the mainstream usually tolerates. The pre and post things are just different packaging, not different storytelling, and not meant to make up for any deficits knowingly left in.

Folks here post a lot about using Literotica for development purposes. Well, I'm a seasoned publishing veteran. I'm trying to help them develop in the standard ways of publishing

For all your annoying abrasiveness, I do see that, and even appreciate it sometimes.

 

[KeithD]

Mainstream stories aren't normally on Internet reading sites. They are in printed (or e-book) anthologies and literary magazines. If you are understanding the specific type of proslug I'm addressing, can you give me a citation of mainstream stories on the Internet with "don't read this if you find XX squeamish" proslugs? I do a lot of work in this area in the mainstream (up until this year I edited a regional contest-based prose and poetry literary magazine), and I've never seen this type of proslug on a mainstream story no matter where it appeared. This is the specific type of proslug I'm addressing in my posts on this thread. This is an adult site. I expect readers reading here to take personal responsibility for what they read and not to curl up in a blabbering ball when they encounter what they don't want to read in stories they've chosen to read and have checked the keywords. (Yes, that can be just my opinion, but it's a logical base from which I post.)

You're asking for a check on your proslug on "Pictures of Her"? I would have put that age disclaimer in the notes box when submitting, not on top of the story. The only need for it is to get it published at Literotica within the site guidelines. The reader should assume a posted story meets the site guidelines. If the submission is legitimate (as well as the claim), there should be no need to proslug adherence to age restriction on it.

 

[intim8]

he only need for it is to get it published at Literotica within the site guidelines.

That's correct.

Just because it is part of the submitted content on Lit does not mean it is part of the story. It is packaging, completely outside the story. Just like cover art and a back-cover blurb is on a book, but done within the process that Lit supports and limitations it has.

If I was publishing the same story elsewhere, it would have packaging specific to and appropriate for whatever venue or media that was.

 

[Voboy]

For all your annoying abrasiveness, I do see that, and even appreciate it sometimes.

I'll second this.

Regardless, I suspect the OP is likely to have gleaned anything she can from what little I had to contribute, so have fun, y'all.

 

[mildlyaroused]

Personally I also don't think putting "All character are over 18 (and/or resemblance to real life is coincidental)" is necessary. Those things should speak for themselves, considering the story has been published.

On the topic of writing as though Lit were mainstream, I can respect the process, and I think in many ways it's a good rule of thumb. But in the context of forewords I don't think it translates.

Because readers who pick up your mainstream novel are fundamentally different to the readers who click on your story on Lit. That's just the truth. They are in different markets of fiction. Readers who open novels do so with the knowledge that it could go anywhere, and they have the foresight of your reputation, title cover, blurb, reviews, word of mouth, etc.

On Lit, all readers have is the title and 60-character description (crumbs really), and a few tags - and most of the time they're not after a novel. Also, more importantly, they're horny. Most of them don't want a story which subverts expectations but holds its own as a piece of art. They want sex, and they want to be informed. A gentle message telling them how much action there is, whether there's any more extreme kinks, and that you hope they enjoy is, in my eyes, perfectly reasonable.

Though I do understand the attraction of jumping right into the story. It feels refreshing, somehow.

 

[KeithD]

That's correct.

Just because it is part of the submitted content on Lit does not mean it is part of the story. It is packaging, completely outside the story. Just like cover art and a back-cover blurb is on a book, but done within the process that Lit supports and limitations it has.

If I was publishing the same story elsewhere, it would have packaging specific to and appropriate for whatever venue or media that was.

Then it only needs to go to the submission's editor, ergo in the Notes box in the submissions form. There's no need for it connected with the published story for the reason I've already noted. What am I missing here?

(It actually doesn't need to go there either if the content doesn't include any underage sexual activity. If you think a particular term or passage might be questionable, that, specifically is what would be good to raise in the Notes box. For instance, "boy" is used occasionally in my stories as a "talk down" rather than a specific reference to age. As "boy" can set the rejection program off, I'll point to that specifically in the Notes box in the submission's form.)