How do you engage readers on Literotica?

[KeithD]

On the topic of writing as though Lit were mainstream, I can respect the process, and I think in many ways it's a good rule of thumb. But in the context of forewords I don't think it translates.

Because readers who pick up your mainstream novel are fundamentally different to the readers who click on your story on Lit.

Ergo exactly what I indicated also in my first posting to this thread. [Post #102: "Including a defensive proslug or postslug on Literotica stories to improve ratings/get more votes or comments might work more than not at Literotica (so, do it with your stories, if you like)"]

On the whole, I don't expect readers on Literotica to be as sophisticated as those in the mainstream or for content in the mainstream to include the sexual extremism that a Literotica story might.

So, I was acknowledging that such a defensive "You might find XXX squeamish" proslug might work better than not at Literotica, depending on your goal with the story, but I'm not advocating doing it. This is where I opine that it is enabling babysitting. It shouldn't be needed on an adult site. The reader shouldn't have to be pandered to in this way, I believe. They should take adult responsibility for their own reading on an adult site.

 

[mildlyaroused]

Ergo exactly what I indicated also in my first posting to this thread.

Mm, I probably didn't read it. There's too much snarky back and forth to wade through in this thread to find the actual unique responses, lol...

 

[KeithD]

Mm, I probably didn't read it. There's too much snarky back and forth to wade through in this thread to find the actual unique responses, lol...

I brought up the specific citation in the quoted post after you'd quoted it.

 

[intim8]

If you think a particular term or passage might be questionable, that, specifically is what would be good to raise in the Notes box.

It's not clear to me if that is sufficient. I've had one story sent back because it took place in high school. The rejection message was along the lines of, some high schoolers are under 18, so you should clarify it in the story.

Based on what I think Lit's concerns are, they're not concerned about just whether they know it is copacetic, but whether someone coming in off the street will know. And that the kinds of users they don't want here will know.

Besides, it's moot, because it does zero harm, here, to include it on the packaging. Which, again, is completely unrelated to how it would be packaged elsewhere.

 

[KeithD]

Besides, it's moot, because it does zero harm, here, to include it on the packaging. Which, again, is completely unrelated to how it would be packaged elsewhere.

I obviously don't agree about "you might not want to read this is xxx makes you squeamish" proslugs not doing harm to both author and reader. It makes the author defensive about their work (as I've already noted several times) as well as losing them some readers (like me) who won't then read the story because the proslug is defensive and indicates pablum is herein from someone without the convictions of their writing. It's bad for the reader because it enables their not being adults on an adult site and taking care of their own reading. It enables and perpetuates their arrested-development "needs."

We can just agree to disagree on this and you can do as you please.

 

[mildlyaroused]

I don't mind at all what other writers do about forewords. But I will never understand the authors here who say that including a foreword shows a lack of conviction for the body of your story.

As a writer, putting a foreword that says "this story contains [kink that will turn some people off]" isn't defensive at all. It's not born from a lack of conviction that your work is of high quality, and it's not an indication of pablum. Frankly, I think to draw those conclusions from such a foreword is to make a rather arrogant reach for something that doesn't exist.

Does including a photosensitivity warning at the beginning of a TV show indicate a lack of conviction from the creators? No, of course not. It's just warning to viewers who are sensitive to a certain stimulus to take care, or turn back. Including a foreword is not much different. It's not justifying your creative decisions out of a fear that they won't stand on their own, it's just a note for the readers' benefit. Because no matter how well you write, some readers aren't interested in certain content.

Now, depriving readers of that note so that they can be "adults" and "take care of their own reading" doesn't make any more sense to me. Why is it more adult to invest time into starting a story that you won't like, as opposed to reading a quick foreword and choosing to not start reading in the first place? Certainly it's more time consuming, but why would authors want to waste audiences' time? You might as well get rid of them before they invest their own energy into something they won't like, as a courtesy.

 

[Seadog777]

Aside from sending pictures of my boobs (and other body parts) and participating in sex chats -- both of which I am not interesting in doing -- how do you engage readers? Or do you take a laissez-faire attitude and just post stories, only engaging if and when they initiate the contact (comments and/or private messages). I am very interested in what others are doing to build their readership. Thank you!

I reply on threads or send him/her a PM.

Like you, I'm trying to make some friends.

I hope it works out better for you, than it has for myself.

You do have a leg up on me, in this male dominated site though.

My PMs are always open Freya.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Are you saying none of these other things can change that?

This is anecdotal evidence and n=1 to boot, but my last story, where I added the pre/post notes, those numbers are down to 1 in 13 and 1 in 160. And I've gotten 5 PMs about it. That is better than even my best previous story, and the numbers you cite, by multiples, not increments. I can't say for sure the pre/postamble did it, but it looks like it.

Possible other reasons: It is in Romance (my only entry there) which may be just that much better for feedback, and it is my highest rated story by a significant amount, so maybe it is just that much better of a story and organically inspired more feedback (or maybe asking for votes prompted higher voting, which would be unfortunate). I'll see what the ouctome is on my next story, whenever that is.

IME romance does seem to do pretty well for votes/views and comments/views, but that may be more about the content than the category. I see similar results for romance and romance-ish stories in other categories too. From mine:

Last chapter of Stringed Instrument (romance posted in Lesbian): 1/70, 1/700. (This is my oldest story and it seems to get quite a few repeat readers, which probably reduces those ratios since people who've already voted/commented might not do so again on return visits.)
Loss Function (lesbian romance posted in Romance): 1/60, 1/300
Last chapter of Red Scarf (romance-adjacent I guess?, Lesbian): 1/50, 1/270
Copper Coin (lesbian romance posted in SF/F): 1/50, 1/400

Counting to Eleven (Lesbian; mild BDSM, not romance): 1/200, 1/4700
Magnum Innominandum (Erotic Horror; romance but doomed and tragic): 1/280, 1/1600
The Floggings Will Continue (Ex/Voy, fucked-up corporate retreat; some romance but not a defining element): 1/100, 1/1000
The Wasp of St. Judith's (Erotic Horror, not romance): 1/170, 1/800
Red Callum, Sweet Cate (horror Text with Audio): 1/350, 1/1700.

Overall I think the 1/100, 1/1000 rule of thumb is not too far off, but there's a lot of variation around that, and the romance-ish content seems to get about double the engagement per view.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I don't interact with them. I would if I got a PM, or an email, if I have it setup that way. The comment section is useless to try and talk to them, and I'm not gonna try and add authors notes, or whatever in them as a just in case.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Yeah, I was basically agreeing with you on "this story contains the following possible off-putting elements" proslugs and postslugs. I haven't been following the discussion all that closely, so I haven't seen where you were laying down "everyone's got to do it this way" instructions, but maybe you were and I've missed it. I haven't read the thread enough in detail to see why anyone has his/her knickers in a twist over giving preferences on this.

And I can't see this type of pro- or postslug as being anything but defensive. OK with me if others do it for whatever reason they have, but I don't and won't--and they don't do this in the mainstream. I try to write erotica as closely to writing for the mainstream as I can. I don't read much on Literotica, but if I encountered a proslug like that on a story, I probably wouldn't read further into it.

I do like seeing "why I wrote this" notes on stories--if, indeed, it gives an interesting angle to the story. I've done a little of that but have been disappointed in the lack of response. I'd do more if it was frequently done with Lit. stories. I have a lot of that in my blog entries and sometimes go into it in the comments to the stories if a reader wants to go there.

I haven't seen any on stories here, but I do find them on ao3 and ffn often enough it's rather annoying. At least on ffn. Ao3 has authors notes sections and they're easily ignored, ffn is like here, where it's in the story body.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Oh, relax. You called your fellow writers "enabler babysitters." I'm sure a number of them find that more than a little offensive (I qualified that with my "somewhat"), and you know that quite well, and normally you're willing to own such insults.

Don't disappoint me now...

Only the ones it'd fit should be offended. I don't do disclaimers, trigger warnings, preambles or whatever, so the title "enabler babysitter" is nonapplicable. I even went way opposite on two fan fics on ao3 by simply not using any archive warnings to trick people into reading the dark shit within.

 

[KeithD]

As a writer, putting a foreword that says "this story contains [kink that will turn some people off]" isn't defensive at all.

Yes, of course it is, or you wouldn't feel the need to do so. We can go around this circle as much as folks willing to pander to immature readers would like here, I suppose. Doesn't change that pointing to elements of one's story that might make a childish reader roll up into a bawling ball when you have honestly covered that in the keywording on an erotica story site is a defensive, timid, pandering act.

 

[lustychimera]

I don't mind at all what other writers do about forewords. But I will never understand the authors here who say that including a foreword shows a lack of conviction for the body of your story.

As a writer, putting a foreword that says "this story contains [kink that will turn some people off]" isn't defensive at all. It's not born from a lack of conviction that your work is of high quality, and it's not an indication of pablum. Frankly, I think to draw those conclusions from such a foreword is to make a rather arrogant reach for something that doesn't exist.

Does including a photosensitivity warning at the beginning of a TV show indicate a lack of conviction from the creators? No, of course not. It's just warning to viewers who are sensitive to a certain stimulus to take care, or turn back. Including a foreword is not much different. It's not justifying your creative decisions out of a fear that they won't stand on their own, it's just a note for the readers' benefit. Because no matter how well you write, some readers aren't interested in certain content.

Now, depriving readers of that note so that they can be "adults" and "take care of their own reading" doesn't make any more sense to me. Why is it more adult to invest time into starting a story that you won't like, as opposed to reading a quick foreword and choosing to not start reading in the first place? Certainly it's more time consuming, but why would authors want to waste audiences' time? You might as well get rid of them before they invest their own energy into something they won't like, as a courtesy.

I'm with you for the most part. But it really seems like a gray area, too.

Like, "Warning: The characters here love drinking piss out of buttholes. They love the stuff. Can't get enough of it." <--- That's a pretty valid disclaimer.

But "Warning: Thar be gays in this story, lad," is solely for the author to protect themselves. I see this one a lot, too. Always for men. Haven't once seen it for lesbians. I get why people do it, but it doesn't send a great message.

 

[SimonDoom]

I have advocate before and still hope the Site some day gives authors the opportunity to create a Site-based blog, because I think some readers would be interested in reading their favorite authors' ongoing journaling about their writing process, and it would give authors an additional way to market and popularize their work.

 

[intim8]

Yes, of course it is, or you wouldn't feel the need to do so. We can go around this circle as much as folks willing to pander to immature readers would like here, I suppose. Doesn't change that pointing to elements of one's story that might make a childish reader roll up into a bawling ball when you have honestly covered that in the keywording on an erotica story site is a defensive, timid, pandering act.

See, moralistic bombast and knee-jerk psychologizing is more the "abrasive" part, and less the "useful advice from a seasoned publishing veteran" part.

The thread is about how to pro-actively increase engagement from readers, so an example of the latter might be something about where the line is between a helpful pre/post note and a defensive one, or how to craft them to be more useful and less off-putting.

For one thing, I think many readers don't bother to look at the story tags, or don't even know that they can click to see them, so I have considered listing them in my pre note, as a matter of course. I'm on the fence about it, so seasoned experienced advice could be helpful.

But I would expect your reaction to be something along the lines of: it's the reader's tough luck if they can't be arsed to click the tag icon. However, engagement and marketing is about meeting people where they are, not tapping your foot impatiently while waiting for them to arrive at some idealized place you wish them to be.

 

[intim8]

I think the lists feature can become a useful tool for engaging readers. If you create quality lists, it can be an avenue for readers to come back to your profile at least. Manu has said that they intend to implement subscribing to lists.

And if you get your story on someone else's list, someone known as a good curator, that can help a lot. But getting on those without resorting to shady back channel dealing comes back to all the ways to attract discerning readers, which brings us full-circle, I guess. But it is one more angle to consider.

 

[TheLobster]

It's one of the many total UX failures on the part of LitE that tags are only visible if you click on one tiny, inconspicuous icon next four other tiny inconspicuous icons, none of which look clickable in the first place. For some reason, it's more important to have useless extra sidebar space than to let readers clearly see the topics of the story.

Considering how bad the whole handling of tags is, it's not really all that surprising that authors use ugly workarounds.

 

[ideological_imbroglio]

Well, yes, in believing that the proslugs I mention are defensive in ways that detract from the story and considering that enabling babysitting is a natural result for them, I am giving what I think is constructive writing guidance. Are you just upset that I don't pussyfoot around with my analysis of what is good, nonpandering publishing technique and what is not? Folks here post a lot about using Literotica for development purposes. Well, I'm a seasoned publishing veteran. I'm trying to help them develop in the standard ways of publishing--while each time also acknowledging that they can do what they damn well please about it and learn the pitfalls for themselves.

The very moment that you find me posting about you personally and your board persona and delivery in damning praise as you just did with me, do call me on it. I won't hold my breath in the meantime.

Right, but you yourself admitted that this isn't a professional publishing site. We're all posting our stories here for different reasons. It's reasonable to point out that in professional publishing, this would be pretty absurd behavior -- but here? Accusing anyone who does it of 'enabling babysitters' just comes off as rude and petty.

Like, sure, I get it; it DOES come off as defensive. But... y'know that people who are acting defensive typically don't stop BEING defensive when you attack them, right?

 

[AlexBailey]

Yes, of course it is, or you wouldn't feel the need to do so. We can go around this circle as much as folks willing to pander to immature readers would like here, I suppose. Doesn't change that pointing to elements of one's story that might make a childish reader roll up into a bawling ball when you have honestly covered that in the keywording on an erotica story site is a defensive, timid, pandering act.

Is there any particular reason you post different types of stories under different author names?

Is that ‘pandering’ or ‘babysitting’? Is there something you’re trying to protect? Is it an insecurity on your part or is there some way you consider it to be a benefit to your audience?

 

[ideological_imbroglio]

Is there any particular reason you post different types of stories under different author names?

Is that ‘pandering’ or ‘babysitting’? Is there something you’re trying to protect? Is it an insecurity on your part or is there some way you consider it to be a benefit to your audience?

Yeah, this is the other part of it that's confusing me. Like, sure; I get it in the broadest sense (the more cautionary signs you put between your readers and your work, the more likely it becomes that you'll come off as insecure and timid), but the idea that this is a simple unvarnished truth -- rather than merely a reasonably sound guiding principle -- strikes me as right up there with Orson Scott Card asserting that prologues are 'always wrong'.

We all have different methods of filtering our audience. Critiquing the more overt methods is fine, but we all engage in it on some level.

 

[KeithD]

Is there any particular reason you post different types of stories under different author names?

Is that ‘pandering’ or ‘babysitting’? Is there something you’re trying to protect? Is it an insecurity on your part or is there some way you consider it to be a benefit to your audience?

Why is it that you folks feel the need to attack me directly so often for sharing my experience on the board? Is it that much more comforting to live in a blind-leading-the-blind world as long as one hasn't put in the effort to dispel their own blindness?

Yes, paramount to my posting stories to Literotica is that I want them to be read. If that wasn't the case, I'd just be content with putting them in the marketplace. And there are some realities to that here. Some here say they won't read certain stories here if they are revealed to having been written by the "wrong" gender author. Some here say they won't read stories posted out of an author's primary category (why I went from writing across the board as sr71plt to compartmentalized authoring). Some say they will only read stories with a Red H (which is the only reason that I see getting a Red H is something I want at Literotica--it increases readership of the story). Some, as is being covered on this thread, say they won't read stories babysitting for less-than-adult readers with on-the-top pandering proslugs rather than letting the keywords do it and making readers here take responsibility for themselves.

The guidance I give on the board may often be bald (the publishing world isn't Neverneverland), but it's also analysis from a half-century of trained publishing experience--including an all-time top-10 production lister here on Literotica over nearly two decades. If you disagree, just go ahead and do as you please. Just stop chipping away at my sharing actual experience in the business with personal attacking. (And, yes, that was the tone of your posting. You know my position on this. You just want to personally attack me for having that position. You can't be content with me having the positions I do even when I repeatedly say it's fine with me if you then have different views and actions; you've got to continue attacking my position.)

 

[ideological_imbroglio]

Yes, paramount to my posting stories to Literotica is that I want them to be read. If that wasn't the case, I'd just be content with putting them in the marketplace. And there are some realities to that here. Some here say they won't read certain stories here if they are revealed to having been written by the "wrong" gender author. Some here say they won't read stories posted out of an author's primary category (why I went from writing across the board as sr71plt to compartmentalized authoring). Some say they will only read stories with a Red H (which is the only reason that I see getting a Red H is something I want at Literotica--it increases readership of the story). Some, as is being covered on this thread, say they won't read stories babysitting for less-than-adult readers with on-the-top pandering proslugs rather than letting the keywords do it and making readers here take responsibility for themselves.

The guidance I give on the board may often be bald (the publishing world isn't Neverneverland), but it's also analysis from a half-century of trained publishing experience. If you disagree, just go ahead and do as you please. Just stop chipping away at my sharing actual experience in the business with personal attacking. (And, yes, that was the tone of your posting. You know my position on this. You just want to personally attack me for having that position.)

I think your insight in regards to the publishing world is valuable, and worth being heard! That said, you DO understand how all of those things you're describing are effectively 'pandering to the audience', right?

I don't even mean that as a criticism! Like you said; it's just the reality of the medium. But you also said you want sophisticated readers -- do you think the readers who discount your work immediately on account of your gender are 'sophisticated'?

 

[AlexBailey]

Why is it that you folks feel the need to attack me directly so often for sharing my experience on the board? Is it that much more comforting to live in a blind-leading-the-blind world as long as one hasn't put in the effort to dispel their own blindness?

Yes, paramount to my posting stories to Literotica is that I want them to be read. If that wasn't the case, I'd just be content with putting them in the marketplace. And there are some realities to that here. Some here say they won't read certain stories here if they are revealed to having been written by the "wrong" gender author. Some here say they won't read stories posted out of an author's primary category (why I went from writing across the board as sr71plt to compartmentalized authoring). Some say they will only read stories with a Red H (which is the only reason that I see getting a Red H is something I want at Literotica--it increases readership of the story). Some, as is being covered on this thread, say they won't read stories babysitting for less-than-adult readers with on-the-top pandering proslugs rather than letting the keywords do it and making readers here take responsibility for themselves.

The guidance I give on the board may often be bald (the publishing world isn't Neverneverland), but it's also analysis from a half-century of trained publishing experience. If you disagree, just go ahead and do as you please. Just stop chipping away at my sharing actual experience in the business with personal attacking. (And, yes, that was the tone of your posting. You know my position on this. You just want to personally attack me for having that position. You can't be content with me having the positions I do when I repeated say it's fine with me if you then have different views and actions; you've got to continue attacking my position.)

Sorry Keith,
I was asking because what you were saying didn’t reconcile with how you post unless you are being protective.

I’m not attacking you but I understand how you could take it that way.

I think your use of different author names is a legitimate thing to do. Why not? You understand that some readers are content sensitive. I don’t think it’s a weakness on your part to ‘pander’ to them.

Don’t you do it more out of consideration for connecting with the readers than for the sake of vanity?

 

[KeithD]

I think your insight in regards to the publishing world is valuable, and worth being heard! That said, you DO understand how all of those things you're describing are effectively 'pandering to the audience', right?

Only in terms of wanting to increase readership. The type of reader is what's important. I don't go into it with any sense that it's healthy for me to be enabling readers who aren't adult enough at an adults-only erotica short story site to take responsibility for themselves enough to be reading here. I am putting a different emphasis on this than most of the rest of you are on this topic. I'm trying to reach more readers, yes, but not the readers these "you might not want to read this is XXX makes you squeamish" readers. I don't want this type of reader at all, and the reader I'm trying to touch is not pandering.

 

[KeithD]

Don’t you do it more out of consideration for connecting with the readers than for the sake of vanity?

As I've just posted in another response (and I hope this is the last time I am challenged to restate my view on this), I do it to reach specific readers for specific categories/fetishes, trying to strip away impediments to the "right" kind of reader for that material here.

Readers who require the author to babysit them and protect them from reading XXX squeamish material via warning proslugs is not a reader I want for my stories--or even to be on Literotica. They aren't adult/mature/healthy enough to be here at all and I believe pandering to their "need" is enabling the condition(s) that make them unhealthy/inappropriate readers here.

Do it if you want. You won't catch me initiating attacks on anyone doing it. I posted here because I found agreement with someone on the issue who was getting the same gangbanging that I'm now getting. I stand pat on the view that such proslugs show weakness in author and reader alike.