How others see us. Examples.

[WriterDom]

Hi Debbie,

y

First of all, we are in agreement that, from courtesy, authors should be asked, and this I have previously done, where possible.
.

I don't recall you asking my permission when you started a similar thread in the cafe with one of my stories. In fact, the only PM I remember ever getting from you was an apology for making up, and posting under a female name. I never really understood why you felt a need to do that.

 

[Pure]

WD-- I don't recall the cafe incident. If it happened and involved a *very large quoted piece* of a story, and not just a few paras for comment, perhaps you will refresh my memory by PM. IF you were wronged, I'll deal with it. I don't see why your grievance is relevant to a discussion of Debbie's story.

J.

WD: //you started a similar thread in the cafe with one of my stories//

 

[WriterDom]

I don't see why your grievance is relevant to a discussion of Debbie's story.

It is relevant because it shows you have a history of doing this to people that piss you off for whatever reason.

 

[Pure]

In Debbie's story, there is this 'discovery' passage.

[Reading his description of Dominant/ submissive. Submit: To yield to the opinion or authority of another; to give in. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another. Dominate: To control, govern or rule by superior authority or power. Sandy found herself absorbed by this site. Drawn to the pictures of the men with their woman. She saw the photos of woman dominanting men and woman dominating other woman but was drawn to the woman and thier Masters. Woman being dominated by men.[...][She sees images of women being stroked, touched, lashed, --submitting to men.]Sandy was so aroused by theses images that she had her first orgasm without touching herself.


Sandy was excited by what she read. Imagining herself in the women's place. Submitting to her man. Wanting to please. Her Master being pleased by her willing actions. Rewarding her with his hard prick. Tying her to the bed and blindfolding her. Leaving her there. Aroused by the images of woman willingly offering their bodies to the men. Woman on their knees, kneeling in front of their Masters. Heads bowed, humble. Some with collars and leads on all fours. Or Masters standing over their subs with leather straps in their hands. The more she looked the more she wanted to see. Reading stories of submission and domination. More pictures of submissive tied to beds. Sandy felt so aroused by what she saw. [...][She explores links and learns of sub/dom life styles, and rules 'how to be a good submissive', and ideas 'how to find a master']]


Sandy had not had much sexual experience except for the occasional fumblings and gruntings of one or two boys that had taken her on dates. She had not enjoyed herself at all with the boys she had been with. She had read that the first sexual experience for a girl wasn't always pleasant but the quickness and roughness of the act had left her wondering what all the fuss had been about.

She had not had any long term relationships as their was no one she had felt attracted to. Sandy had spent many lonely nights stroking and pleasuring herself. There had been times that she thought maybe she was a little strange as the few girls she knew all had boyfriends and were always gossiping about how wonderful their sex lives were.

The finding of a passage in a book, or some pictures that one responds to is a 'seminal' (!) or crucial experience. For many of us, these events go back into child hood. The descriptions of images are intriguing.

I wonder about the pre history, if any, of 'odd' feelings.
The implication is that there aren't any. Yet actual autobiographical stories contain scenes like, for example, being tied up by a friend, feeling something (later understood.).
In other word, my opinion is that the 'kinky' taste Sandy discovers needs a bit of pre history. Since the 'stroking and pleasuring is mentioned, the content of the fantasies or images might be interesting.

I have a small point that, as mentioned earlier, there is a uniformity here in the description of what she sees and learns; as if there's one submissive type. For instance, in fact, some of such pictures would show pride, some degradation; some would show stripes or bleeding. Some would be suffused with devotion; some with cruelty; some just staged or phoney.


The innocence of the character is certainly brought out well, and the usual 'what's the big deal?' One feels the character Sandy has never really connected sexually or emotionally. My question might be, why is the past so loveless?

Reading the story, and iirc, remembering it was commissioned, I wonder if a male or female audience was aimed at. To me, I'd lean towards the female hypothesis.

 

[Etoile]

Can this please go to story discussion now? I'm not interested in exploring how vanilla people write about kinky people. I don't mind discussing their opinions about us, but this story stuff bores me. It really should be in a story forum, IMNSHO.

 

[Pure]

Etoile,

I don't see that having threads in their 'proper place' as you classify them, is an issue. I've got no notice of egregious misplacement from the moderators of this (bdsm) forum.

The main story discussion forum (of KM) is almost dead-still, at the moment, in any case.

To any: If a thread--and 'vanilla writing' on kinky people-- holds no interest for you, why even post to it? Find one that does.

Thanks for dropping by and expressing your disinterest.



PS. If you mean the 'story feedback' area, this does not seem to fit, since it's authors soliciting feedback.
====

Etoile: Can this please go to story discussion now? I'm not interested in exploring how vanilla people write about kinky people. I don't mind discussing their opinions about us, but this story stuff bores me. It really should be in a story forum, IMNSHO.

 

[Etoile]

having threads in their 'proper place' as you classify them, is an issue. I've got no notice of egregious misplacement from the moderators of this (bdsm) forum.
Hence my "IMNSHO" acronym. In My Not-So-Humble Opinion. It was my http://www.amanita.net/images/smilies/2cents.gif.

To any: If a thread--and 'vanilla writing' on kinky people-- holds no interest for you, why even post to it? Find one that does.
Because I do think this thread had potential based on the title alone. I would love to talk about how others see us. (Hey, maybe I'll bump EatingScarlett's thread! mwahaha http://www.amanita.net/images/smilies/devil.gif )

Thanks for dropping by and expressing your disinterest.



PS. If you mean the 'story feedback' area, this does not seem to fit, since it's authors soliciting feedback.
You're welcome!

Sorry if I misunderstood the story feedback area.

 

[Pure]

Question for Etoile:

Suppose you wrote a story about some 'vanilla' people, and a 'vanilla' potential critic wrote:

I'm not interested in exploring how kinky* people write about vanilla* people. I don't mind discussing their opinions about us (vanillas), but this story stuff bores me. {see original wording, below}

Would that seem like a fair comment to you? Can a straight person write well about 'gay/lesbian' characters? Vice versa?

Can imagination fill the gap if you(author) are not exactly the sort/category you write about?

My own view is that there aren't two categories of people, vanilla and kinky; nor even man and women; the world is of grays, not black and whites. We all have bits of, characteristics of everyone else, straight, kinky, saint, or serial killer; the good novelist, besides research, draws on those inner parts of him/ herself to evoke all kinds of human beings.



-----

Etoile, originally wrote:

I'm not interested in exploring how vanilla people write about kinky people. I don't mind discussing their opinions about us, but this story stuff bores me.

 

[InnerDarkness]

I believe Etoile penned a story about hetero sex...and I thought it was pretty good!

Tell me again the point of this thread...I keep getting lost...

 

[Esclava]

I believe Etoile penned a story about hetero sex...and I thought it was pretty good!

Tell me again the point of this thread...I keep getting lost...

I'm with you, ID... I thought the point was to share our experiences as they pertain to other people's visions of us as members of the BDSM society. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.....

Esclava

 

[Etoile]

I'm with you, ID... I thought the point was to share our experiences as they pertain to other people's visions of us as members of the BDSM society. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.....

That's what the thread title would lead one to believe, yes, but Pure originally started it to discuss a few stories.

 

[Esclava]

That's what the thread title would lead one to believe, yes, but Pure originally started it to discuss a few stories.

My apologies, it appears I'm in the wrong thread. As I have not finished even my first story, perhaps I am not qualified to offer an opinion on one. Thanks!

Esclava

 

[Etoile]

Question for Etoile:

Suppose you wrote a story about some 'vanilla' people, and a 'vanilla' potential critic wrote:

I'm not interested in exploring how kinky* people write about vanilla* people. I don't mind discussing their opinions about us (vanillas), but this story stuff bores me. {see original wording, below}

Would that seem like a fair comment to you? Can a straight person write well about 'gay/lesbian' characters? Vice versa?

Can imagination fill the gap if you(author) are not exactly the sort/category you write about?

My own view is that there aren't two categories of people, vanilla and kinky; nor even man and women; the world is of grays, not black and whites. We all have bits of, characteristics of everyone else, straight, kinky, saint, or serial killer; the good novelist, besides research, draws on those inner parts of him/ herself to evoke all kinds of human beings.

I'm not sure it works that way. There is no broader vanilla culture for me to get or not get. Kink is a specific subculture that can be misunderstood.

As for a straight person writing about gay or lesbian characters, I personally think it takes more an understanding of men and women rather than an understanding of gays and lesbians. We can all do the same things with each other, so unless you're specifically writing about an element of gay culture, it should be pretty easy provided the author knows about their subjects. (An example would be writing about what goes on in a gay bar without ever having been to one or even read about them.)

And as ID pointed out, I've written about straight characters. I think it's absolutely possible. It's also possible for lesbians to write about gay men and vice versa - in fact Carol Queen has edited a book called Switch Hitters: Lesbians Write Gay Male Erotica and Gay Men Write Lesbian Erotica. I haven't read it, but it's on my list to get.

 

[Pure]

Hi Esclava,

Originally posted by Esclava
I'm with you, ID... I thought the point** was to share our experiences as they pertain to other people's visions of us as members of the BDSM society. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Etoile said,
//That's what the thread title would lead one to believe, yes, but Pure originally started it to discuss a few stories.//


Esclava, that sounds about right with the addition that the 'vision' be expressed in fiction. So why not give it a shot. How does Debbie's vision of a 'sub' in her 'Sandy' character pertain to any of your experiences as a slave/sub or whatever; in particular to your discovery of your basic leanings?

Etoile has her unique 'take' on things in this thread, including its location, (lack of) interest to her, etc. The thread title, however, imo is consonant with what's going on, sniping and score settling aside.

I see no sense in Etoiles' "BUT Pure started it to discuss a few stories". The stories were to be the vehicle for accessing other's views, not just of 'us' but of certain unusual or 'deviate' sexual motivations and feelings. Besides Perd, I definitely had Killer M's story in mind, but haven't yet heard from KM.

I'm open to any other 'vanilla authored' stories as ways of learning about, reacting to, and maybe giving constructive criticism regarding how bdsm-motivated persons, including the 'lifestyle' community are seen. And this, as esclava says, would be in terms of ones own knowledge and experience. For various reasons only one or two persons have undertaken that, so far.

Debbie has kindly been the first volunteer, and has yet to receive much; bearing the brunt of some people's wish to settle old scores with the Lord of the Files, here.

Esclava, I hope this clears thing up a bit, and do feel free to post reactions to the story in terms of your own experiences, and your general assessment of it as a piece of erotic literature with a particular focus.

Best,

J.

**Since it's a public thread, 'the point' is not simply set by me or anyone. Above is my intention, and the thread will have its 'point' to those who contribute, or it will die or be mortally nit picked or whatever the gods and goddesses decree.

 

[Etoile]

Etoile has her unique 'take' on things in this thread, including its location, (lack of) interest to her, etc. The thread title, however, imo is consonant with what's going on, sniping and score settling aside.

I see no sense in Etoiles' "BUT Pure started it to discuss a few stories". The stories were to be the vehicle for accessing other's views, not just of 'us' but of certain unusual or 'deviate' sexual motivations and feelings. Besides Perd, I definitely had Killer M's story in mind, but haven't yet heard from KM.

Yes, perhaps I'm biased, but I don't see where I'm being non-sensical. Esclava thought we were discussing experiences; I pointed out that we're discussing stories. If I was wrong about your motivation for posting the thread, just say so and leave it at that.

 

[Esclava]

Hi Esclava,

...Esclava, I hope this clears thing up a bit, and do feel free to post reactions to the story in terms of your own experiences, and your general assessment of it as a piece of erotic literature with a particular focus.

Best,

J.

...

Thanks for the clarification, Pure. Thanks for volunteering the story, Debbie.

Being a visual person, I "see" what I read and if I can't "see" what is being described, then you've lost me. There are many places where you capture a true visual picture in your descriptions ["Absentmindedly she washed her pussy ... herself release" ]. I can actually see in my mind's eye everything she does in that shower.

Unfortunately, as a sub, the story asks me to suspend an incredible amount of disbelief. I did not travel out of the country to meet him, but your story depicts how I, naively, met the dom that caused me two years of unhappiness and pain. Knowing what I do now, I would have Sandy ask more questions of him as a Master. It appears she simply accepts his word that he is a Master and walks right out of her life into his.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with doing what she did - the way she did it, but it seems to me that she gave up her independence far too easily - to a man she didn't know and had only seen in a picture he sent to her. In a perfect world, that might work; but in this world, I believe we only paint pictures of victims when we don't allow them the common sense to take the precautions that we, as members of the BDSM society, advocate.

Less critically, please read it for continuity of grammar and correct singular/plural noun agreement (Grammar and structure are my trade and it hurts me to read either of them used incorrectly).

Thanks for the story.

Esclava

 

[Pure]

(bump)
This thread has been moved here by a decision of Laurel. The topic will be broadened to include a look at any SM writings, but the emphasis will be on authors' attempts to imagine and portray practices in which they are not, or minimally, involved.

J.

 

[Omni]

I followed this thread when it was posted in BDSM Talk, all the hostilities and all, which was a shame.

My concern and point now is that I do not understand WHY it was moved.

The whole point to the thread, whether you agree peoples freely posted stories on Literotica can be used or not, was to have people from the BDSM community read vanilla writers stories on "their" lifestyle and comment on it. Not have other authors in the authors hangout comment on it, and you will find BDSM lifestylers here, but not like in the BDSM forum, which I am sure was the entire point.

To the powers that be: It was silly to move this, it should have lived or died on its own.

Maybe I need to go back and read the BDSM Talk rules ect.

But it is obvious by example here alone that it is not against the forum rules to post a story or parts there of, but it is apparently against the forum rules to do so in the BDSM Talk forums. And, if that last part IS the case then there are several other threads In the BDSM forums, although off the front pages, that need to be moved.

Omni

 

[Etoile]

Maybe I need to go back and read the BDSM Talk rules ect.

But it is obvious by example here alone that it is not against the forum rules to post a story or parts there of, but it is apparently against the forum rules to do so in the BDSM Talk forums. And, if that last part IS the case then there are several other threads In the BDSM forums, although off the front pages, that need to be moved.

I don't think the BDSM forum has special rules of this kind. That kind of rule - whether or not stories can be quoted without their author's permission - would be something that would be forum-wide, IMHO, not specific to any one section.

 

[Esclava]

As I am not an author, moving this thread to this place excludes me any input I might offer.

Good luck, Pure, in attaining what was originally desired from this thread.

Esclava

 

[Omni]

I don't think the BDSM forum has special rules of this kind. That kind of rule - whether or not stories can be quoted without their author's permission - would be something that would be forum-wide, IMHO, not specific to any one section.

Obviously, by moving the thread but not umm, saying a word or deleting quoted stories within this thread, it was "ruled" that stories on Literotica can be quoted in large or small or whole parts with or without the authors permission.


Which, btw is what I would expect.

However, by moving the thread it seems to say that discussions of stories or literature in the BDSM Forum is off limits.


Omni

 

[catalina_francisco]

Nothing worse than unsatisfied curiousity, so in empathy and understanding I am making this post as the moderator from BDSM Talk/Cafe who had to handle an avalanche of complaints from posters, unlike any amount on one single issue I had experienced before.

http://members.literotica.com:81/members/help_files/terms_of_service.shtml ....perhaps re-reading what all members agree to when signing up to Literotica will begin to explain the issue many have had with this thread, especially in relation to Rules 10 and 12 which prohibit posting anything you do not own the copyright to without permission of the owner (author in this case), and the prohibited use of threads to post harassment toward other users which this thread was viewed as by the majority. Pure has admitted openly he did not seek permission as he knew he would not get it from the posters he chose to use the work of because he did not share a good online relationship with them.

The decision was not mine to make alone, nor was it basically my decision to see it moved, but as moderator complaints cannot be ignored and have to be dealt with. It has been acknowledged their is both breach of copyright and rules, but the decision was made to move the thread, not delete most of it's content. I trust this answers a few of the questions some have in relation to the thread movement.

Catalina

 

[TheEarl]

Interesting to read most of this thread.

Pure: Never mind whether you have a grievance with Pear, or any prior history, isn't it simply manners to ask, even if you know she'd say no? And surely if you know that someone doesn't want their story discussed, wouldn't it be polite to leave it alone? There are a few other authors out on Lit, I'm sure you could find one to suit your needs.

I don't think it's a matter of grudges of legality. It's a matter of manners and I think you could have done better.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

Holy fucking shit!

I had no idea all this CRAP was going on.

Anyway, it was interesting (if a little disturbing) reading for an hour.

On the subject of those who write within categories of which they have no idea: that is a very broad and sweeping statement.

I can't remember the last time I was enticed to a location by mind reading aliens, and subjected to sexual abuse by said pseudopods, but I've written a damn novel about it!

As for BDSM, yes I do know what I'm talking about, and I know what it's like to submit, but I've never written a BDSM story. Not saying I don't plan to, though.

Hmmm.

Why don't we look into nonconsent/reluctance and talk about people's experiences and "card carrying membership" into that particular group and "lifestyle", thus giving them the authority to do justice to writing a story within that category?

I know my mind is a bit fucked up, and I also know why. I also fully comprehend why I wrote a nonconsent/reluctance story, and my motivation behind it. But, that ain't open for discussion.

What about anyone else?

Lou

 

[Pure]

Hi Lou,
you said in part, {full statement at the end}

Why don't we look into nonconsent/reluctance and talk about people's experiences and "card carrying membership" into that particular group and "lifestyle", thus giving them the authority to do justice to writing a story within that category?

My initial posting clearly implied that 'authority' or 'doing justice' HAD occurred in a number of imaginative works. I said, roughly,
There have been successes through imagination.

I perhaps used some phrase suggesting 'us' or 'them', but in fact I think people are all over the map, just as with the 'gay' issue. Most people have a touch of the deviations, as noted by Freud and others, and the amount of practice varies a lot. Kinsey found a spectrum, for all practices: that homosexual acts could occur once in a lifetime, or thrice a day in adulthood (roughly speaking). Perhaps I will rephrase a bit.

There are well known examples in the SM field. The author of the Story of O, Aury, says it was imagination, a fantasy her lover would like to read, and that's a classic work. Aury had no acknowledged connection with any chateaus, secret "masters" societies, etc.

I would point out that the larger issue ('voice'), is coming up repeatedly now in fiction. When is the 'white man/woman's' story of Native Americans a success through imagination, and when a *literary* shortfall because of stereotypes, assumptions, and lack of knowledge.

This is not to say 'authenticity' is the only issue. I believes it's been said in the thread, that detectives or police have likely written some pretty BAD stuff on detection. OTOH, those outside the field, have written some classics; iirc I don't think Conan Doyle ever solved any crimes! Wambaugh was a detective, and is now a writer and some think that gives his books a particular 'real' flavor.

So I don't think it's irrelevant if one looks at soldiers' reactions to a war story by a non soldier; nor Black persons reactions to to white authors' stories about them, say, "Uncle Tom's Cabin."

As to your last remark,

I know my mind is a bit fucked up, and I also know why. I also fully comprehend why I wrote a nonconsent/reluctance story, and my motivation behind it. But, that ain't open for discussion.

Well, you motivation is irrelevant. But 'nonconsent' stories and concepts have several times been discussed or commented on by actual survivors of rape, date rape, forced sex etc. Yours too are open for comment, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course we know that 'fantasy' is highlighted in nonconsent stories just as in Dom/Sub stories. So "It doesn't happen that way" is NOT by itself, a valid objection to a piece of fantasy fiction. BUT there are occcasionally efforts to capture something 'real' and comments of those with experience can go to this 'reality' question, though there are many others in looking at literary merit.

I hope these issues can be talked about with a little less 'fire'; there's been enough in this thread, imo.

J.


------


Lou, in full


Holy fucking shit!

I had no idea all this CRAP was going on.

Anyway, it was interesting (if a little disturbing) reading for an hour.

On the subject of those who write within categories of which they have no idea: that is a very broad and sweeping statement.

I can't remember the last time I was enticed to a location by mind reading aliens, and subjected to sexual abuse by said pseudopods, but I've written a damn novel about it!

As for BDSM, yes I do know what I'm talking about, and I know what it's like to submit, but I've never written a BDSM story. Not saying I don't plan to, though.

Hmmm.

Why don't we look into nonconsent/reluctance and talk about people's experiences and "card carrying membership" into that particular group and "lifestyle", thus giving them the authority to do justice to writing a story within that category?

I know my mind is a bit fucked up, and I also know why. I also fully comprehend why I wrote a nonconsent/reluctance story, and my motivation behind it. But, that ain't open for discussion.

What about anyone else?

Lou