How your story sucked

[Mickie]

Re: Story Here?

Never, my question to you is: Do YOU have a story here? If you do, maybe some of us could rip it up so you can see how we feel. If you don't, then you don't need to be posting on the author's hangout anyway. And if you have a problem with what I'm saying, you can email me and tell me. Not one thing you can say can bother me.

And this is how arguments that mean absolutely nothing get started. You hurt me and now I'll hurt you, then we'll be even. But it never is even, 'cause everyone has to 'one-up' the payment. Does it really matter if Never has a story you can rip up? Seriously, SexySecretary, I have a few that I'd love to have Never attack, and, if she asked for a crit on her own work, I'd be happy to give it the same honest answers. Perhaps not so acidic, because that's just not the way I work, but just as honest.

Sorry, I have to defend the right of the readers to say what they think, whether it's complementary or not. Part of the problem is that most people are taught to be sweet and nice in public. They're afraid to say what they really think for fear of hurting someone's feelings. My feelings be damned. If I can learn from your comments and do a better job because of it, then it's worth a bruised ego.

This is a hobby to a lot of people, although it makes me cringe when a writer says, 'this is good enough and I don't want to spend the effort to improve it'. If you're among those kind of amatuer writers, then remain amateur and ignore any feedback that suggests *horrors* more work. That's fine with me. But expect people to criticise your work, and overlook the ones you don't want to deal with along with the feedback that suggest you meet for a fuck and coffee over lunch.

I have a co-author for a series of novels I'm supposedly working on. This co-author prefers to give me candy-type feedback. 'Good, keep going' because she's afraid to tell me I'm wrong and can improve. No matter what I do it's so inbred in her to pat on the back at all effort that I cannot get her to give me anything negative. Perhaps you should work on these novels with her. You'll never publish them, but it'd be 'fun', and it'd boost your ego.

If feel, very strongly, that a lot of the response the authors give on the boards to negative feedback constrains the readers from giving any feedback at all unless it's of the candied variety. In other words, it takes away from the reasons I post stories here. We're adults, and we don't need to make sure everyone wins in order to promote a good self image. We are not children in need of nurturing. (I disagree with that kind of theory, anyway.)

Now that I've rambled, thanks, Whisper, for the agreement. And I agree with Laurel -- Amen sister.

Mickie

 

[Whispersecret]

Re: Story Here?

Never...not one thing you can say can bother me.

Seems you're already bothered. Just an observation.

Also, I'm not sure it matters whether Never has any stories posted here. Her opinion as a reader is just as valid as another writer's, and it's obvious from her comments that she is savvy about storytelling techniques.

 

[Whispersecret]

Re: Re: Story Here?

If feel, very strongly, that a lot of the response the authors give on the boards to negative feedback constrains the readers from giving any feedback at all unless it's of the candied variety. In other words, it takes away from the reasons I post stories here. We're adults, and we don't need to make sure everyone wins in order to promote a good self image. We are not children in need of nurturing. (I disagree with that kind of theory, anyway.)

Not even children need false praise. It's like the opposite of crying wolf. If you praise people insincerely, and they sense that, it takes the polish off the times when you really mean it.

I maintain that direct, specific criticism, such as Mickie and I like to receive, should perhaps be reserved for people who ask for it. The only purpose I can see in criticising those who don't is to discourage them from writing anything else, and maybe to fill some psychological need in the critic. Besides, it's a waste of time to outline a story's flaws if the author doesn't give a rat's ass about it.

 

[Laurel]

To clarify...

Yes, Never's comments were pretty rough. Maybe even uncalled for. Maybe even flat-out wrong. Never's a known rabble-rouser. But that is the risk one takes when bringing your art into the light of day. It would be a lot easier on our egos if all we received were compliments and accolades and bouquets or roses, but that's not always the case.

Jerks are going to read your stories. Assholes are going to read your stories. Bitches are going to read your stories. The type of people you hate - they will read your work. But so will many wonderful thinking, feeling, insightful people. And they all may have nice things to say, or they may not have nice things to say. On the Net, as with most forms of publication, you can't pick and choose your audience.

I'm not saying all negative criticism is inherently constructive either, because it's not. But there's no way to make sure that "the right people" comment on a story, or "the right people" vote on it. With 200,000+ unique readers visiting every day (over a million unique people in a month), some of those are bound to read your work and not "get it". Sometimes that's the author's fault, and sometimes it's not. Not everyone likes Tolstoy, but that doesn't mean he's not brilliant. A certain amount of it is taste.

But I think it's wrong to discount your readers. I see some writers who position the audience as The Enemy, and I think that's unfortunate. If you're writing to please an audience (and you are, if you're posting your work for public viewing), then it's wise of you to consider every bit of criticism. Doesn't mean you have to take it to heart - just consider it. If you find, after carefully thinking about it, that following the critic's advice takes your work somewhere you don't want to go, then discard it. But to blatantly ignore every bit of negative feedback because it hurts your feelings is miss a chance at improving your writing.

It's hard, I know. I had classes in college where we'd sit in groups and rip apart essays and stories that we'd worked on for months. Everyone left in tears at one point or another. But that's why not everyone writes - because it IS difficult, and requires you to put a part of yourself on display. But if you can do it, and do it well, then you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

 

[SpectreT]

Let's see....

Someone with the wit and perspicacity to perform such a well-done critique (and compared to some of what I've heard about my non-erotic writing, that was candy-coated, sweetness and light) has ruffled some feathers. I've read the phrase "too acid" several times, and can't think why.... I guess, based on the posts here in this thread, I'm a Writer with a capital "W". I'd love it if my work moved somebody to point out the flaws I might have missed in my literortia baby (Tuesday). All I've gotten is happy feedback, and that worries me a little. Nobody's work is so good that everyone likes it. The closest I got to criticism was from cymbidia, and she offered to edit the next one, whenever I finish the blasted thing. I keep wanting it to be Wednesday already, but there's a whole lot of ground to cover before then...

 

[SexySecretary]

You're Wrong

I am not bothered. It's not my story that has been ripped up. I know mine are good, because I've already experienced paper publication under my real name, nationwide. This is my first try at erotica.

I felt it right to defend other writers at Literotica. Most of us have jobs and do this for fun, unlike others who sit at the computer for indefinite periods of time.

 

[SpectreT]

I guess it's because I work in the book business (at the retail end) and have tried a few times to get into print that I didn't see even the potential for a problem with this kind of criticism. And like I said, compared to some of the things editors and agents have said about my work, this was sweetness and light. 'Course, I've also gotten better in part because those editors flayed my literary hide. The trick is not to love your little tale, unless you're writing it for yourself. Another part is to have no ego to bruise. The rest is a determination to learn and grow, if you want an audience to like what you do. Then again, you've seen print, and I haven't, so I might just be talking a bunch of crap here. And I posted to this thread partly to say, "Keep Trying, and learn from the 'acid wit' of your detractors. They may not always be right, but at least it's another opinion, and feedback is the only way to grow in your craft." I also posted partly to say that I've been lambasted, and it doesn't hurt so badly that I'd ever want a crew of people to rise to my defense and coddle my poor ego. I haven't heard from the author on this one, so I don't know if this was the killer bullet, or just more grist for the mill. Time will tell.

 

[Whispersecret]

SexyS, we're cool. I defend the underdog from time to time too.

 

[Guest]

I , for one....

To screw… or not to screw?
Forever are’t though my cumsucking fiend?

1st of all – negative criticism vs. “I really liked that. It was super wonderful!! More please” is FAR more useful than the later. As a writer, we want to improve. If you’re a GOOD writer, you’ll take negative comments that SAY something – and make them useful (there were times when I verbally YELLED at people to please god give me SOMEthing to work from. I’m not here for ego boost. COMMENT!!!!!!!). ‘Never’ definitely bludgeoned the guy, (and I disagree a bit on porn not belonging of ‘heavy’ thinking) but he gave his reasons for it.
As a writer, I’d consider that a critique worth reading. And something to think about.

PS. This statement clears ‘Never’ completely of any malice: “The story is about the characters, not what the author thinks about what's happening to the characters.”
Bada bing.

‘Skeptisaurus’ furthered that claim.

And no – I haven’t read the story (I’m just here for press ; P).

 

[XXplorher]

ooopps

those are my comments above (I, for one). boo-boo.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Vanity vs. Arrogance

To expect nothing but positive feedback is obviously vain and unrealistic. Ego-strokes are not the only order of the day, as anyone posting their work should expect. And, it doesn't seem like the debate about this thread starter is really about negative feedback as much as it is about tone and intent.

To treat someone callously or to declare yourself an expert on the subject of who qualifies as a real writer is plain arrogant. Similarly, declaring "that's the way it is in the 'real' world" doesn't excuse an utter lack of decorum and tact. You are still responsible for your own actions. Rude is still rude.

As "feedback," the thread starter is likely to fail. In my teaching experience with novice writers, gross insensitivity is unlikely to inspire improvement. As a pot-stirring bit of provocation from a self-declared shit disturber, it works just fine.

I suppose it's just a matter of perspective.

 

[Mickie]

--Quote from SexySecretary--
You're Wrong
I am not bothered. It's not my story that has been ripped up. I know mine are good, because I've already experienced paper publication under my real name, nationwide. This is my first try at erotica.

I felt it right to defend other writers at Literotica. Most of us have jobs and do this for fun, unlike others who sit at the computer for indefinite periods of time. --End Quote--

You did sound a bit ‘bothered’. It may not have been your story, but you reacted. That, in essence, was probably Never’s purpose in creating the thread. *Grins* A little drama to enhance a dull day. But it did give me a bit of a forum to vent my own frustrations.

Not to criticise here, but publication is no determination of whether your work is good or bad. I’ve read some really bad writing that got published, and read some really good work that should have been published and wasn’t accepted. The definition of a writer is not ‘he who publishes’ but ‘he who writes’. And, if you take it seriously, then writing is not just a ‘fun little hobby’ but something you put a part of yourself into.

Defending other writers is fine, but this kind of defence will only scare off the readers from giving real feedback. Ettiquete from other writers is pretty much expected, but a reader might not have any idea that ettiquete is required. If we keep attacking the feedback, then the feedback will become so sugary it loses value. This is my concern. Don’t ruin it for the authors who require honest feedback. It’s the author’s job to pick and choose what feedback has value to them, anyway. Ignore that which offends, and praise those that give you what you need. Positive reinforcement, I guess.

The last line of your post irked me, personally. Remember those women who list their jobs as ‘homemaking’ because they thought of it as a real, honest to God job? I have a job. It’s writing. Sitting at the computer for hours on end creating strange new worlds. It’s a career, just as much as being a doctor or lawyer. I write erotica for fun, and to hone my skills. (And I’ve made a penny or three at it, as well.) I take summers off from writing on more main stream fiction, because I hate summers and it’s a chore to write anything in hot weather. Erotica is easy for me, so I write that to keep my hand in. I found this site, and, although it doesn’t pay me for my writing, the feedback helps me to keep focused. Which is why I have to defend the reader’s right to offer feedback of any sort. If not for that, I wouldn’t put anything up on this site.

I understand that the main source of authors here are people who do this as a hobby. Sometimes I get carried away with my own passion for the craft. I don’t think in the normal way, you see. I think in sentence structure and paragraphs, even dialogue. I write in my sleep, during sex, and during every moment I have any thoughts at all. Walking down the street, I’m looking at the way other people move, talk, react, etc; building on characters in my head. The reason I post stories here is to enhance my ability to put a verbal interpretation on paper. Without the negative feedback, acid or not, I would have no reason to be here. So, perhaps you can understand my frustration when a reader is attacked for giving feedback in their own style. Perhaps not.

There are all kinds of people on this site, and that includes people like me. All I’m asking is not to take the value away from it for people like me. It’s just as bad as taking the fun aspect from those who write as a hobby. I ignore the candy-coated feedback, which really gives me nothing but an ego boost, and the hobbyists can ignore anything that doesn’t give them what they need.


Mickie

 

[XXplorher]

Yup

<B>“Not to criticize here, but publication is no determination of whether your work is good or bad. I’ve read some really bad writing that got published, and read some really good work that should have been published and wasn’t accepted. The definition of a writer is not ‘he who publishes’ but ‘he who writes’. And, if you take it seriously, then writing is not just a ‘fun little hobby’ but something you put a part of yourself into.”</B>

Here, here!! I want to add something to that…….. but I couldn’t say it better, eh. Simple applause.

<B>“I have to defend the reader’s right to offer feedback of any sort. If not for that, I wouldn’t put anything up on this site.”</B>

I think it should be noted that writers here at Literotica are can ONLY hope for that purpose. You can’t demand a reaction. BUT, readers, it is SO very important to take a moment to reach out to an author that has reached you. All you have to do is dabble a few sentences as to what affected you. Personally, I don’t take much success from simple praise. If you can possibly answer to WHY a story was effective (or ineffective)… it’s crucial to the writer. We’re lost without it (or patting ourselves on the back, which is also useless). There was a time when I had 4 stories in the top 20 (way back). That lasted 6 months. I received maybe 5 Emails in that time regarding my stuff. I found that oddly unsatisfying, and contradicting. All I could determine was “I’m super neat. I write neeto stuff that people seem to like.” I wasn’t able to build on it. I only knew its effectiveness from what *I* found effective.
It’s like having sex with yourself (which I do very well, eh). I’d rather have sex with YOU – and know what I did right (or wrong).
So please, send the writer a reason. It’s the only hope or expectation they have for writing it in the first place

<B>“Walking down the street, I’m looking at the way other people move, talk, react, etc; building on characters in my head.”</B>

You mean there are others?! I thought I was alone in that fascination. (Ooops, this is turning into recognition of the poster, rather than subject. Nice job, dude)

 

[Enchanttress]

Amateur

I as an Amateur would greatly appreciate someone taking my stories and gutting them. Explaining to me and showing me what I have done wrong.

The old cliche "to little, to late" comes to mind, when I think of my pride when I submitted my stories.

I have been writing these little stories, for the past couple years. Mostly for the enjoyment of a select few, and myself. Deciding that I would like to see how my writing would stand in a public forum, I went ahead, without so much as a second thought, after just a brief, spell correction, submitted them. Many of them for that matter. By the time I got my first anonymous critique of one of my stories, all had already been approved for show.

I would welcome even public display, of my story being critiqued. How am I to learn if there is no feedback?

Whether the feedback is good or bad, its still a learning experience.

As I said before, I stand in awe of the writers here on this forum. In my opinion, some of the best I have ever had the pleasure of reading.

Thanks for letting me express my views. And by the way, isn't that what this board is for? To express you're views. I think that is what Never is doing.

Enchanttress AKA Lil

 

[Guest]

More than happy to have a look see....

I'll look forward to reading and telling you what I think...(for what its worth kiddo)

I "assumed" that you left a link to your stories...but it didn't appear to be working...or correct.

Throw it back at me....and I'll have a look see and tell you what I think....

And I promise......I'll be gentle.

To sleep........perchance to dream - William Shakespear

 

[Enchanttress]

Story link

Thanks for the offer!

Here is the link: http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=45265

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

A professional tip: The secret to getting a quality critique is asking quality questions.

Take my word for it. I've been in a billion moderated critique writers workshops. I know everything there is to know about critique (AND about making the perfect BLT, but that's another thread...)

If you get unsolicited critique you'll find about 5% of the comments useful, as far as improving your writing goes. The rest is either ego-boosting or bashing, and should not be confused with "critique".

If you solicit critique you must be specific about what kind of critique you want. IF you ask for general comments along the lines of "Hey all! Read my new story and let me know what you think!", be prepared to get a whole lot of information that may or may not be good, but will most definitely not be of very much value to you. (Again, we're discussing feedback in regards to helping you improve your writing, not your ego.)

Rather try something more specific like:

"I just finished a story and would like to know if you think the protagonist is a sympathetic character?"

"Check out my story. It's really just a treatment right now, spelling and prose will come later. I'd like to expand it, and I only wnat to know if the premise is intriguing."

"Hey I'm new to erotica and I'd like to know if my first story suffers from too much exposition?"

Etcetera.

Of course you'll still get some meandering, usless comments, but mostly you will get the kind of comments you're looking for, and a minimum of dross. The more specific you are about what you want and what level the piece is at the more valuable your feedback will be.

I know, I know...you just want to know "how people like it and stuff." This is an amateurish stance, and, you know what, a lot of writers here are amateurs and that's fine. Ask for "general comments" if you like. Just be prepared to get what you ask for.

If you want feedback that will improve your writing don't worry so much about what people are saying, concentrate more on what you're asking.

 

[Whispersecret]

Good idea, Dix, but it hasn't worked for me. I've asked specific questions before. "Did I overdo the pride thing with the hero?" "Did I get across the heroine's sorrow well enough?" And so on. Most of the time I never got a direct answer to my questions.

On the flip side, when authors asked ME specific questions, I sometimes lost sight of my answers when I was distracted by other items that glared at me, like poor sentence structure, a loss of believability, etc.

And on a side note, I've discovered that I've learned quite a bit from critiquing other people's work. Somehow, seeing errors in work that isn't your own helps you see those same errors in stuff you've written, or at least heightens your awareness of those errors.

 

[Guest]

Out of my dreams I'll go, into a dream...with you.

What a lovely sentiment Whisper......

I couldn't agree more with you on this one though. I too have asked for "specific" help asking questions. And then got something else entirely.

And then I began seriously reviewing other writers stories...saw the error's and then went back to find the same things in my own that I had over looked. So that has certainly helped.

But then I also noticed....I forgot what it was like to read another writers story, and simply enjoy it for what they were trying to say rather than discecting every single sentence. And suddenly I realized, I wasn't really enjoying myself anymore, let alone improving my writing.

So.....I've decided to simply read and enjoy. If I start a story and it simply doesn't turn me on, then maybe I'll finish reading it and look for the errors. Otherwise.........maybe it's simply time to light a candle, put on some music, sit back and relax....

Ya know?

To sleep.........perchance to dream - William Shakespear

I am...........

 

[SexySecretary]

Since I'm Entitled . . .

Since I'm entitled to share my opinion, I can say this and I think I'm right about it. Literotica would not have accepted my stories unless they were pretty good, right? I've lost count of how many I've submitted and have been posted, but I remember that one of mine was rejected. Laurel had her reasons, and I totally respect that. I hold no ill will and I wasn't even bothered.

And if someone wants to rip up my stories, fine, as long as they're not 'When The Electricity Gets Shut Off,' 'My First Time at Anal,' or 'Our First Time.' Those three are stories that come straight from the heart of a young newlywed and show the beautiful love of a couple.

And out of curiosity, has anyone received feedback from an anonymous source that says you don't know the difference between reality and fantasy and that you're going to ruin your marriage? How do they even know we're married? It's single or attached in our profiles, not single or married. I'd just like to know if anybody else has gotten anything like that.

SexySecretary

 

[Whispersecret]

Re: Out of my dreams I'll go, into a dream...with you.

What a lovely sentiment Whisper......

It's from a song from the musical, "Oklahoma."

But then I also noticed....I forgot what it was like to read another writers story, and simply enjoy it for what they were trying to say rather than discecting every single sentence. And suddenly I realized, I wasn't really enjoying myself anymore, let alone improving my writing.

I don't seem to have that problem with reading stories, mostly because I don't read many stories here anymore. (Busy writing, don'tcha know!) But I DO have that problem, big time, with movies. I can't help but notice the formulaic addition of the love story that isn't quite pulled off in the action flick, or the clumsy addition of exposition in the beginning dialogue. I'm not involved in show business at all, but I've come to have a pretty good grasp of what a good story requires.

When I do read a story that calls to the editing portion of my brain, it's usually because the author has made just one too many "errors." I can take a certain amount and still enjoy a story, but there comes a point where the scale tips and I either give up and find something else, or read on and pick it apart.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I've done editing and I've given my opinion to people who've asked it. I've never done what Never did, give negative feedback just because. I've just put up a link or two on the feedback board to stories that I really liked.

Interestingly enough... I've reduced three people to tears with my editing and sent at least another dozen into a serious fit of anger over the editing and putting up my opinion on the feedback board after it had been requested.


Some people can't handle honest criticism. I'm blunt, not brutal. I have never made the phrase "You've got a good story here, but..." I delineate what I like and what I don't like. I give a reason for both.

If you can't handle criticism or rejection, then never put your work where it will be criticized. That means in public viewing. Never's actions may have been right, wrong, malicious, insightful, whatever. It is her right. It is also someone else's right to disagree with her. However, discounting her opinion because she's not opening herself up to the same criticism is rather idiotic.

Never is something that no one else on this thread, aside from Laurel, is. She holds that sacred post that none of us can. Never is a reader. We're author/readers. We know what it's like to get smacked by negative feedback and we can sympathize with the author who gets it. We can even get ourselves in the place to defend it. We cannot separate our reader selves from our writer selves because we are in empathy with writers. Never is only a reader. She either likes a story or she doesn't. She is who we are writing for, because her kind outnumber our kind. We want to make readers like what we write. This is true if you are a dabbler who writes as a hobby or a serious author who writes more seriously. We learn what readers like from readers.

 

[Natalie Nessus]

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I'm having that tattooed on my ass.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Okay, maybe I'll just make a bumper sticker.