I Feel Like Starting An Argument: Writing a fanfiction based on ANY story you've ever read is perfectly fine***

[MediocreAuthor]

Things I think are wrong: stealing

This is a rather facile argument, considering that in your scenario you describe them as hating something enough to devolve into an ALL CAPS TANTRUM. You can't just walk back from that kind of anger!
Here's another ridiculous scenario, since you enjoy NC content...
"Nearly everyone loves babies! Pregnancy is perfectly natural! You should be flattered that I found you attractive enough to deposit my sequel in!"

Aside from the fact that I found that horrible rape argument low-key, kinda hot , I can see your side of the argument, if you consider using someone borrowing your ideas without your permission as rape.

That said, let's continue with these false equivalencies, because most people are fine with fan fiction featuring popular, massive franchises.

"It's perfectly fine that I raped you, ma'am! You're a famous porn star! Raping normal women is wrong, but a big content creator like you? THAT'S acceptable!"

 

[AlinaX]

"Nearly everyone loves babies! Pregnancy is perfectly natural! You should be flattered that I found you attractive enough to deposit my sequel in!"

Okay, now I'm feeling severely icked.

 

[Bamagan]

But the character needs a nice merlot as they exhale the smoke

Just you wait... she's gonna shit all over your legacy by making them swallow a zinfandel.
*shudders*

 

[Bamagan]

Okay, now I'm feeling severely icked.

 

[Bazzle]

Just you wait... she's gonna shit all over your legacy by making them swallow a zinfandel.
*shudders*

*Takes notes*

 

[ThatNewGuy]

I write a story, and then later on they find it and hate it, how does what I've done hurt them? It doesn't.

How could it? How could it possibly hurt them?

"OH NO! SOMEONE WROTE A STORY BASED ON MINE, BECAUSE THEY LOVED MY STORY, AND THEY USED ALL MY CHARACTERS! AND I DON'T LIKE THE STORY! NOW I AM GOING TO DIE FROM

We're at an impasse. You are claiming that using someone's work doesn't hurt them because... you say it doesn't hurt them. It's clear that others in this thread would be hurt if you used their work without permission (even after what you believe has been a good faith effort to obtain that permission). You believe that their hurt is unfounded and silly and choose to dismiss it. So we will just agree to disagree.

 

[AlinaX]

An author has a choice: to be flattered by the idea that someone has not only read their stories but feels passionate enough about them to write something themselves; or they can feel threatened by the loss of control over their characters and world that this represents.

 

[Bamagan]

Things I think are wrong: stealing

Aside from the fact that I found that horrible rape argument low-key, kinda hot , I can see your side of the argument, if you consider using someone borrowing your ideas without your permission as rape.

That said, let's continue with these false equivalencies, because most people are fine with fan fiction featuring popular, massive franchises.

"It's perfectly fine that I raped you, ma'am! You're a famous porn star! Raping normal women is wrong, but a big content creator like you? THAT'S acceptable!"

It's not borrowing if you can't give it back, and we're talking about more than mere ideas, as the property in question is a particular expression that the author spent time and effort on arranging until they achieved some degree of personal satisfaction with the result. Maybe they're petty for wanting things to be just so, but it's their house.

No, copyright infringement is not as severe a transgression as rape. But it is not so insignificant a transgression as to be treated as nothing, or even as a compliment.

For the record, I concur with you in regards to fanfiction in general, and find your analogy to be apt, although I kind of think you may believe it's too hyperbolic.

 

[AlinaX]

I'm confused. Are you saying fan fiction is always bad?

 

[Bamagan]

An author has a choice: to be flattered by the idea that someone has not only read their stories but feels passionate enough about them to write something themselves; or they can feel threatened by the loss of control over their characters and world that this represents.

Could be both! I might find the idea of being emulated flattering in an abstract sense, but the execution unsavory and unwanted, especially if the person in question has taken the story and crossed some boundary I didn't want to cross. The idea that it should always, or even just usually, be seen as flattery strikes me as wrong, akin to the idea that any person who pays you what they consider to be a compliment ('Nice tits!') is therefore deserving of recognition or indulgence.

 

[lustychimera]

Just keep changing, adding, and removing things until you're pretty sure you're out of lawsuit territory and then run with it.

You don't even have to do that. All you have to do is be "transformative" with the content. A parody is transformative enough--think of those Youtube reacts videos. They play someone else's IP, often without permission, but their little bit of commentary is enough to "transform" the work to allow them to monetize it.

Fanfiction is generally illegal, assuming a valid copyright exists.

That's not true at all--at least in the US. It's only illegal if it's monetized. AO3 has lawyers that constantly fight for this, and so far, the site is still up. It's not operating illegally. It's right there out in the open.

As far as the "valid copyright" goes, a work is your valid IP the moment it's created.

 

[Bamagan]

I'm confused. Are you saying fan fiction is always bad?

I guess you're asking me?
Bad in the sense of illegal? Then yes, assuming there's a valid copyright and no formal understanding that derivative works are tolerated or encouraged. It's not necessarily a crime, and not necessarily a serious injury, but still generally the kind of thing the law hopes to discourage. Or perhaps more accurately, the kind of thing the law allows the copyright holder to try to discourage, if it matters to them. Many don't bother, because it's often true that they suffer little provable harm by non-monetized, small scale scribbles posted online, and even if they have the resources to sic a law firm on the offender, they may not consider it worthwhile. But now we're back at the beginning of the thread again regarding just how to interpret a lack of litigation and how some people see that as de facto permission.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

We're at an impasse. You are claiming that using someone's work doesn't hurt them because... you say it doesn't hurt them. It's clear that others in this thread would be hurt if you used their work without permission (even after what you believe has been a good faith effort to obtain that permission). You believe that their hurt is unfounded and silly and choose to dismiss it. So we will just agree to disagree.

Good news, we aren't ENTIRELY at an impasse. You see, I think that people's hurt over the "misuse" of their IP is unfounded and silly, BUT I would not act on that knowledge.

It is very, VERY unlikely that I will ever write another fanfic at all, let alone without expressed consent. (I got consent the first time, and worked along with the original author in order to stay true to their vision).

I'm willing to go to a place I consider above and beyond for courtesy's sake.

---

I feel as though I stand in a room of arachnophobes, holding a cool tarantula.

"It's harmless," I say. "There are no recorded deaths from this type of tarantula in all of human history. It's bite is less painful than a bee sting."

The arachnophobic people continue to cower against the far wall. "Get it away from us! It's terrible! Awful! Vile and repulsive! "

I shrug. "Okay, it really wouldn't hurt you. But I can respect your feelings." So I leave.

---

See what I mean?

The idea that fanfiction is harmful is ridiculous, and I will continue to say so forever... but I won't intentionally upset anyone. I can show empathy

 

[Paddleboardpnw]

If I wrote a story, or developed a character enough for someone to actually want to include in their story I would honesty be very happy.
That being said I am not a professional writer and just do this all for the fun of it.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

If I wrote a story, or developed a character enough for someone to actually want to include in their story I would honesty be very happy.
That being said I am not a professional writer and just do this all for the fun of it.

That's the right attitude

 

[Bamagan]

That's not true at all--at least in the US. It's only illegal if it's monetized. AO3 has lawyers that constantly fight for this, and so far, the site is still up. It's not operating illegally. It's right there out in the open.

As far as the "valid copyright" goes, a work is your valid IP the moment it's created.

The relevant US code (17 section 106.2) does not require monetization as a factor related to the illegal creation or distribution of derivative works. If this AO3 requires constant fighting with lawyers, though, that suggests that their position is not legally unassailable.

 

[Plathfan]

We're at an impasse. You are claiming that using someone's work doesn't hurt them because... you say it doesn't hurt them. It's clear that others in this thread would be hurt if you used their work without permission (even after what you believe has been a good faith effort to obtain that permission). You believe that their hurt is unfounded and silly and choose to dismiss it. So we will just agree to disagree.

But if this issue is so important to you, why is it so difficult to put a small sign on the door? Why take an eternal risk?

Should anyone who has ever created a modern adaptation of a Shakespeare work be ashamed of themselves because they never received explicit permission? And here, it's not even an adaptation but fan fiction that uses only the framework, inevitably creating something different from the source.

On a free platform, any derivative work with credit is nothing more than free advertising, and there is no such thing as bad advertising. I don't understand why some people immediately attribute malice to those who pay them tribute.

Stories are eternal, but people are not. The only viable reason I can find for people to not declare their complete objection to any future use of their materials is that they are aware of the long-term implications for their heritage.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

The relevant US code (17 section 106.2) does not require monetization as a factor related to the illegal creation or distribution of derivative works. If this AO3 requires constant fighting with lawyers, though, that suggests that their position is not legally unassailable.

It's because in the terms of copyright law fanfiction is a grey area. A lot of it is transformative work that just uses characters and location. Some people do retell the same story rewritten on their terms. I'd like to add my examples again; Twilight and 50 Shades, both are rewritten fanfiction works to sell. If I recall... Twilight is True Blood fanfiction, and 50 Shades is Twilight fanfiction. Some fanfics are widely known and have not been attacked. My Immortal(if you know, you know) is probably the most famous fanfic, it's a Harry Potter fan fic. I think Rawlings wanted mothing to do with it.

 

[ThatNewGuy]

But if this issue is so important to you, why is it so difficult to put a small sign on the door? Why take an eternal risk?

Because I shouldn't have to. The absence of a "don't use my work" sign on my door does not give others permission to use my work. It's an accepted social norm that if you would like to use something that belongs to someone else, you should first ask and obtain their permission.

Should anyone who has ever created a modern adaptation of a Shakespeare work be ashamed of themselves because they never received explicit permission?

No. Bill's work is in the public domain and has been for some time.

On a free platform, any derivative work with credit is nothing more than free advertising, and there is no such thing as bad advertising.

This is your opinion. I respectfully disagree. It's more than just "free advertising." Even if it were merely free advertising, the original creator should have a say in how their work is advertised and by whom.

I don't understand why some people immediately attribute malice to those who pay them tribute.

I haven't read the thread carefully enough to know if anyone else is attributing malice to those who may want to use their work. I am certainly not. In any case, I would argue that intent is irrelevant. It does not matter whether someone wishes to use my work because they think it is great or because they think it's awful and want to fix it. They should obtain my permission regardless.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

An author has a choice: to be flattered by the idea that someone has not only read their stories but feels passionate enough about them to write something themselves; or they can feel threatened by the loss of control over their characters and world that this represents.

It doesn't need to be either or IMO. I think there are nuances of both approaches that authors could be okay with.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

This site has a category "Celebrities and Fanfiction"

If you think that borrowing intellectual property is wrong, you should complain.

 

[SimonDoom]

An author has a choice: to be flattered by the idea that someone has not only read their stories but feels passionate enough about them to write something themselves; or they can feel threatened by the loss of control over their characters and world that this represents.

Well, no, because you are reducing it to a choice of feelings. It doesn't have to be about one's feelings at all. It's a matter of what you think is right and wrong, irrespective of feelings. Feelings don't have to have anything to do with it.

 

[AlinaX]

Feelings have everything to do with it.

 

[AlinaX]

It doesn't need to be either or IMO. I think there are nuances of both approaches that authors could be okay with.

Yes, but ultimately the choice is between taking action against fan fiction, or allowing it through inaction. Both can be viewed as either positive or negative reactions.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Well, no, because you are reducing it to a choice of feelings. It doesn't have to be about one's feelings at all. It's a matter of what you think is right and wrong, irrespective of feelings. Feelings don't have to have anything to do with it.

In this particular case, right/wrong are pretty arbitrary.

If fanfiction is legal enough to be on the site, then it isn't safe to automatically assume it's "wrong" to do it to a fellow Lit author.

Especially if the author very well may be long dead or whatever.