I Feel Like Starting An Argument: Writing a fanfiction based on ANY story you've ever read is perfectly fine***

[KeithD]

The thing about what MA is posting is not what MA would do but what MA has either the legal right or the moral backing to do. It's that lack of ethics and respect for the writing of others that just continues continuing in those posts.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I originally misread this thread as a harmless bit of trolling. At this point, I think I was wrong, and I think I might have something to add.

There's a lot of entitlement on the pro-fan fiction side of this argument, and I say that as someone who has dabbled in some fan fiction. I don't know where the line is, and I was fully prepared for at least one of my submissions (the Star Wars one) to get rejected outright. I took the "Ask for forgiveness, not permission" route in publishing it (though it was worth the effort alone just to write it), and depending on the day I don't always feel great about it. I don't claim the right to be able to do what I did, but I sleep at night knowing no one has complained so far and I'll sleep at night if it gets pulled. I will survive if someone at Disney or Lucas (or whoever) doesn't like me.

The only reason this conversation has gone on this long is because a lot of people are not listening when MA keeps repeating that she could and would. This insistence on preserving a space to have the conversation about whether or not she can take your intellectual property is manifestly ludicrous. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Well, AwkwardMD may never read this, if I am indeed on ignore, but I think that I have been misunderstood.

I think that fanfics are fine, if you credit the original author... and I can't bring myself to apologize for that opinion. I can refrain from writing them out of kindness and respect, but I will never actually find them bad, I don't think.

I thought that AMD and I were cool with one another, but I guess these opinions of mine are a step too far.

But there is one thing that I can't understand.

AwkwardMD has written a fanfic, and yet scorns the idea of more fanfics? I really don't understand that logic.
Why don't you take down the fan fic you wrote, if it bothers you?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Why don't you take down the fan fic you wrote, if it bothers you?

Because I believe that I did enough under Fair Use to qualify as transformative. I don't *know* that I did, and I'm willing to be corrected, but I believe that I did and I let Laurel make the final decision. I have toyed with taking it down, and I might on any given day. Also, more importantly, those people I'm glomming onto are not my peers.

There were only ever going to be two responses to my post. One was to say "Oh. Maybe there really are consequences despite my insistence that there isn't. Someone who I thought was on my side really isn't."

The other was to get defensive.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Because I believe that I did enough under Fair Use to qualify as transformative. I don't *know* that I did, and I'm willing to be corrected, but I believe that I did and I let Laurel make the final decision. I have toyed with taking it down, and I might on any given day. Also, more importantly, those people I'm glomming onto are not my peers.

There were only ever going to be two responses to my post. One was to say "Oh. Maybe there really are consequences despite my insistence that there isn't. Someone who I thought was on my side really isn't."

The other was to get defensive.

Consequences for differing opinions?

Of course I'm going to defend myself... I haven't done anything other than express an opinion.

I have written one fanfic based on a work of my peer, and I got permission for it. I would never do otherwise. Even though I don't think it's wrong, I do my best to respect the feelings of others.

But if having a contentious opinion and expressing it makes me the monster, I guess that's who I am?

Either way, I respect you for being honest with your opinions, even though they differ from mine. Honestly that goes for everyone here.

Someone who I thought was on my side really isn't

Wanna know the irony here? I respected the hell out of you for making the jokes you did at the start. I thought that that even though I knew you disagreed with me about the ethics of writing fanfictions from indy works (I think we've discussed this before), you were respecting my opinions and joking along. That seemed pretty damn cool.

But that isn't what happened, I guess.

 

[AlinaX]

I've dabbled in fan fiction on four occasions, not here and under a different name.

The first time, as a very young author, was when I set out to write a Xena Warrior Princess story, and very quickly discovered how hard it was to fit into someone else's story. I abandoned that quickly.

The second time was a grand epic set in the Star Trek universe, and while I never wrote it it did lead to characters and storylines that I used in a sequel that I carefully divorced from that origin.

After a long period of silence, I began writing again, and thought a lot about how women were written. One grand injustice, I felt, was Supergirl, a character who deserved so much more than she was ever allowed. (This was post-Smallville and pre-Melissa.) So I wrote an angry and passionate tale of erotic romance and heroism for her... that meant so much to me but could never really be published properly.

Similarly, the fourth was a female James Bond, a wonderful little tale.

Fan fiction can be deep and meaningful, and it can be frivolous. If won't often be welcomed by its original authors or their legal heirs, but that doesn't make it necessarily wrong.

Copyright is about property, and people are instinctively protective about their property. Laws are created so that property can be controlled. You can see that in this thread.

What I don't really see is how anyone in this thread would suffer if someone decided to write fan fiction based on their stories here on Lit. It's all raging about theft and law and how-dare-you and we'll-tell-mommy.

Grow up, all of you.

 

[Bamagan]

I've dabbled in fan fiction on four occasions, not here and under a different name.

The first time, as a very young author, was when I set out to write a Xena Warrior Princess story, and very quickly discovered how hard it was to fit into someone else's story. I abandoned that quickly.

The second time was a grand epic set in the Star Trek universe, and while I never wrote it it did lead to characters and storylines that I used in a sequel that I carefully divorced from that origin.

After a long period of silence, I began writing again, and thought a lot about how women were written. One grand injustice, I felt, was Supergirl, a character who deserved so much more than she was ever allowed. (This was post-Smallville and pre-Melissa.) So I wrote an angry and passionate tale of erotic romance and heroism for her... that meant so much to me but could never really be published properly.

Similarly, the fourth was a female James Bond, a wonderful little tale.

Fan fiction can be deep and meaningful, and it can be frivolous. If won't often be welcomed by its original authors or their legal heirs, but that doesn't make it necessarily wrong.

Copyright is about property, and people are instinctively protective about their property. Laws are created so that property can be controlled. You can see that in this thread.

What I don't really see is how anyone in this thread would suffer if someone decided to write fan fiction based on their stories here on Lit. It's all raging about theft and law and how-dare-you and we'll-tell-mommy.

Grow up, all of you.

The degree of 'suffering' is rather beside the point. I probably wouldn't characterize myself as having suffered if someone wrote fan fiction with my characters, certainly not in comparison to other ordeals life offers, but it would upset and anger me. It would not make my day better. It would not be flattering or complimentary, especially if it's presented as a fait accompli. I am not suggesting that my experience is universal.
I can't make you (the generic you, not you specifically) accept that the bad feelings you would cause me if you did such a thing should outweigh whatever gratification you get from doing it. Since that is the case, I have to fall back on cudgels like laws and property rights, and hope that the threat of punitive action will be enough to prevent you from making me have to spend my time dealing with your unwanted attention, and possibly from people who erroneously assume your attempt at a backhanded compliment reflects me or my views (not that I think I'm well read enough for that to likely matter, and I mostly get hate mail in the first place).

...But honestly, all this is just a plea for someone to write Ali X fanfic, right?

 

[AlinaX]

Ali X has appeared in someone else's story, with permission. My only complaint is that I didn't get to see what shoes I was wearing.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Nah. It isn't stealing, because nothing is lost.

It's not been "lost", it's being "taken". There's a difference.

 

[Plathfan]

it comes down to personal ethics as a writer. You either have a set, or you don't.

How does using the law as a moral compass constitute "having a set?" How does adherence to a law enacted by legislators 150 years ago indicate artistic conscience?

If tomorrow the legislators reduce the seventy years to zero, limiting copyrights to the creator's lifetime, you'll be fine with it because, again, someone else decided it for you. Doing what you believe in, regardless of the law, is "having a set."

Taking repeatedly from others, changing names and locations without giving credit, may be legal, but it’s wrong. Not crediting or mentioning the source of inspiration doesn't make it original.

 

[AlinaX]

Interesting history of Copyright here:

In the Copyright Act of 1790, the initial 14-year term was allowed to be renewed for one additional 14-year term as long as the author or creator was alive at the end of the first 14 years.

ETA: Here's AO3's page: Fanworks, Fair Use, and Fair Dealing

& thinking about this: If someone were to take my A Night at the Theatre and basically submit it with a different ending where Ali stays in the limo and acts all night like a submissive cumslut, then that would be unacceptable, i.e., not sufficiently transformative. But if someone were to write a sequel in which Ben chases after her, apologises and they end up fucking in a shadowy recess... well, it's using my characters and setting, but it's a whole new story.

 

[AlinaX]

It occurs to me that writing fan fiction is a lot like writing incest. In both cases you're using established characters and relationships to do a lot of the heavy lifting. In the former, it's characters in the public consciousness, and in the latter it's an abstract or archetype that readers can relate to and can substitute in their own versions.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

What I don't really see is how anyone in this thread would suffer if someone decided to write fan fiction based on their stories here on Lit. It's all raging about theft and law and how-dare-you and we'll-tell-mommy.

You are forgetting about the personal part. Sure, someone's desire to base their fan-fic on your work is flattering and it might even bring extra attention to your work. But say that someone decided to use your characters or your universe in a way you dislike? Say they added some character traits or some of their own world-building that goes against your vision and your desires? Wouldn't you be pissed off? Wouldn't you want that person's work taken down? If we are talking about Literotica peers here, the derivative work might even become more popular than the original (I mean, just add some mom-son or cheating into the mix )

 

[Bamagan]

& thinking about this: If someone were to take my A Night at the Theatre and basically submit it with a different ending where Ali stays in the limo and acts all night like a submissive cumslut, then that would be unacceptable, i.e., not sufficiently transformative. But if someone were to write a sequel in which Ben chases after her, apologises and they end up fucking in a shadowy recess... well, it's using my characters and setting, but it's a whole new story.

It sounds like you're easily satisfied in terms of the requirements for something to be transformative.
For my part, I would be doubtful of how transformative a direct sequel like that could be, especially one that's in the same genre as the original work. Pulling a different set of cards from the Clue Deck (okay, this time they're fucking in the conservatory with the rope!) does not sound like a truly new take, and is probably even more likely to infringe on any sequels the original author might have been considering, since they already wrote one sex story about those characters.

Of course, I imagine a lot of writers of fan fiction are disinclined to transform more than they're required to for legal purposes. Change too little and you're infringing; change too much and you can't attract the built-in audience you're hoping to exploit.

 

[AlinaX]

Likely I would be upset. Trust me, I do understand the desire protect one's vision and characters. But also I could sell the movie rights to Ship's Whore, for example, and watch later in dismay as Sam's non-binary identity was stripped out and the physics of interplanetary travel trashed...

 

[Bamagan]

Likely I would be upset. Trust me, I do understand the desire protect one's vision and characters. But also I could sell the movie rights to Ship's Whore, for example, and watch later in dismay as Sam's non-binary identity was stripped out and the physics of interplanetary travel trashed...

And then they boot someone out of the airlock, where they're instantly frozen.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Likely I would be upset. Trust me, I do understand the desire protect one's vision and characters. But also I could sell the movie rights to Ship's Whore, for example, and watch later in dismay as Sam's non-binary identity was stripped out and the physics of interplanetary travel trashed...

As long as it's your choice, it's all fine.

 

[AlinaX]

And then they boot someone out of the airlock, where they're instantly frozen.

God I hate that.

 

[Bamagan]

God I hate that.

At least it's transformative!

 

[StillStunned]

You are forgetting about the personal part. Sure, someone's desire to base their fan-fic on your work is flattering and it might even bring extra attention to your work. But say that someone decided to use your characters or your universe in a way you dislike? Say they added some character traits or some of their own world-building that goes against your vision and your desires? Wouldn't you be pissed off? Wouldn't you want that person's work taken down? If we are talking about Literotica peers here, the derivative work might even become more popular than the original (I mean, just add some mom-son or cheating into the mix )

This would be my concern as well. I have a pretty clear vision of the world of my series The Rivals, for instance. But someone else might say, "Hey, it's a fantasy world, let's chuck in some elves called Shae'eralynnith and Thallyannah'a, and a chivalrous pseudo-medieval knight who goes around saying "Milady" and "quoth" "forsooth, fair maiden" and so on.

That's not my world because stuff like that put me off much of the mainstream fantasy in the 1990s. But there's an audience for it. And like I mentioned early on in this thread, if someone writes that story in my world, and it becomes popular, they're essentially stealing my world away from me little by little with every new story they write.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

@MediocreAuthor I must say that you created one big mess here. I also thought this was all just a joke at first but somewhere along the way, I realized that maybe it wasn't. You picked a very inflammatory topic for most authors and even though I respect your courage to express such opinion, I must say I am not sure what your exact position in all of this is. I was taking it as a joke and to be honest I am not sure where the joke ends and where the serious opinion begins. I think there is plenty of space for clarification since you can see how fired up everyone is about these things.

 

[Bamagan]

This would be my concern as well. I have a pretty clear vision of the world of my series The Rivals, for instance. But someone else might say, "Hey, it's a fantasy world, let's chuck in some elves called Shae'eralynnith and Thallyannah'a, and a chivalrous pseudo-medieval knight who goes around saying "Milady" and "quoth" "forsooth, fair maiden" and so on.

That's not my world because stuff like that put me off much of the mainstream fantasy in the 1990s. But there's an audience for it. And like I mentioned early on in this thread, if someone writes that story in my world, and it becomes popular, they're essentially stealing my world away from me little by little with every new story they write.

A very succinct summary of why people are really trying to ban TikTok. Well done.

 

[AlinaX]

As long as it's your choice, it's all fine.

To sell the rights, sure, but how often does an author get any creative control over what happens to the work?

Look, I'm not trying to encourage people to write fan fiction. I'm certainly not planning to write fan fiction based on fellow authors' works here on Lit without permission.

I *am* saying that fan fiction can be a good thing even if authors dislike losing control over their creations. And if I hold that ethical position, I must necessarily accept that fan fiction could be written about my creations - not that I think it will be, but with all those readers demanding sequels then maybe one will eventually get around to writing it themselves...

 

[MediocreAuthor]

A lot of attention has been put on legality here, so let's switch gears.

Imagine for a moment, an incredibly popular franchise accidentally had it's legal copyright fail. Suddenly the story has no copyright protection whatsoever.

Right of the top of my head, I know that this happened to the book "In His Steps" (the story that WWJD came from), and the films "Night of the Living Dead" and "It's a Wonderful Life".

Imagine that you know someone who tried to copyright their work, but there was an error, and the story is now immediately public domain. You read it and immediately think it needs a sequel.

"Please don't write a sequel," the author says.

Legally, you have every right to write whatever you want with that story. It's in the public domain. But is it moral? Ethical?

Obviously NOT. The right thing to do would be to respect the author's wishes, regardless of the law. What does that tell us? It means the law is a distraction in this discussion.

 

[ElectricBlue]

How does using the law as a moral compass constitute "having a set?" How does adherence to a law enacted by legislators 150 years ago indicate artistic conscience?

I don't need the law to state my ethical belief that taking another writer's work without permission is wrong.

Copyright law in this country happens to support the seventy year ownership concept - and that's recent law, incidentally, not mid nineteenth century law.

In any event, legislators act on behalf of the community. That's why we elect them, to act on our behalf.

If tomorrow the legislators reduce the seventy years to zero, limiting copyrights to the creator's lifetime, you'll be fine with it because, again, someone else decided it for you. Doing what you believe in, regardless of the law, is "having a set."

The law is how communities define what is acceptable behaviour. Generally speaking, that aligns with ethical behaviour.

Taking repeatedly from others, changing names and locations without giving credit, may be legal, but it’s wrong. Not crediting or mentioning the source of inspiration doesn't make it original.

Which is what I've been saying right from the start. I agree, I think it's wrong (and copyright law agrees with me - it's not legal to breach someone's copyright). I think you're confusing me with someone else, to be honest.

 

[Bamagan]

A lot of attention has been put on legality here, so let's switch gears.

Imagine for a moment, an incredibly popular franchise accidentally had it's legal copyright fail. Suddenly the story has no copyright protection whatsoever.

Right of the top of my head, I know that this happened to the book "In His Steps" (the story that WWJD came from), and the films "Night of the Living Dead" and "It's a Wonderful Life".

Imagine that you know someone who tried to copyright their work, but there was an error, and the story is now immediately public domain. You read it and immediately think it needs a sequel.

"Please don't write a sequel," the author says.

Legally, you have every right to write whatever you want with that story. It's in the public domain. But is it moral? Ethical?

Obviously NOT. The right thing to do would be to respect the author's wishes, regardless of the law. What does that tell us? It means the law is a distraction in this discussion.

It's only a distraction if people all behave morally and ethically all the time.