I know I will regret this..................

[@}-}rebecca----]

Don't you think they should at least GIVE you the Tshirt? It's yet another humiliation that you are forced to purchase it.

Okay now your 'assuming' I found the experiences humiliating , nah uhhhh for me it was fun

Superb point about the Tshirt however DVS .....smiles and thank you.

 

[alice_underneath]

I think that assigning arbitrary and meaningless tasks has several aspects. One is that it gives an opportunity for submission per se- if the task had value in itself, the sub may do it just because it makes sense. If it has no intrinsic value, then it's a clear cut act of submission to do it- there's no other motivation. Another is that it has training value- doing this regularly reinforces a mind set of obedience. From the dominant POV both these things are hot, IMO.

From the opposite side of the coin, what you describe seems as if it would be hot to me too.

As for creativity- well, that's always a plus. The compulsion to do something completely novel all the time, however, is a trap.

Yes, I can see where that would be true.

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions.

Alice

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

From the opposite side of the coin, what you describe seems as if it would be hot to me too.

Alice

Ohhh Morning Miss Alice .......hugs......great minds think alike on this topic

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Part of it's about objectification, which isn't everyone's kink, certainly, but part of it's about helplessness and submission, which seems to me to be fairly core elements of BDSM

Not sure that 'helplessness' is a word I would equate with expressions of personal submission in more recent years. I would be more likely to consider 'strength' a word more applicable to the ability to 'submit'. Not mindless submission , empowered by the trust and respect your Dominant has earned still requires strength to 'submit' especially when you are aware of the options.

In my experience, making a sub do something completely arbitrary and meaningless can be quite hot, even when the thing itself isn't.

works both ways. Can be a real delight for the submissive to participate. Guess it depends on the 'mindset'. Who says in pushing limits and the inane it all has to be bodering on the negative........smiles

 

[alice_underneath]

Not sure that 'helplessness' is a word I would equate with expressions of personal submission in more recent years. I would be more likely to consider 'strength' a word more applicable to the ability to 'submit'. Not mindless submission , empowered by the trust and respect your Dominant has earned still requires strength to 'submit' especially when you are aware of the options.

I interpreted his use of the word "helplessness" as a reference to the physical aspect of what's going on. Totally bound & helpless..... at his mercy physically. That type of thing.

That's what I was referring to when I said, "I find the concepts of "helplessness and submission" to be quite erotic."

Alice

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

I interpreted his use of the word "helplessness" as a reference to the physical aspect of what's going on. Totally bound & helpless..... at his mercy physically. That type of thing.

That's what I was referring to when I said, "I find the concepts of "helplessness and submission" to be quite erotic."

Alice

Can't one have the strength to permit themselves to be 'helpless' ?
I think I am having one of those days where I have either 'lost it' (ie my mind) or my own personal clarity even astounds myself. Damn shame I may never be sure...!!!! Thanks Alice for your contribution to my imminent demise ~ smiles sweetly~

 

[alice_underneath]

Can't one have the strength to permit themselves to be 'helpless' ?
I think I am having one of those days where I have either 'lost it' (ie my mind) or my own personal clarity even astounds myself. Damn shame I may never be sure...!!!! Thanks Alice for your contribution to my imminent demise ~ smiles sweetly~

Purple Sage referenced "helplessness and submission".

Yes, I agree that there would be strength involved in the submission part of what he describes.

I have stated several times on this board that I don't know if I, personally, would have the strength and capacity for trust required to submit as a pyl.

No, you are not losing your mind.

Sorry, I need to dash off. Talk to you later,

Alice

 

[Purple Sage]

The 'helplessness' I was talking about was simply physical, no implication either way about character or moral fiber. As for 'strength' and submission, I don't think that's the issue. People submit for all sorts of reasons, some of them healthier than others, IMO, but when people talk about 'strong submissives' I think it's more about shoring up self-image issues than anything else. People have all kinds of different strengths, and I can't think of any that relevant to submission- except one. That one is having a strong self image- not a self image of strength, but simply a self image that is secure in itself, whatever it is. People certainly submit without this, but it's lack tend to lead to all sorts of conflicts.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

While I, personally, consider objectification to be disturbing, I find the concepts of "helplessness and submission" to be quite erotic.

Hmmmmm... *ponders a moment*

Okay... so if I were to strip you naked, put you on hands and knees, bind your wrists and knees to spreader bars so you were bound, helpless and submissive... then sat down and put my feet on your back to use you as a foot stool...

Or maybe strip you naked, mummify you to an upright pole, forearms raised parallel to the ground and bound in position, again you are being bound, helpless, submissive... then I call over some friends and used you as a coat tree...

Would you find that hot and erotic? Or disturbing? Or are you squirming in your seat because you really aren't sure just how to react to that?
*evil grin*

I love being a sadist! *LOL*

 

[DVS]

Hmmmmm... *ponders a moment*

Okay... so if I were to strip you naked, put you on hands and knees, bind your wrists and knees to spreader bars so you were bound, helpless and submissive... then sat down and put my feet on your back to use you as a foot stool...

Or maybe strip you naked, mummify you to an upright pole, forearms raised parallel to the ground and bound in position, again you are being bound, helpless, submissive... then I call over some friends and used you as a coat tree...

Would you find that hot and erotic? Or disturbing? Or are you squirming in your seat because you really aren't sure just how to react to that?
*evil grin*

I love being a sadist! *LOL*

Reminds me of scenes from "A Clockwork Orange"...a somewhat sadistic (or quaint, perhaps?) tale from about 40? years ago.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

You're not just singing in the rain.

Reminds me of scenes from "A Clockwork Orange"...a somewhat sadistic (or quaint, perhaps?) tale from about 40? years ago.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Reminds me of scenes from "A Clockwork Orange"...a somewhat sadistic (or quaint, perhaps?) tale from about 40? years ago.

Mr DVS are you hiding a bowler hat behind the back of that AV and who keeps leaving these damn 's all over this thread ........sighs

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

It reminds me of various scenes from The Road Warrior.

Okay had to Google this movie under images........ if what I found was accurate then the movie was released as Mad Max in Australia. Or was it another movie please Mr R.Rathbone ?

 

[Purple Sage]

Okay had to Google this movie under images........ if what I found was accurate then the movie was released as Mad Max in Australia. Or was it another movie please Mr R.Rathbone ?

Road Warrior was a higher-budget sequel to Mad Max (and Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome was a sequal to that).

 

[alice_underneath]

While I, personally, consider objectification to be disturbing, I find the concepts of "helplessness and submission" to be quite erotic.

Hmmmmm... *ponders a moment*

Okay... so if I were to strip you naked, put you on hands and knees, bind your wrists and knees to spreader bars so you were bound, helpless and submissive... then sat down and put my feet on your back to use you as a foot stool...

Or maybe strip you naked, mummify you to an upright pole, forearms raised parallel to the ground and bound in position, again you are being bound, helpless, submissive... then I call over some friends and used you as a coat tree...

Mr. Geoff,

You are the very first non-imaginary person to suggest, mention, or contemplate (even in jest) binding, restraining, or tying me up in any way.

So in a way, I appreciate your humor very much.

However, I'll be more comfortable answering your questions if we remove you from the scenario and insert a fictional character. Let's call him "AD" (short for: Alice's Dom). OK?

Would you find that hot and erotic? Or disturbing? Or are you squirming in your seat because you really aren't sure just how to react to that?

Neither of the scenarios seems hot and erotic to me.

Imagining myself in the first (as AD's footstool) doesn't disturb me, but it does make me laugh. To be honest, I don't know if I could do that and keep myself from giggling uncontrollably. I suppose it could be hot and erotic (depending on what AD had said ahead of time, or what he does next). It's really hard to say.

The second scenario (the coatrack) would violate a very hard limit for me (specifically: No Other People). The scenario is very disturbing for me to contemplate for many reasons, not least of which is the fact that it would represent a violation of trust that would end my relationship with AD immediately.

As for the last question - no, I am not squirming.

Alice

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Road Warrior was a higher-budget sequel to Mad Max (and Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome was a sequal to that).

~Thank you Purple Sage ~
I must have been asleep the Year they released it I had not heard of this movie untill now​

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Mr. Geoff,

You are the very first non-imaginary person to suggest, mention, or contemplate (even in jest) binding, restraining, or tying me up in any way.

So in a way, I appreciate your humor very much.

Ohh errrr ummn not so sure Evil Geoff Sir was joking Miss Alice

Imagining myself in the first (as AD's footstool) doesn't disturb me, but it does make me laugh. To be honest, I don't know if I could do that and keep myself from giggling uncontrollably.

Ohhh ......can't wait to hear how Miss Alices Dom would 'assist' her in learning to calm down

The second scenario (the coatrack) would violate a very hard limit for me (specifically: No Other People). The scenario is very disturbing for me to contemplate for many reasons, not least of which is the fact that it would represent a violation of trust that would end my relationship with AD immediately.

I myself Miss Alice as you know to some degree are for the same reasons as you on this one. While a perfectly valid expression to some it simply would not be a expression of play I could consider either.

As for the last question - no, I am not squirming.

That sounds like a dare to me ...... .....ohhhh Evil Geoff Sir did you see what Miss Alice wrote bad bad girl !!!!!

 

[alice_underneath]

Ohhh ......can't wait to hear how Miss Alices Dom would 'assist' her in learning to calm down

I wish I could tell you what he would do. But since AD only exists in my head, he is not exactly a knowledgeable dom. Of course, he does have some spectacular ideas. But as for training techniques... well... he's basically clueless! Just like me!

That sounds like a dare to me ...... .....ohhhh Evil Geoff Sir did you see what Miss Alice wrote bad bad girl !!!!!

LOL! Nope, not a dare. Just a simple fact.

 

[Purple Sage]

Ohh errrr ummn not so sure Evil Geoff Sir was joking Miss Alice

And there's also the question of whether Evil Geoff is a non-imaginary person...


As for you, Alice: I certainly don't take the position that you 'should' want or not want any particular thing, but I would caution you about making such stark predictions ahead of any substantive experience. Without trying to make any rules about what constitutes a 'true submissive' or any nonsense like that, I would suggest that the d/s dynamic involves finding the act of submission hot, and that if that dynamic is actually working for/in you, you can find yourself creaming your jeans in a lot of situations that, in the cool, calm light of your intellect, seem pretty repugnant. In fact, a major attraction of BDSM for many submissives is to be compelled to participate in things they cannot 'allow themselves' to do, thus being freed to enjoy what is forbidden by their internalization of other people's ideas of morality. So, whether your conscious ideas of the politically correct or your subconscious inhibitions are constraining you, much of the thrill of BDSM comes, for many, from having an external agency compel you to do what, on some level, you are resisting, but on some other level you desire. If you're only 'compelled' to do things you consciously desire, you may regain so much control over the situation that this dynamic no longer functions- unhotting the whole deal.
Objectification is basically a message about being compelled. As a non-person, even temporarily, your choices are eliminated and the external agency of compulsion becomes validated. In this situation, your own inhibitions are moot, and you are 'free' to respond libidinously, with no interference from the super-ego.

 

[alice_underneath]

In fact, a major attraction of BDSM for many submissives is to be compelled to participate in things they cannot 'allow themselves' to do, thus being freed to enjoy what is forbidden by their internalization of other people's ideas of morality. So, whether your conscious ideas of the politically correct or your subconscious inhibitions are constraining you, much of the thrill of BDSM comes, for many, from having an external agency compel you to do what, on some level, you are resisting, but on some other level you desire.

That description hits the nail squarely on the head, from my perspective.

Objectification is basically a message about being compelled. As a non-person, even temporarily, your choices are eliminated and the external agency of compulsion becomes validated. In this situation, your own inhibitions are moot, and you are 'free' to respond libidinously, with no interference from the super-ego.

And that explanation makes me rethink the whole concept of objectification.

Thank you very much taking the time to explain, Purple Sage.

Alice

 

[Evil_Geoff]

And there's also the question of whether Evil Geoff is a non-imaginary person...


...

Evil_Geoff is, in fact, a totally imaginary person. He exists as a real-time biological, free-willed, artificially intelligent construct that has nothing to do with the reality of the world-wide-web. His projection here is a happy accident of the movement of electrons brought about by a process similar to that of the 10,000 monkeys typing 10,000 years and producing the completed works of Willy the Shake (aka William Sheakspeare).

And Alice... I was only half-joking. *EVIL GRIN* I was presenting the scenarios for your consideration of the delicious predicament they would place you in. The helplessness of the bondage, the forced compliance... And the resulting struggle between your desire to submit and the fear, the shame of being objectified.

As for the "no others" limit? Well, I certainly would not allow others to touch, use or harm anyone in my care. At least not without it being negotiated before play and agreed to. Please understand that I am an exhibitionist, I play in public dungeons like 1763 and The Crucible, I host play parties in my home, I attend play parties in the homes of others. Eventually, a partner would be expected to join me in these activities outside of the bedroom. So far *knocks on the wooden desk top*, I'm batting 1.000 with partners, earning their trust, building their self esteem, until they feel safe, secure, and comfortable enough to do a scene with an audience.

So no rush on the coat rack. *evil grin*

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Ohh errrr ummn not so sure Evil Geoff Sir was joking Miss Alice
....
That sounds like a dare to me ...... .....ohhhh Evil Geoff Sir did you see what Miss Alice wrote bad bad girl !!!!!

*smiles*

Only partially joking. Since Alice has, by her own admission, no real experience with BDSM, I was presenting those scenarios for her consideration and imagination.

And yes, I saw what she wrote. Thank you! *grins* But I am not taking it as a dare.

Though that _could_ be arranged... *waggles his eyebrows*

 

[Purple Sage]

That description hits the nail squarely on the head, from my perspective.
And that explanation makes me rethink the whole concept of objectification.

Thank you very much taking the time to explain, Purple Sage.

Alice

Glad I could help.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

*smiles*

Only partially joking. Since Alice has, by her own admission, no real experience with BDSM, I was presenting those scenarios for her consideration and imagination.

And yes, I saw what she wrote. Thank you! *grins* But I am not taking it as a dare.

Though that _could_ be arranged... *waggles his eyebrows*

You see Evil Geoff Sir...... I just adore Miss Alice and being the sweet , delightful type of friend that I am ( did I mention a fabulous and demure ... ohh well next time) I felt compelled. I say COMPELLED to do a bit of a 'Cindy Brady' on her. Not sure why really and did I mention yet I am special.......laughs

ohhh btw think I am coming down with something *coughsconsideryourselfdaredSir

 

[Stegral]

I have a few questions for the PYLs here. What makes the assignment of a seemingly arbitrary task hot for you, as the PYL? :

Ok... I will step in here as a curious lurker.... I am pretty Vanilla but the SO enjoys BD side of this topic..
I am wondering what the PYL stands for... I have a few "libraries" bookmarked & I can't figure out what it means...I have recently had to "leave" my circle of BDSM friends due to a severe conflict with 2 new members & with them being more into "scening" than me just being a curious 'vanilla'...
I decided it rather than them, so my experiences in this field are now limited to online only now & the ocassional IM to the few I trust not to blab....