I love my Country

[Lisa Denton]

AMICUS:
Ha, ha You can never pay a compliment without pissing it up with some other remark. Sad.

Thanks for pointing out my ignorance - I hadn't noticed As for flawed assumptions - I strive to change those as my knowledge increases.

I may be young - it does not follow that I am ignorant. Following my rape, I too visited most places you mention, and stood on the steps where Hitler gave many speaches - and wept along with a few Jews reflecting on the past. I would add that there is ALSO more to the world and history than YOU have seen either, my friend. I dare hazzard a guess that in a few short years I have experienced as much as yourself of either, and maybe travelled more, and seen more suffering.

Whilst this thread may have little real anger in it, I see it as serving a useful purpose, and not a 'game' to be continued. I have respect for you because you are older. That does not mean I think you are right - or always wrong. I DO think you have a need to temper sense with snide digs. Each to his own - I'm far from perfect too. .

McKenna: I think women got the right to vote officially in 1893.

LISA:

I found that both touching and encouraging. Maybe our parents could give us the same advice. I'm pleased you have such a nice friend, and I'm sure she appreciates she has a good on in you. You know that, and I know that. However, many really believe that a film like - was it "U751"? - Is TRUE. Films like that are presented as 'fact'. They do not say at the start something like "This is fiction, but based on fact, though nationalities and dates have been changed."

All do not think or understand in the way intelligent Americans do. (Note: - I'm not implying all Americans are intelligent ). It is partly because of different thought-patterns, different priorities, concepts, and perceptions in other cultures that misunderstandings arise.

I firmly believe that the particular film, and many others were/are made to 'decieve'. If not, WHY the gross distortion of facts? My view is that if it portrayed the heroism of continental European patriots in the lead-up to capture of ENIGMA, and gave the true story of how the BRITISH navy captured it, it would have had little appeal to 'American Flagwavers', or have given them anything to feel proud of, or believe - once again - that it was great American heros, that had done their stuff.

That type of film is morning porridge for 'gullible Yanks'. They pay their dollars, see it, and are filled with pride. THEY ARE PURE PROPAGANDA to fill the coffers of the very people I condemn for bringing this country into disrepute.

As a footnote: I saw this film in the UK whilst on holiday. THAT version had a credit at the end to say that it WAS the BRITS who captured the first one three years before our guys did. It was NOT on the original I saw here. I presume it was added after the hue and cry from Europeans about it, and because we really needed them on our side for 'Iraq'. (Perhaps I'm too cynical )

Hi TV, I like the note you put in there that your not implying all americans are intelligent, he, he. I sure wouldn't imply something like that either.

I didn't see the movie you are talking about, so I can't really say anything about that particular movie.

I am amazed often when I talk to people in other countries who seem to think texans still ride around on horses and stuff. I guess I can see how that might take a movie as being factual but I have trouble believing that it was intended to be. I mean, you make it sound as if it was primarily aimed at american audiences who would not think so, in my opinion.

I think that is where we disagree. But no problem.

If our criminally stupid government had not gone and attacked and invaded Iraq perhaps we could figure out some of these other things. I have decided I don't trust Kerry and I wouldn't even consider trusting Edwards, but I am going to vote for them on blind trust. They have to do better than Bush and his blind men who have proven thay cannot be trusted.

Anywho, I like a good movie that has a patriotic theme but only if it has a good story in there too. I never finish thinking it was true, maybe you and I are more intelligent than most americans.

I saw that movie Black Hawk Down. I had read the book first and I was so disappointed that they tried to make the movie into something that never happened. Those american men were brave and that could have been shown without the hype.

I am also not stupid enough to think the book was factual but there were lots of documented accounts in it. Those two men who were posthumously awarded the Medal Of Honor needed no hype.

Anywho I love my country. I know the government of my country has to be changed quickly. And who knows, maybe if Kerry puts a muzzle on Edwards, finds some sensible way to get us out of Iraq quickly without making things worse for the Iraqi people, little hope there but who knows. Then we can start trying to get to be the strongest and most peaceful nation on earth.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... many really believe that a film like - was it "U751"? - Is TRUE. Films like that are presented as 'fact'. They do not say at the start something like "This is fiction, but based on fact, though nationalities and dates have been changed."...

I had trouble with this movie when I first saw the trailer on television.

It is bad enough when Hollywood adapts history to improve dramatic impact of the story, but this story was already a sufficiently dramatic story.

American citizens and military have been involved in enough heroic stories worth telling. We do not need to take the heroic actions of citizens from other countries and retell them as the American deeds. When Hollywood begins changing actual historical incidents into totally fictitious acts of American heroism, it makes me queezy.




Captured U-boats


U-110 - "The Secret Capture" May 9, 1941.

This is what most people view as the most important capture of the entire war and it was so secret that even the crew of U-110 did not know of it! U-110 (on its second patrol under the command of Kptlt Fritz Julius Lemp) had been attacking a convoy along with U-201 (Oblt Adalbert Schnee) when Lemp left his periscope up too long (probably to confirm a kill, he sank two ships on that day amounting to 7500 GRT) and the escort HMS Aubretia noticed it and rushed to the scene dropping depth charges.

U-110 survived the first attacks but then HMS Bulldog and HMS Broadway came and join in the hunt. U-110 was forced to surface and HMS Bulldog immediately went onto ramming course (its commander realized at the very last moment that a capture might come off and tried to evade hitting U-110 which he almost did) which Lemp noticed and ordered "Abandon Ship". Lemp figured that since the boat was going to be rammed (and presumably sunk) its secrets were safe within it. Only when he was in the water did he realize that the b was not sinking and attempted to swim back and prevent capture and that was the last seen of him. Many say he was shot in the water by a British sailor but that may not be at all true.

The British made several journeys between U-110 and HMS Bulldog to collect whatever they could get their hands on inside the boat. This must have been a real treat as U-110 was abandoned in a hurry and being a IXB class she did not sink as rapidly as VIIC would likely have done. It is very likely that numerous U-boats were sunk using the material found inside U-110.

The day after the boat was captured someone realized that the allies already had the most important part of U-110, namely the secret documents and Enigma machine and that the Germans might find out that the British had the boat soon and, assuming the worst, change all codes and cipher system. The boat "accidentally" sank when being towed to Britain. 15 men were killed in the action and 32 captured. Lemp himself did not survive as noted above.



Plot Summary for U-571 (2000)


Internet Movie Database

In the midst of World War II, the battle below the seas rages. The Nazi's have the upper edge as the Allies are unable to crack their war codes. That is, until a wrecked U-boat sends out an SOS signal, and the Allies realise this is their chance to seize the 'enigma coding machine'. But masquerading as Nazi's and taking over the U-boat is the smallest of their problems. The action really begins when they get stranded on the U-boat.

Summary written by Filmtwob {webmaster@filmfreak.co.za}

In the battle front of espionage and code cracking of World War II, there remains but one task on the Allied agenda: the capture of a German "Enigma" machine which will allow the Allied naval forces to locate and track submerged German U-Boat submarines. When one such German vessel breaks down after a battle with British forces, a secret mission is dispatched to take over the U-Boat by commando American forces and retrieve an Enigma machine intact. The raid goes well, at first, yet following the destruction of the American mothership and the arrival of reenforcement German ships, the Americans trapped on the U-Boat must use their training and wits to pilot U-571 in order to save their lives.

Summary written by Anthony Hughes {husnock31@hotmail.com}



DVD VERSIONS

Region One (American) Edition Contents

* Spotlight on Location "Making of U-571"
* Feature Commentary with Director Jonathan Mostow
* Creating and Construction U-571
* Inside the Enigma
* Britain Captures the U-110
* A Submariner's WWII Experience
* U.S. Naval Archives: Capturing the U-505
* Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks
* Theatrical Trailer
* DVD-ROM Enhanced



Region Two (British) Edition Contents

* Story of U-505
* Spotlight on Location "Making of U-571"
* Feature Commentary with Director Jonathan Mostow
* Britain Captures the U-110
* Inside the Enigma
* Interview with Vice Admiral Patrick Hannifin
* Theatrical Trailer

 

[amicus]

There is a highly stylized and typically Brit film entitled 'Enigma' that gives yet another version to the Nazi encoding device and the mystery surrounding it.

Although I did watch the other film mentioned about U-110, I think, having some familiarity with the recently declassified files concerning the Brit intelligence service, I took the Yank version with a grain of salt...

The Brits also invented and perfected RADAR and shared it with the Yanks also...not that it matters...

amicus...

 

[Jagged]

Well today in New York I just watched the I hate America crowd march through the streets. I would like for all those who are ashamed to be Americans to be reminded that you have the freedom to travel. Go overseas. Live in Europe which many seem to envy.

In the situation in Iraq which is an important issue.

This is basically what happen. You know a gang leader lives on the block. Has whores sells guns and drugs. One day you hear he has big plans. Has explosives for a big job.

You and the rest of the cops kick in the door kill some gang members, capture the leader and start search. You free the whores there and take plenty of drugs off the street. Problem you don't find explosives. You find assault rifles, and grenades, and even dead bodies in the basement.

Then the neighborhood screams at you for raiding that inocessent man's place. Sure he was a bad guy but why raid his house??

That is our situation...


For me it is simple....love it or leave it. We are a nation founded by men who wanted a country for everyone to live in freedom. Travel around the world and you will realise how great of a country it is...Every legal immigrant I know is the first to tell me how great they have it here and how they could never have done so well anywhere else.

I love the flag

I love the Constitution

I respect the President whoever or whatever party the person belongs too..

I am happy not guilty that I live in the greatest country in the world.

I am an American......I am always Proud to say that to people.

It seems to me that liberals and Democrats aren't even like their great icons of the pasted. They knew the system worked and loved America. They simply saw room for improvement.

Roosevelt knew during wartime you had to profile the enemy and you had to stand up to evil no matter what. He defeated the original Axis of Evil. If you see a good fight you get in it.

Kennedy great leader and not afraid to take action. He wanted peace but wasn't afraid to fight. Help create the Green Berets and pushed the space program forward.

 

[oggbashan]

The Poles were there first

Poland stole an Enigma machine from Nazi Germany and gave it to the UK in 1939.

The German Navy's Enigma was slightly different and the Naval code wasn't broken until after the capture of U-110.

So next time you hear a Polish joke, remember that they outwitted the Nazis and kept that secret all through their occupation.

Og

 

[Teenage Venus]

LIZA:

I am amazed often when I talk to people in other countries who seem to think texans still ride around on horses and stuff. I guess I can see how that might take a movie as being factual but I have trouble believing that it was intended to be. I mean, you make it sound as if it was primarily aimed at american audiences who would not think so, in my opinion.

And I'm amazed that so many Americans think Brits all walk about in black suits, bowler hats, and with a rolled up brollie Though I did find an umbrella was a useful accessory most of the time

I do think our film industry slants films to please US audiences because they invariably release them initially here as we have a large viewing public which will bring in the dollars fast for them. Also, if the film is a 'hit' here, the PR helps its launch in other countries. (I don't think we disagree so much as have a slightly different opinion on that.) I think we are in agreement that films like 'Black Hawk Down' - and the ones I mention - need not be distorted, and oft do the actual heros no favors. And that historical distortion by Hollywood is not conducive to good PR overseas.

AMICUS:
A reasonable posting

I have not seen the Brit 'Enigma' film. I do have a copy of the documentary series they brought out on the whole 'Enigma' saga - using many of those involved at Bletchley in the work. I accept that series as being as near the truth as possible, as I found all documentaries on the BBC seemed to be as factual and unbiased as anyone could make them. In the case of 'war stuff, they explode many myths - often at the expence of disillusioning the Brit viewers. They give credit where it is due - including to the enemies of the time - are not afraid of showing all the Brit cock-ups, etc. This adds credulity to revelations about their 'Allies including us, having made errors too. Few of these 'errors' would be shown on our own TV channels.

The Brits and others invented many things (including RADAR)which many Americans think are USA inventions: Mostly, they were invented elsewhere and our money was used to develop/market them. Even the famous 'COLT' which 'won the West' was a crib from a similar design produced years before by a Brit. (The guy copied it from a design in the British Museum.) We and others take credit for much erroneously. Example:

"Bell is cut off as originator of the phone
U.S. Congress gives honour to Italian immigrant

BRANTFORD, Ont. - Stunned officials have been burning up the phone lines after learning that the U.S. Congress has ousted Alexander Graham Bell - the pride of Brantford - as the father of modern mass communications.

Bell has long been recognized as the inventor of the telephone, the concept for which he developed at his family's Brantford, Ont. homestead. His revolutionary device was patented in the United States in 1876. But last week, Congress passed a resolution crediting little-known Italian immigrant Antonio Meucci as the phone's rightful originator.

Brian Wood, curator of the Bell Homestead Museum in Brantford, was surprised to hear of the resolution.

"If this can be proven, then Meucci certainly deserves recognition as contributing to the realm of telephony," Wood said. "But I don't see it as a huge threat. There may be others all over the world who did similar things but didn't get patented or legally known."

The Italian newspaper la Repubblica wrote on Monday that justice had finally been served - 113 years after Meucci's death. The newspaper referred to Bell as an impostor, profiteer and a "cunning Scotsman" who usurped Meucci's spot in history, while Meucci died poor and unrecognized.

Vito Fossella, a U.S. congressman for Staten Island, N.Y., authored the resolution.

"In the past number of years, historical records and scholarly research have concluded that Meucci was the original inventor of the telephone, long before Bell," said Fossella's spokesperson, Craig Donner. "Because of Meucci's role, he should receive recognition for his contribution."

The resolution recognizes that Meucci filed a caveat on his early telephone on Dec. 28, 1871, which gave notice of an impending patent. But the Italian inventor couldn't afford the $10 to renew the caveat in 1874. If he had, the resolution says, Alexander Graham Bell would not have been granted his patent two years later."

We live in a world where distortion of truth - usually for political ends - deceives the population, and causes ill-will between nations. I consider that 'HOLLYWOOD' does more than their share in causing 'problems' for the USA in this field.

JAGGED:
Must disagree with your 'simplification' of the Iraq situation. And your virtual 'Niggers go back to the jungle' attitude does you no favors - and probably an injustice.

How many of those you condemn are as much born and bred in the USA as you presumably are?

Whilst not agreeing with the way they chose to express dissatisfaction - any more than I agree with 'suicide bombers' - I try to look at the reasons they feel as they do, and accept that they may well have legitimate cause to feel angry, disillusioned - or in some cases give their life for their cause.

You have a view and express it - no quibble with that. THEY have a view and express it. I have no quibble with that. HOW you or they express it is something I may or may not agree with.

Nothing wrong with the flag. Nothing wrong with the Constitution. Nothing wrong with having a President. It is the way the flag is 'waved', and the Constitution adhered to, and what the President does, or does not do which I question at times.

I'm basically proud of being American. I'm oft ashamed at what is or is not done by certain factors here - either openly, as purporting to be my will (as a citizen), or covertly - to keep our Government's (whichever is incumbent) paymasters happy.

It IS okay to be American, be patriotic, love our country, yet feel let down, or unhappy with certain things. This is true for the 'born and bred' Americans, and true for those that have made this their home - HONESTLY.

And before you tell them, 'WOGS go home', ask yourself how many are here as a result of American actions in their own country? There is no simplistic solution, and a Brit/German - and now American! - 'NATIONAL FRONT' approach is to be deplored by any right-thinking person of whatever nationality. (A 'Blind Patriot' is no better in my book than a misguided follower of Islam or any other faith intent on 'killing the Infidel'.)

Virtual_Burlesque:
We seem basically in agreement on this. And thanks for all the information you posted

 

[Teenage Venus]

American citizens and military have been involved in enough heroic stories worth telling. We do not need to take the heroic actions of citizens from other countries and retell them as the American deeds. When Hollywood begins changing actual historical incidents into totally fictitious acts of American heroism, it makes me queezy.

I fully agree, Virtual_Burlesque

Ogg:

Thanks for 'pushing' the Polish. They suffered much from Germans and Russians. If one reads history, they made a large contribution to the war effort. (I just finished reading a book about the Free Polish Airforce, and their contribution during the 'Blitz'.) Poland has MANY unsung heros.

 

[Guest]

My Two Cents (If it pleases the Thread?)

Hi TV, I like the note you put in there that your not implying all americans are intelligent, he, he. I sure wouldn't imply something like that either.

I didn't see the movie you are talking about, so I can't really say anything about that particular movie.

I am amazed often when I talk to people in other countries who seem to think texans still ride around on horses and stuff. I guess I can see how that might take a movie as being factual but I have trouble believing that it was intended to be. I mean, you make it sound as if it was primarily aimed at american audiences who would not think so, in my opinion.

I think that is where we disagree. But no problem.

If our criminally stupid government had not gone and attacked and invaded Iraq perhaps we could figure out some of these other things. I have decided I don't trust Kerry and I wouldn't even consider trusting Edwards, but I am going to vote for them on blind trust. They have to do better than Bush and his blind men who have proven thay cannot be trusted.

Anywho, I like a good movie that has a patriotic theme but only if it has a good story in there too. I never finish thinking it was true, maybe you and I are more intelligent than most americans.

I saw that movie Black Hawk Down. I had read the book first and I was so disappointed that they tried to make the movie into something that never happened. Those american men were brave and that could have been shown without the hype.

I am also not stupid enough to think the book was factual but there were lots of documented accounts in it. Those two men who were posthumously awarded the Medal Of Honor needed no hype.

Anywho I love my country. I know the government of my country has to be changed quickly. And who knows, maybe if Kerry puts a muzzle on Edwards, finds some sensible way to get us out of Iraq quickly without making things worse for the Iraqi people, little hope there but who knows. Then we can start trying to get to be the strongest and most peaceful nation on earth.

Hi, sorry to interrupt, but I stumbled upon this post and my interest was piqued. My name is Seth; I am twenty-one years old, and a new American soldier. I graduated Army Basic Training/AIT a few weeks ago, and am now stationed back home, near my Reserve unit.

I'm a very left-leaning person. I'm pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, and anti-Bush. I, for one, didn't really think we had any business in Iraq, so a lot of people have a hard time understanding why I volunteered to serve my country in a time of war. Now, granted, I certainly don't want to go to "the sandbox." Of course not; not with my marriage coming up next June, and certainly not before I finish my Bachelor's. But I made the choice. I stood up and raised my right hand, and now when the Army says I go, I go.

It's a question of perspective really. I can go over there, risk my life away from my loved ones, and be miserable. OR.... I can go over there, serve to the best of my abilities, and who knows? Maybe I can improve or even save some lives--not just end them.

Figure, what the hell. We destroyed their country and ruined their infrastructure. Might as well go in and help fix it. That's why the Army pays me to build bridges.

But hey, maybe that's just me. Take at face value, or with a grain of salt. Do what ya like.

 

[minsue]

Re: My Two Cents (If it pleases the Thread?)

Hi, sorry to interrupt, but I stumbled upon this post and my interest was piqued. My name is Seth; I am twenty-one years old, and a new American soldier. I graduated Army Basic Training/AIT a few weeks ago, and am now stationed back home, near my Reserve unit.

I'm a very left-leaning person. I'm pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, and anti-Bush. I, for one, didn't really think we had any business in Iraq, so a lot of people have a hard time understanding why I volunteered to serve my country in a time of war. Now, granted, I certainly don't want to go to "the sandbox." Of course not; not with my marriage coming up next June, and certainly not before I finish my Bachelor's. But I made the choice. I stood up and raised my right hand, and now when the Army says I go, I go.

It's a question of perspective really. I can go over there, risk my life away from my loved ones, and be miserable. OR.... I can go over there, serve to the best of my abilities, and who knows? Maybe I can improve or even save some lives--not just end them.

Figure, what the hell. We destroyed their country and ruined their infrastructure. Might as well go in and help fix it. That's why the Army pays me to build bridges.

But hey, maybe that's just me. Take at face value, or with a grain of salt. Do what ya like.

Welcome

 

[Teenage Venus]

Welcome

- Goes for me too, Siddhartha. I enjoy all points of view. Good luck with your 'Bachelors', and the wedding. And 'building bridges' literally - and metaphorically - is a worthy occupation.

 

[oggbashan]

Re: My Two Cents (If it pleases the Thread?)

Hi, sorry to interrupt, but I stumbled upon this post and my interest was piqued. My name is Seth; I am twenty-one years old, and a new American soldier. I graduated Army Basic Training/AIT a few weeks ago, and am now stationed back home, near my Reserve unit...

Some friendly advice:

If you do go, listen to those who have been there longer and know how the place works.

You may find that people smile and wave at you when you pass, or scowl and wave their fists. Tomorrow one of those same people might fire an RPG at you. The waving might be to distract you from the guy with the RPG behind you, or it may just be a greeting.

Try to treat the locals with respect and ignore their women. No one likes soldiers eying their women, even in the US. In the Middle East it is an insult in times of peace, and very dangerous in a war zone. Don't ignore women carrying RPGs!

If you become a target, remember that it isn't you personally they are aiming at - it is what you represent - the US or their own government. Even if the attack is impersonal it still kills. Try to give those attacking you another target, either a false one, or one that can hit back better than you can.

Good luck and come back in one piece.

Og

 

[OldnotDead]

Re: My Two Cents (If it pleases the Thread?)

Hi, sorry to interrupt, but I stumbled upon this post and my interest was piqued. My name is Seth; I am twenty-one years old, and a new American soldier. I graduated Army Basic Training/AIT a few weeks ago, and am now stationed back home, near my Reserve unit.

I'm a very left-leaning person. I'm pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, and anti-Bush. . . . Maybe I can improve or even save some lives--not just end them.

. . . That's why the Army pays me to build bridges.

But hey, maybe that's just me. Take at face value, or with a grain of salt. Do what ya like.

Hi, Seth,

Thank you for your service. I hope your military experience does all the good you hope it can and repays you with opportunity and satsifaction of a job well done.

My prayers are for you, your family and your comrades, for your eventual safe return.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Re: My Two Cents (If it pleases the Thread?)

Hi, sorry to interrupt, but I stumbled upon this post and my interest was piqued. My name is Seth; I am twenty-one years old, and a new American soldier. I graduated Army Basic Training/AIT a few weeks ago, and am now stationed back home, near my Reserve unit.

I'm a very left-leaning person. I'm pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, and anti-Bush. I, for one, didn't really think we had any business in Iraq, so a lot of people have a hard time understanding why I volunteered to serve my country in a time of war. Now, granted, I certainly don't want to go to "the sandbox." Of course not; not with my marriage coming up next June, and certainly not before I finish my Bachelor's. But I made the choice. I stood up and raised my right hand, and now when the Army says I go, I go.

It's a question of perspective really. I can go over there, risk my life away from my loved ones, and be miserable. OR.... I can go over there, serve to the best of my abilities, and who knows? Maybe I can improve or even save some lives--not just end them.

Figure, what the hell. We destroyed their country and ruined their infrastructure. Might as well go in and help fix it. That's why the Army pays me to build bridges.

But hey, maybe that's just me. Take at face value, or with a grain of salt. Do what ya like.

Hi Seth, I was hoping we would get some military or ex-military types commenting here. I think one guy said he used to fly with the military. But they were talking about jet fuel and cancer research and I didn't understand it enough to comment.

I am one of the ones who have been saying I Love My Country and all. I love also anybody who has ever worn an american military uniform or who does today. Peace-time or war-time, serving in a peace-zone or war-zone. You people are my heroes.

Make sure and tell everybody that most civilians who oppose the war also fully support our troops.

Stay safe and stay in touch.

 

[Teenage Venus]

Make sure and tell everybody that most civilians who oppose the war also fully support our troops.

However much they may disagree with the Iraqi conflict - and there are a hell of a lot on campus - I have yet to meet one that does not wholeheartedly support our troops required to serve there. I found this in England too.

Apropos anti- 'American' feelings: I was checking on official casualty figures from the State department a few days ago. From end of hostilities to 14th of this month they were stated as:

USA Dead - 973
UK Dead - 65
USA Injured - 6497

This aquates to 15 USA to each British soldier!

Now, however I look at these statistics, or whatever criteria I use, I think that prominent in there are two 'factors' to chew over:

Hate for 'America' is greater than for Britain, so Americans are prefered targets.

The style of 'administration', and approach to their role by USA personnel is more of an 'Occupying Force' one. The British approach is more on the lines of 'Guests' performing a 'Peace-keeping' role.

This is my own assessment. It would be interesting to hear others' views.

Siddhartha:

The advice I would offer any soldier there is:

Every enemy can be a friend.
Any friend may be an enemy.
Trust none - respect all.

AND REMEMBER - as a soldier of military age, your chances of survival in the Iraq war zone are slightly higher than if you spent the same time at home in Los Angeles! - and that's a sobering thought.

Your God be with you.
Candida

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Re: Colly -

Do you remember this column - came out right after 9/11? (edited for space)

By Leonard Pitts Jr.
Syndicated columnist

. . . What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed. . .

. . . Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, cultural, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae, a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse.

We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though - peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.


It is pretty disappointing to read all of the US bashing around here. Especially as most of the bashers have never even visited here, garnering most of their information from the TV, apparently. (John Wayne passed away a long time ago, by the way.)

Isn't it difficult to completely dismiss a group of people in that fashion?

Comparing countries is an impossible task, with differing cultures, languages, systems of government and education, sizes of population. How on earth can a country with less than 1/5 of our residents possibly compare their unique situation to ours?

Unfortunately, whatever happens here becomes instant international news. Why is that - our youth? stardom? stupidity?

Of course we're not perfect. God, no. (As a matter of fact, I've been fairly depressed the past four years.) We have serious problems in need of serious fixing.

The coming presidential election has polarized this country. Democrat or Republican, it's nice to see people fired up and working hard for a positive direction for this country.



P.S. Sorry for the snide John Wayne comment - just wanted to show my true feelings on the matter.

Hey

I am back from the deep south

The original intent of this thread wasn't really aimed at those outside the U.S. bashing us,neither the thoughtful and fair questions of an Ogg, nor the less thoughtful kind. Nor was it aimed at the host of people here on the Ah who are americans and who as so passionate in their need for change that they can't pass up a chance to denounce the current president or his administration.

The essence of what I was upset about at the time was those who are so stirred to get rid of Bush and his cronies that their well founded attacks on him were diffusing into more general attacks on the country. Many are guilty of this minor trangression, some said so in reply, others in Pm. The dislike this president has spawned is so deep and stirs passions so powerfully, that in many the need to remove him becomes an all consuming flame.

In that flame you can either find a refiner's fire, a forge to hammer out your arguments into crystalline form or it can become a wild fire, burning out of control and consuming all, harming the guilty and innocent in equal measure.

Like many threads this one has moved far beyond my original intent, into a discussion that provides great insight and many ideas. There is much to read here I have missed, but it will be later before I can get down to reading all that has been said and replying if I feel the need.

Thanks to everyone who has added your thoughts & opinions. A discourse on a subject with multiple views is almost always something postive, for those who are willing to see.

-Colly

 

[OldnotDead]

. . .
Apropos anti- 'American' feelings: I was checking on official casualty figures from the State department a few days ago. From end of hostilities to 14th of this month they were stated as:

USA Dead - 973
UK Dead - 65
USA Injured - 6497

This aquates to 15 USA to each British soldier!

Now, however I look at these statistics, or whatever criteria I use, I think that prominent in there are two 'factors' to chew over:

Hate for 'America' is greater than for Britain, so Americans are prefered targets.

The style of 'administration', and approach to their role by USA personnel is more of an 'Occupying Force' one. The British approach is more on the lines of 'Guests' performing a 'Peace-keeping' role.

This is my own assessment. It would be interesting to hear others' views.

. . .

I think the ratio is much more a factor of the total number of US troops versus the number of British troops, coupled with the location of assignments.

I'm adding to my post after finding a BBC site article that has the numbers from July: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3873359.stm

I'm not saying that your observation is not correct. I'm just saying the large disparity is primarily one of numbers and secondarily location of work. That the insurgents have as their first target US troops is probably correct.

 

[Teenage Venus]

I think the ratio is much more a factor of the total number of US troops versus the number of British troops, coupled with the location of assignments.

This would appear logical. (I'm not gonna debate logic/truth, as that is taking a hammering on the 'RELIGION' thread .)

Have you thought of comparative areas/population per soldier respectively! And I think actual 'location' is of less import than how respective invaders/liberators set about the task, then ingratiate themselves with the community, and wave carrot or big stick.

I do think there was a significant difference in command approach. Mostly, the Brits have been well outnumbered by opposition in most conflicts, and relied on superior skills in warfare to see them through. We tend to rely more on numbers and superior weapons.

From what I have gleaned, we tended in general to rely on threats and the big stick to try secure stability in the North. In the South it was more diplomatic.

We tend to over-exuberate, as all-conquering heros. The Brits as a nation are more restrained. (Personal view.) The Brits also had been in Iraq for a long period prior to Sadaam. They did many things for Iraq. (For our 'bridge-builder - you may get chance to see the bridge at Fallujah the Royal Engineers put up for them yonks ago.) The pilots may be interested in the big airbase at Habbanya, built and used by the British for decades.

I think the common-or-garden variety of Iraqi has, in their background some mixture of fear/admiration/respect for the British. In the case of us, (USA) they may have fear, they have little respect. (Personal view again.)

This all brings us back to the need of projecting an image which commands respect and admiration for what we stand for, and what we have/can achieve. (Not to ourselves - we should know - to the rest of the world.)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Re: The Poles were there first

Poland stole an Enigma machine from Nazi Germany and gave it to the UK in 1939.

The German Navy's Enigma was slightly different and the Naval code wasn't broken until after the capture of U-110.

So next time you hear a Polish joke, remember that they outwitted the Nazis and kept that secret all through their occupation.

Og

On this note, the naval machine was different because it carried an extra wheel. It was defeated by the first computer, developed by the Brits at Blechley park. Collossus I believe it was called.

The poles gave the Brits a machine, but it was the British code breakers who really were the heros of the hour, considering the sheer volume of enigma traffic, it is a wonder they aren't still decoding orders from Barbarosa.

-Colly

 

[sweetnpetite]

I'm British (English). I don't love my country. I'm an old-fashioned internationalist. I'm very fond of the land I was born in and I find it hard to be away from it. I don't want to confuse that feeling with politics, for the politics enacted by the leaders of my country are separate from my attachment to place. Why should my love for the Yorkshire Moors or the Lake District mean I should believe in something my government decides to do in Iraq, or the Sudan, or down a neighbouring street?

I'm immensely proud, though, of the Beatles, Radiohead, David Hockney, many 19th century British novelists from Emily Bronte and George Eliot onwards and a few 20th century ones, Clement Attlee, my brother-in-law who led a UN mission to a very difficult place, Charles Darwin and a host of brilliant British scientists, British feminists like Sheila Rowbotham who insisted on linking the women's movement to class...

Enough.

Patrick

Good post.

I can agree with that, especially "I'm very fond of the land I was born in and I find it hard to be away from it. I don't want to confuse that feeling with politics, for the politics enacted by the leaders of my country are separate from my attachment to place. "

You make an excellent point. I really like the idea of likeing or loving your country as something unrelated to politics. That's something the politicians and pundants just can't seem to understand. I don't love my country as a political boundary, but I do love it as my home.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I'm not a nationalist myself; I stand more or less with patrick1 on that subject, and Perdita, insofar as I can glean her attitude from so brief a post. But if I didn't want good things for America I certainly wouldn't bother with politics.

what he said.

cant, I love your mind

 

[sweetnpetite]

Sixth, as many liberals have stated: the right-wing junta has no right to posture themselves as being the sole party of patriotism and the mindless idiots who believe that to love one's country means voting republican, I have little respect for. In other words, while I am patriotic in the literal sense of the word, I have little use for the industry of patriotism, jingoism, and nationalism. I cheer for my flag but I refuse to see the pledge of alleigance fight as a patriotic debate. I want my country to win gold, but I refuse to support a war that is not defensive at its honest core of being. I love the feeling of calling myself an American, but I refuse to wave my flag in public as if that alone means SHIT. I am an American, a patriot, not a fuckwit "superpatriot" whose only love of America is a hatred for those different from his family.

Seventh, I believe that loving your country also means loving and respecting the country. That means having a quiet reverence for the nature in your area, protecting the creatures that live near you, loving the views, the natural formations, the history that occurred in the country, the various groups that once lived here, the mythologies that once thrived here as religions, and above all the diversity of climate, people, and everything else that makes this place such a melting pot. Not to mention loving the spirit of independence forged into the very culture. I love these things and I'm not confident that most "superpatriots" do.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Now I am all lost peoples, where are we? Reading Lucifer's stuff I always feel like he shouldn't make sense, and a little scared cause he does make sense. He ain't talking about me, I used to be a mindless idiot, but I am no longer a PUBLICAN since Bush got in office................ or a mindless idiot. (I wanted to clear that up)

Anywho, I had to become a democrat cause there ain't no other choices. I hope Kerry can do a better job, he, he. It shouldn't be too hard to stop accidentally invading countries and starting wars cause you get confused.

Somebody started another thread with the same name and that got me all flappergrated and mixed up.

I will cover all bases and say "I love country music" and "I love my country."

 

[Guest]

First off, thanks everybody for the big welcome It's great to be here.

Second, props to those to see through the lie that conservatives are the only ones who love their country *coughJaggedcough* Sure, I support gay marriage, sure I support legalizing pot. Sure, I engage in premarital sex--loads of it (no pun intended ) And according to Rush, Sean, and Ann, I'm behind the "war being waged on the American family."

But guess what? I'm also volunteering to die, for those who would continue to tell me what a shitty American I am.

You wanna thank your servicemen, people? Go to the polls this November, and vote that son of a bitch out of office.

I'll see you there.