I love my Country

[Teenage Venus]

It seems to me the U.S. faces a no win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Intervene in a crisis and half the world will damn you for meddling in someone else's affairs. Don't intervene and half the world will damn you for not caring.

There is an earthquake in Iran, we send aid, even after their government says it won't change the diplomatic status between us and Iran. And all those who hate us take no notice. No vital american interest was served, there was no payoff, save doing the right thing on a humanitarian scale. No credit for even trying.

There is a civil war in Sudan. If we intervene you will curse us for playing sherrif and note Sudan has oil. If we don't you will curse us for letting the bloodshed continue and not using our power to stop it.

You wonder why many of us have a "Fuck you if you can't take a joke" attitude? I'd say it's because a lot of us have realized we can't win. You don't hate us because of our action or inaction, you just hate us. Anything we do (or don't do) is just allowing you to give your invective a reson for existing.

As Og noted third world countires hate us. It's easy for a mad cleric to promise salvation to someone who has nothing. Well yeah. But what are we supposed to do about it? Stop living? Stop consuming? What? There is no answer. You can't make sub saharan africa into Palm Springs. Even if we could, half of you would accuse us of meddling. -Colly

Quite an indignant outburst, Colly. Your first sentence is unfortunately true - the question you need to ask is 'WHY?' - A number of reasons have already been expressed.

Relief to Iran MAY have been totally altruistic. From past experience, others look for the ulterior motive. So many times have the USA 'intervened/helped out overtly or covertly - or ignored - simply because it was in the interests of big business and politics.

As for some cleric promising things to those with nothing, and what can WE do about it? - How about letting them trade fairly, in fair competition, for starters? Instead of banning their stuff so big business don't lose out on profits?

How about us banning import of goods produced by kids in 'sweatshops' owned by our big buisnesses abroad?

Sure they hate us - mostly with good reason.
Sure we do good - but WHY are our motives always questioned?

"You wonder why many of us have a "Fuck you if you can't take a joke" attitude?" - Believe me, Colly, it is no joke to hundreds of millions of people that have felt the injustice, and 'Big Bully' tactics of our country, and continue to do so. We even buy our own way - by promises and threats - in the United Nations.

If you have - or do travel outside the US - to Europe, the Middle, or Far East, and talk to 'Joe Citizen', maybe you WOULD start 'giving a fuck', and see we have much to answer for, and much to be ashamed of.

I know some of it is a case of 'Give a dog a bad name', but we earned it, and need to each do something in our small way to repair the damage. Sadly, outbursts like yours may get some anger off your chest, however, does little to help redress.

 

[comp|icity]

Can't resist a good old fashioned debate like this....

I agree a lot with Colly's statement.

America is 'hated' because they are at the top, they are the superpower.

Humans like to knock whoever is at the top, it seems to be in our nature, to be honest it is jealousy that drives us on to improve ourselves (in positive form) it is what makes us bitch and call people 'keener' in school (in its negative form)

Britain was hated when it was the superpower (Americans know this well). To be honest though, I think America has done a better job in general of being an 'Empire' than Britain did. And Britain did a better job at it than the Ottamans. I hope, as humanity progresses the next 'empire' nation will do a better job than the Americans.

Its a shame that recently George Bush has got into power, he seems to really jar with other nationalities (his ideas really don't match with ours in many areas) and is giving the US bad PR.

This brings me to a good point that cloudy made:

I have to admit, it does sadden me that some have such a negative perception of us as a whole, without really knowing any of us as individuals.

This is not all that uncommon either. There is an ancient rivalry between Britain and France (as nations) although many of us know each others families and get on extremely well as individuals. It is not a real i'm-going-to-wipe-out-you-and-all-your-seed rivalry it's a you-do-things-differnently-to-us-and-we-think-you're-stupid-nah-nah-nah rivalry.

Most people on this site are from 'western developed' nations I think, and their gripes with the US fall into the latter category of the above rivalries. I don't think any of us really understand the people out there that have the former form of rivalry for the US (although Ogg provided some very good pointers/ideas)

ok, that was my bit...
(although everyone appears to be off line now so I may have just wasted my breath )

 

[cloudy]

Quite an indignant outburst, Colly. Your first sentence is unfortunately true - the question you need to ask is 'WHY?' - A number of reasons have already been expressed.

Relief to Iran MAY have been totally altruistic. From past experience, others look for the ulterior motive. So many times have the USA 'intervened/helped out overtly or covertly - or ignored - simply because it was in the interests of big business and politics.

As for some cleric promising things to those with nothing, and what can WE do about it? - How about letting them trade fairly, in fair competition, for starters? Instead of banning their stuff so big business don't lose out on profits?

How about us banning import of goods produced by kids in 'sweatshops' owned by our big buisnesses abroad?

Sure they hate us - mostly with good reason.
Sure we do good - but WHY are our motives always questioned?

"You wonder why many of us have a "Fuck you if you can't take a joke" attitude?" - Believe me, Colly, it is no joke to hundreds of millions of people that have felt the injustice, and 'Big Bully' tactics of our country, and continue to do so. We even buy our own way - by promises and threats - in the United Nations.

If you have - or do travel outside the US - to Europe, the Middle, or Far East, and talk to 'Joe Citizen', maybe you WOULD start 'giving a fuck', and see we have much to answer for, and much to be ashamed of.

I know some of it is a case of 'Give a dog a bad name', but we earned it, and need to each do something in our small way to repair the damage. Sadly, outbursts like yours may get some anger off your chest, however, does little to help redress.

To continue in this idea...

Why not address the problems here before we worry about everyone else? Why is the entire world our responsibility? I don't see anyone else rushing to help us (except for the UK - excuse this for a sec, Og).

The native population, for the most part, lives on piss poor land that nobody else wants; the kids go to sub-standard schools, and don't have much to look forward to as adults. What about them?

I'll be honest....I feel for people in other countries, I do. But we have many more problems here, Venus, that need addressing.

Human nature explains a lot of what you're pointing out, and unless human nature changes, things like that won't change, sad to say. I'm not unsympathetic, just realistic. If it wasn't us, it would be someone else. Doesn't make it right, just makes it reality.

You're good at pointing the finger at others, but what are you doing to make things better here?

 

[Teenage Venus]

You're good at pointing the finger at others, but what are youdoing to make things better here?

Hey! you don't REALLY expect me to blow my own trumpet do you Cloudy?

Actually, if you check just THIS thread you will see - in my rather brash way - I'm trying to get other Americans that may have their head in the sand, or fail to understand WHY others dislike/distrust us, to maybe think, and do some checking, and start to question.

Elections are looming!

My background was poverty. I have travelled a little outside the US. I was caught up in strife in Africa whilst helping in a jungle hospital. I have empathy with many that feel they have a grievance - be it US born Blacks in a New York ghetto, Arabs in Jordan, or 'Pakkies' in Bradford UK.

I'm striving to be a doctor - not to make big bucks here - rather to help in less affluent countries. For although our own slums are many, shocking, and disgusting, in general, they are put in the shade by those of the vast world beyond our shores. If I can do a little to help - whilst showing the US flag - I will feel I'm doing a little bit to redress my country's ills, and bring it into better repute. As the woman who pissed in the sea said "Every drop helps." I hope some on here will maybe have reason to re-think their attitude and do their bit too.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Quite an indignant outburst, Colly. Your first sentence is unfortunately true - the question you need to ask is 'WHY?' - A number of reasons have already been expressed.

Relief to Iran MAY have been totally altruistic. From past experience, others look for the ulterior motive. So many times have the USA 'intervened/helped out overtly or covertly - or ignored - simply because it was in the interests of big business and politics.

As for some cleric promising things to those with nothing, and what can WE do about it? - How about letting them trade fairly, in fair competition, for starters? Instead of banning their stuff so big business don't lose out on profits?

How about us banning import of goods produced by kids in 'sweatshops' owned by our big buisnesses abroad?

Sure they hate us - mostly with good reason.
Sure we do good - but WHY are our motives always questioned?

"You wonder why many of us have a "Fuck you if you can't take a joke" attitude?" - Believe me, Colly, it is no joke to hundreds of millions of people that have felt the injustice, and 'Big Bully' tactics of our country, and continue to do so. We even buy our own way - by promises and threats - in the United Nations.

If you have - or do travel outside the US - to Europe, the Middle, or Far East, and talk to 'Joe Citizen', maybe you WOULD start 'giving a fuck', and see we have much to answer for, and much to be ashamed of.

I know some of it is a case of 'Give a dog a bad name', but we earned it, and need to each do something in our small way to repair the damage. Sadly, outbursts like yours may get some anger off your chest, however, does little to help redress.

Why? Interesting question. So far the only solid why I have seen is that they are jealous of what we have, jealous of our consumerisim, jealous of our standard of living.

And your response is to lower trade barriers that protect our farmers and our bussiness. You also want to raise the price of goods, by refusing to accept items made in other countries in sweat shops. Yet, if you refuse to buy them, won't they then cry out that we are not buying thier goods and thus we are being unfair? If the goods are made legally, according to their laws, won't we be using our economic muscle to make them change their internal law? Isn't that why people hate us in the first place? Isn't that being sherrif again?

Are you not simply applying your idea of what's right and using the hammer of U.S. economic dominance to forward that agenda, rather than the dollars first agenda it currently sustains?

I see a catch-22. A situation where you cannot do right, whatever right is, without doing wrong, whatever wrong is. Applying a very liberal view dosen't change the fact that you are using the same forces to forward your agenda. And in doing so, you are playing the same game, the altruism of your agenda dosen't make it any less opressive. And as you noted about our help in Iran, no one will give you credit for doing anything without an ulterior motive.

-Colly

 

[Teenage Venus]

Why? Interesting question. So far the only solid why I have seen is that they are jealous of what we have, jealous of our consumerisim, jealous of our standard of living.

Oh! How wrong you are, Colly. In a recent poll among a considerable variety of citizens of poor countries, the overwhelming majority had no wish or desire to live in America, and share the dream. All they wanted was that America play fair in world trade, and stop interfering in their politics, and stop using threats to get their own way.

Obviously you are not open to the rantings of a prejudiced girl. Maybe Ogg can explain what I mean about 'fair trade' and US policy and practices with other countries, and maybe he can get through to you.

I can answer the rest if you wish, however I feel your mind is not open to accepting some facts you disagree with. I admire you for speaking your mind though, and standing by what you believe.

Candida

 

[CrazyyAngel]

Oh! How wrong you are, Colly. In a recent poll among a considerable variety of citizens of poor countries, the overwhelming majority had no wish or desire to live in America, and share the dream. All they wanted was that America play fair in world trade, and stop interfering in their politics, and stop using threats to get their own way.

I have to agree with her here ... Its not that the people are jealous, they just want the US to mind their own fucking business and don't interfere with theirs.

CA

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Oh! How wrong you are, Colly. In a recent poll among a considerable variety of citizens of poor countries, the overwhelming majority had no wish or desire to live in America, and share the dream. All they wanted was that America play fair in world trade, and stop interfering in their politics, and stop using threats to get their own way.

Obviously you are not open to the rantings of a prejudiced girl. Maybe Ogg can explain what I mean about 'fair trade' and US policy and practices with other countries, and maybe he can get through to you.

I can answer the rest if you wish, however I feel your mind is not open to accepting some facts you disagree with. I admire you for speaking your mind though, and standing by what you believe.

Candida

Being jealous of what we have, does not imply wanting to live our way. That's a logical fallacy. I would love to have the weath of the king of Saud, but I wouldn't want to live the way he does.

If you refuse to buy goods, produced legally in their country, then are you playing fair? Or are you changeing or atempting to change their internal politics to fit what you find acceptable?

I am not closed minded, but while you feel you are free of patriotic rose colored glasses, I feel I am free of idealistic rose colored glasses. I am not being facetious, but it seems to me that your plan is using our economic might to change internal politics. If I can see it that way, it seems pretty obvious to me that those who have a predecision to hate us will see it that way. And with that we come back to the catch-22 I percieve. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

-Colly

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I have to agree with her here ... Its not that the people are jealous, they just want the US to mind their own fucking business and don't interfere with theirs.

CA

Thus far you have agreed with everything and everyone who has a beef against the U.S. I wonder why you think agreeing here should come as some kind of surprise?

-Colly

 

[Belegon]

any body want to look into the economic impact worldwide of the U.S. not flexing it's economic muscle? From just a complete lay person's first impression, the decline of american consumerism would seem to have some pretty scary possibilities for many "up and coming" economic "success" stories...

 

[CrazyyAngel]

Thus far you have agreed with everything and everyone who has a beef against the U.S. I wonder why you think agreeing here should come as some kind of surprise?

-Colly

Just for the record. I don't hate the US. All I wanted was to explain why people might dislike or even hate the US as this seems to be completely unfathomable for some people. So spare me your snappy comments.

CA

 

[OldnotDead]

US vs them

Took me a little more digging, but I did find a PEW research poll that had some data about World views of the US. Pew Research is generally perceived as a left leaning organization, although they are highly respected by most in that when they do some of their comprehensive polls the samples are large and the questions complex.

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=165

Is the web page with the summary comments and links to download the entire report. This one was done at the end of 2002 as we prepared for war in Iraq. I could not find a more recent version of such a comprehensive report.

What I think it illustrates more than anything is something that was touched on by McKenna and restated in a variety of different ways. Media pundits, politicians and others with specific agendas would like to portray the world as having a specific attitude about America. The truth is much more complex.

As I read it through, there is also contradiction. That's human nature.

I think when you try to defend or justify sweeping statements about how the world, or even one country views another, you fall into the trap of accepting the statement as valid, when reality suggests that there are only certain areas of the world where there are such searing, one sided views.

ADDED: They do have a follow up survey - not as comprehensive, but focused on post war perceptions:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Just for the record. I don't hate the US. All I wanted was to explain why people might dislike or even hate the US as this seems to be completely unfathomable for some people. So spare me your snappy comments.

CA

For the record you have called me down before. Also for the record the fact you hate the U.S. is pretty self evident. I should also point out an admission on your part you haven't been here and don't know many americans. Your continuous reinteration of the fact you don't like the U.S. is wearisome and adding nothing to the conversation in general.

If you don't want comments then either stand aside when the conversation is above your head or add something when you speak.

Personally, you are not only pissing me off, you're boring me. I am discussing something with teen Venus and while I think we are eons apart in our world view, she is providing an argument and it is backed by some thought and experience. If you can add something beside, you guys suck, please do. If all you can do is parrot that, spare me. Or don't.

But if you think I will be silent while you continuously pop off, forget it. I am not intimidated by you and I have no respect for you.

-Colly

 

[CrazyyAngel]

For the record you have called me down before. Also for the record the fact you hate the U.S. is pretty self evident. I should also point out an admission on your part you haven't been here and don't know many americans. Your continuous reinteration of the fact you don't like the U.S. is wearisome and adding nothing to the conversation in general.

If you don't want comments then either stand aside when the conversation is above your head or add something when you speak.

Personally, you are not only pissing me off, you're boring me. I am discussing something with teen Venus and while I think we are eons apart in our world view, she is providing an argument and it is backed by some thought and experience. If you can add something beside, you guys suck, please do. If all you can do is parrot that, spare me. Or don't.

But if you think I will be silent while you continuously pop off, forget it. I am not intimidated by you and I have no respect for you.

-Colly

If it is really that self evident that I hate the US, either you haven't learned proper reading in your life or my english isn't as good as I want it to be.

And I am pissing you off and boring you? Huh ... how dare I. So for the sake of your mood mighty Colleen I'll bow out now.

CA

 

[Teenage Venus]

If you refuse to buy goods, produced legally in their country, then are you playing fair? Or are you changeing or atempting to change their internal politics to fit what you find acceptable?

If you 'force' them to take YOUR products - by bully tactics - but ban the import of theirs, what are you doing?

It's unfortunate so few of the 'third world' and many Eastern country's inhabitants can not afford computers (or are banned by US decree to buy them), so are unable to stick a few truths in here. (Not that they would be looking at an erotica site anyway .)

I guess we can't convert your mindset to seeing what most the rest of the world sees .

I am not being facetious, but it seems to me that your plan is using our economic might to change internal politics. If I can see it that way, it seems pretty obvious to me that those who have a predecision to hate us will see it that way. And with that we come back to the catch-22 I percieve. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'using our economic might to change internal politics'.

'Economic might' does not come into what I am seeking to do internally. What I'm seeking to do is get other Americans to see the reasons we are disliked, and accept it is mostly justified, and use their votes and voices to encourage our government - of whatever party - to act a little more responsibly in wielding the power invested in them.

At present - and for some time - 'big business' and the persuit of the almighty dollar, is/has dictated policy. Paradoxically, the power of the dollar has dropped dramatically in a couple of years. (As any Yank tourist will confirm.) We have suffered high unemployment - and if it was not for the Iraq war requiring that more troops were needed, and more munitions produced (to swell company coffers - probably a big reason we went to war with Iraq), we would have very high unemployment.

We need a government with a conscience that will look out for our interests - but not at the expense of bullying half the world, and not giving a shit about the rest of humanity unless it has imediately forseeable benefits for the bosses of commerce that dictate what our government will - or will not - do.

It does not take a genious to know that 'Iraq' was inevitable: It was just a matter of when Bush dare move. If he gets back in, as soon as Iraq is more stable he will start with Iran. That has been on his agenda for just as long.

The US rely on their might, and nuclear arsenal. When Iran and North Vietnam have them along with the UK, Isreal, Pakistan, India, China, Russia - and maybe a surprise Arab State, then the US 'Big Bully Stick' will not exist.

It only needs the Middle East to hang on to their oil then, and ban sale to us (USA), and our 'Empire Days' are over. (We may well be forced to seek monetary aid from Mexico .

We have set the world against the 'big bully'. The 'worms' WILL turn. There WILL be much bloodshed. We can't take that - African countries and others suffer losses daily. A million or two in 'collateral damage' is quite normal for them. They are mostly happy to commit suicide to 'take down the infidel' anyway. We Americans have not the stomach to take that. Jesus - a mere 6.000 in the twin towers nearly tore our hearts out.

Others do not think like us, or hold life (our own - not others), so precious as we do. A few million Americans lost in a pre-emptive, or retaliatory strike would knock the stuffing out of us. We have not the stomach to take it like the Poles, Jews, or like the Russians at Stalingrad. We have grown used to the good life, have everyone afraid of us. Like the usual bully, when stood up to we will deflate.

All this can be avoided by Americans thinking with heads, and not letting others do our thinking for us, or sitting back in complacency, unable to understand why we are hated.

 

[Guest]

 

[Colleen Thomas]

If you 'force' them to take YOUR products - by bully tactics - but ban the import of theirs, what are you doing?

It's unfortunate so few of the 'third world' and many Eastern country's inhabitants can not afford computers (or are banned by US decree to buy them), so are unable to stick a few truths in here. (Not that they would be looking at an erotica site anyway .)

I guess we can't convert your mindset to seeing what most the rest of the world sees . I'm not sure what you mean by 'using our economic might to change internal politics'.

'Economic might' does not come into what I am seeking to do internally. What I'm seeking to do is get other Americans to see the reasons we are disliked, and accept it is mostly justified, and use their votes and voices to encourage our government - of whatever party - to act a little more responsibly in wielding the power invested in them.

At present - and for some time - 'big business' and the persuit of the almighty dollar, is/has dictated policy. Paradoxically, the power of the dollar has dropped dramatically in a couple of years. (As any Yank tourist will confirm.) We have suffered high unemployment - and if it was not for the Iraq war requiring that more troops were needed, and more munitions produced (to swell company coffers - probably a big reason we went to war with Iraq), we would have very high unemployment.

We need a government with a conscience that will look out for our interests - but not at the expense of bullying half the world, and not giving a shit about the rest of humanity unless it has imediately forseeable benefits for the bosses of commerce that dictate what our government will - or will not - do.

It does not take a genious to know that 'Iraq' was inevitable: It was just a matter of when Bush dare move. If he gets back in, as soon as Iraq is more stable he will start with Iran. That has been on his agenda for just as long.

The US rely on their might, and nuclear arsenal. When Iran and North Vietnam have them along with the UK, Isreal, Pakistan, India, China, Russia - and maybe a surprise Arab State, then the US 'Big Bully Stick' will not exist.

It only needs the Middle East to hang on to their oil then, and ban sale to us (USA), and our 'Empire Days' are over. (We may well be forced to seek monetary aid from Mexico .

We have set the world against the 'big bully'. The 'worms' WILL turn. There WILL be much bloodshed. We can't take that - African countries and others suffer losses daily. A million or two in 'collateral damage' is quite normal for them. They are mostly happy to commit suicide to 'take down the infidel' anyway. We Americans have not the stomach to take that. Jesus - a mere 6.000 in the twin towers nearly tore our hearts out.

Others do not think like us, or hold life (our own - not others), so precious as we do. A few million Americans lost in a pre-emptive, or retaliatory strike would knock the stuffing out of us. We have not the stomach to take it like the Poles, Jews, or like the Russians at Stalingrad. We have grown used to the good life, have everyone afraid of us. Like the usual bully, when stood up to we will deflate.

All this can be avoided by Americans thinking with heads, and not letting others do our thinking for us, or sitting back in complacency, unable to understand why we are hated.

I disagree with your asessment of what we can take. Hitler, too, thought we were soft. At Omaha beach we were proved not to be. While I do agree we as a nation aren't of the same calibre as the greatest generation, I don't think we would fold in the face of attack. I don't think any of the powers you mentioned have the might or are anywhere near having the might to inflict the kind of casualties you envision.

The all mighty dollar rules. It has for a long time and will continue to do so. I do not believe you can change that. In a perfect world perhaps, but in this one, the very organs you would use to effect that change are at the mercy of big bucks. I don't see either party as having a significant amount of free will. Both are in the pockets of big bussiness.

To be honest, I don't think the average american cares about how we are percieved. It dosen't really make an impact on thier lives. Certainly you will find it a very hard sell to convince the majority they should pay more for their nike's or give up our econimic advantage for the benefit of foerigners.

I don't think you can show that doing these things would even change the perception noticeably. Palestinians and radical Islamics will continue to hate us as long as we support Isreal. Yet if you turn your back on basically the only ally we have in the region then we will exert zero influence. I don't think that's acceptable either.

Nafta has not significantly improved our relations with or perception by Mexicans. Most of Latin American will continue to hold a grudge against us, even if you gave them totally free acess to our markets. There is a lot of water under the bridge there.

I think your intentions are good. I don't think your solution is pragmatic. I don't see that anything we do will really make a difference. As Og noted we have so much and as long as their are people who have so much less, they will envy us. And envy is only a few steps from anger.

And if the solution is for us to have less or use less, then I think you are facing the hardest hard sell of all time.

-Colly

 

[Lisa Denton]

If you 'force' them to take YOUR products - by bully tactics - but ban the import of theirs, what are you doing?

It's unfortunate so few of the 'third world' and many Eastern country's inhabitants can not afford computers (or are banned by US decree to buy them), so are unable to stick a few truths in here. (Not that they would be looking at an erotica site anyway .)

I guess we can't convert your mindset to seeing what most the rest of the world sees . I'm not sure what you mean by 'using our economic might to change internal politics'.

'Economic might' does not come into what I am seeking to do internally. What I'm seeking to do is get other Americans to see the reasons we are disliked, and accept it is mostly justified, and use their votes and voices to encourage our government - of whatever party - to act a little more responsibly in wielding the power invested in them.

At present - and for some time - 'big business' and the persuit of the almighty dollar, is/has dictated policy. Paradoxically, the power of the dollar has dropped dramatically in a couple of years. (As any Yank tourist will confirm.) We have suffered high unemployment - and if it was not for the Iraq war requiring that more troops were needed, and more munitions produced (to swell company coffers - probably a big reason we went to war with Iraq), we would have very high unemployment.

We need a government with a conscience that will look out for our interests - but not at the expense of bullying half the world, and not giving a shit about the rest of humanity unless it has imediately forseeable benefits for the bosses of commerce that dictate what our government will - or will not - do.

It does not take a genious to know that 'Iraq' was inevitable: It was just a matter of when Bush dare move. If he gets back in, as soon as Iraq is more stable he will start with Iran. That has been on his agenda for just as long.

The US rely on their might, and nuclear arsenal. When Iran and North Vietnam have them along with the UK, Isreal, Pakistan, India, China, Russia - and maybe a surprise Arab State, then the US 'Big Bully Stick' will not exist.

It only needs the Middle East to hang on to their oil then, and ban sale to us (USA), and our 'Empire Days' are over. (We may well be forced to seek monetary aid from Mexico .

We have set the world against the 'big bully'. The 'worms' WILL turn. There WILL be much bloodshed. We can't take that - African countries and others suffer losses daily. A million or two in 'collateral damage' is quite normal for them. They are mostly happy to commit suicide to 'take down the infidel' anyway. We Americans have not the stomach to take that. Jesus - a mere 6.000 in the twin towers nearly tore our hearts out.

Others do not think like us, or hold life (our own - not others), so precious as we do. A few million Americans lost in a pre-emptive, or retaliatory strike would knock the stuffing out of us. We have not the stomach to take it like the Poles, Jews, or like the Russians at Stalingrad. We have grown used to the good life, have everyone afraid of us. Like the usual bully, when stood up to we will deflate.

All this can be avoided by Americans thinking with heads, and not letting others do our thinking for us, or sitting back in complacency, unable to understand why we are hated.

Hi TV, what little I know about our trade agreements is that they are so convoluted no one can understand them. I don't think that Japan suffers a bit from an import tax on their cars which includes the proviso that we buy the parts from them so we can assemble a car here and say it was made in america.

Every country has trade agreements which benifit the most deserving of countries, their own. If you want to call it bullying or survival it doesn't matter which term you put to it, those same countries we are "bullying" will cut our financial throats if given the chance.

Americans are a bit complacent, and sitting back, and not attempting what any other country would attempt if they were the worlds only superpower.

Iraq was, is, and will remain a fustercluck that an idiot surrounded by morons and incompetents got my country into. That does not mean america or americans are the same way.

We will turn into a country which will be respected and helpful to the rest of the world when we get our government to do what we elect them to do, represent us the people. It can be done, and will, without trashing the country or its people. You have not done that which I appreciate.

If we do not exert some influence over the world we would be doing a great injustice. We can and will be known as the country who could kick anybodies ass, but choose to talk and find a peaceful solution instead.

If we were to abandon Israel they would be forced to survive through bloody warfare much worse than todays tragic and ongoing incidents. The radicals who hate us for standing by Israel will still hate us for some other reason, real or imagined.

Americans may be forced to prove the resolve and resilience they have always had. Hopefully after getting out of Iraq. When and if we do I am sure that if huge losses are taken we will have the stuffing knocked out of us, and the complacency, and the arrogance. We will cry and mourn briefly. When we retaliate it will be swift and just and mighty. Without the huge arsenals we could use but with the minumum amount to achieve and maintain our survival.

You are right, we have a much higher regard for human life, but not only our own, all human life.

I guess I am agreeing with you on many points. The fact that I love my country is why I want to make it better. The only thing I do not agree with is that many of the things you say are unjust about our international involvement to me seem taken out of context. Without Iraq in the picture, what the US could do and does not do, has always been important to the rest of the world and a very important thing for each and every american, or at least this one.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

There are some who would hate us no matter what we do. There are also many who are jealous of our lifestyle. On the other hand, our culture (as is presented through our movies, television, and multinational fast-food corporations to the world) is sadly insipid and in some cases insulting (McDonald's in India). We are hated because we have unwittingly stepped into the role of ruler of the world and we're not sure how to deal with this responsibility and we're unwilling to set the full responsibility on the UN and go back to total isolationism.

I think we could help our image and what people think about us by actually making sure we bomb the right brown people when we go to war. Remember how many countries loved us before Iraq and how many hated us afterwards?

I also think we'd do a lot of good by only waging defensive wars and bowed out of the offensive war regime change business. If we don't wage wars under the justification of liberating people from tyranny, we won't be expected to liberate people and can lob that job to the UN who could request our aid when neccessary. When we did that over Yugoslavia, we got a minimum of condemnation. A boon for our nation if you will.

So in essence I agree and disagree with Colly. There are a great number of people who would hate us even if we handed them personally a million dollars, but on the other hand, there are things we can do less of to make them hate us overall less. The insulting of foreign cultures, bombing of people for the sins of their enemies, and letting our corporations be our foreign diplomats are all activities that really seem to add onto people's hatred of our country, our leaders, and to some degree our people.

 

[McKenna]

...and letting our corporations be our foreign diplomats are all activities...

I like this thought, LC. I was reading over in Black Tulip's Egypt thread about a KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken) being right across the street from the Sphinx. There are times when I cringe at something so typically American.

On a similar note, my husband recently spent a couple of weeks in China for work. He came home to tell me about the KFC's and McDonald's in Beijing -but he also told me about the "knock offs" right across the street. Same colors, same golden arch, same type of food, but not the real deal. My husband and his colleague's jokingly dubbed it "McChang's." (Colonel Chang's for the knock off KFC.)

It would appear that China has different laws about trademark infringement. In the street market, anything from Nike socks to Rolex watches are available, all for terribly reasonable prices because they are -you guessed it- knock offs. I have to laugh when I hear about this and almost feel like saying "you go China!" Cause in a way they're thumbing their noses at these larger-than-life corporations, corporations who very likely use cheap Chinese labor to manufacture their products.

My husband bought a boxed set of James Bond movies in China, (I'm sure it's totally legal, yeah, that's it. They aren't copies at all.) I was looking it over when he brought it home and noticed in the small print on the package, it said "James Rond." We still giggle about that one.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Well, I don’t know. When you say you love your country, what do you mean? That you love the physical place? The landscape? That you love the government and its policies? That you love everyone who lives there? Or that you love the culture and the lifestyle? Maybe that you love the values it professes, even if it doesn’t live up to them. I don’t know how you can say you love all of these. That just sounds like jingoism to me.

For me, I’ve never understood this American patriotism fetish. I mean, we were founded on being a nation where you were free to disagree, and so what’s more American than being unpatriotic?

I’m very suspicious of patriotism, just because you never know what it means, as I said above. (Probably most of us have some image of a waving flag and music playing, but that doesn’t really mean anything.) I think that’s why Dr. Johnson called patriotism the last refuge of the scoundrel. You can hide a lot of pretty nasty stuff by wrapping it in a flag.

So what are we talking about here?

---dr.M.

 

[patrick1]

People in the US are very genial and friendly - and idealistic. I've loved getting to know them, both here in cyberspace and in person.

It can be hard to understand why that geniality and idealism doesn't translate into political action. The Bush government for instance is stunningly corrupt, and voted in by a good 49 percent of US voters. I can hardly believe that Haliburton, its former CEO now Vice President, wins enormous Iraqi contracts without competition and no-one seriously complains. A man called Rumsfeld, who used to enjoy doing business with a man called Saddam Hussein, now seems to wield a lot of influence too. The leader himself seems to have run oil companies that never found oil yet made enormous profits. Why were you so preoccupied with Clinton's sexual relations with a consenting intern (a subject that would only risk impeachment in the USA, not in any other developed country), and not bothered with all this? I hope a brilliant novelist or two is inside the White House, developing the contemporary successor to Catch 22, so we'll eventually understand what's going on.

Meanwhile I'll continue I hope to enjoy genial 'American' (I feel the name belongs to the continent rather than a country) company hereabouts, and gaze in awe and horror at what is done in your name.

p

(thanks to McKenna for response about the flag)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

People in the US are very genial and friendly - and idealistic. I've loved getting to know them, both here in cyberspace and in person.

It can be hard to understand why that geniality and idealism doesn't translate into political action. The Bush government for instance is stunningly corrupt, and voted in by a good 49 percent of US voters. I can hardly believe that Haliburton, its former CEO now Vice President, wins enormous Iraqi contracts without competition and no-one seriously complains. A man called Rumsfeld, who used to enjoy doing business with a man called Saddam Hussein, now seems to wield a lot of influence too. The leader himself seems to have run oil companies that never found oil yet made enormous profits. Why were you so preoccupied with Clinton's sexual relations with a consenting intern (a subject that would only risk impeachment in the USA, not in any other developed country), and not bothered with all this? I hope a brilliant novelist or two is inside the White House, developing the contemporary successor to Catch 22, so we'll eventually understand what's going on.

Meanwhile I'll continue I hope to enjoy genial 'American' (I feel the name belongs to the continent rather than a country) company hereabouts, and gaze in awe and horror at what is done in your name.

p

(thanks to McKenna for response about the flag)

An answer to your question involves something you don't recognize. Screwed up foerign policy, corruprion, inability to comunicate, etc. Bush's party still appeals more than the Democrats to many Americans.

Over here, you have two choices when you vote. Democrat or Republican. If you vote democrat you vote for all they stand for. For many americans, they simply stand for too much that goes against what they believe.

Bush may be an ass, but he stands for a party and its platform. As long as he stands for those he is going to collect votes from a good portion of the population. Those who don't live here may not understand that, but it's very likely Bush will be elected again. That isn't neccessarily an endorsement of his foerign policy, it has a lot more to do with what his party stands for.

-Colly

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

An answer to your question involves something you don't recognize. Screwed up foerign policy, corruprion, inability to comunicate, etc. Bush's party still appeals more than the Democrats to many Americans.

Over here, you have two choices when you vote. Democrat or Republican. If you vote democrat you vote for all they stand for. For many americans, they simply stand for too much that goes against what they believe.

Bush may be an ass, but he stands for a party and its platform. As long as he stands for those he is going to collect votes from a good portion of the population. Those who don't live here may not understand that, but it's very likely Bush will be elected again. That isn't neccessarily an endorsement of his foerign policy, it has a lot more to do with what his party stands for.

-Colly

Okay, I might be asking to get slapped here, but I have to say it.

You do realize that Bush and the current right are violently homophobic right?

Again, I accept fully your right to slap me, but it just seemed a little odd.

 

[amicus]

One helluva thread....started by Colleen Thomas, I love my country?


Wow...the McKenna's the Cloudy's and all the rest that weighed in from all points of the compass...


If one can dismiss the anti Bush lot....and the Teen aged Venus passionate but really inane liberalism...and the cynicism of a few other regulars who just hate freedom in what ever guise it appears....what are we left with...?

We are left with those foreseeing the future based on the past, in some cases...a good thing...as perspective is needed, in other cases...not a good thing....as we cannot foretell the future....

We...the world is moving into a new future...(redundant, I know) but new in the sense...that the 'computer age' is just beginning.

Labor is being replaced by programmed machines, education is better served by computer than by classrooms, the technology between the apex of american business and third world countries is not even comparable.

In a decade or so...the petroleum of the middle east will not be needed by the western world....China and other third world countries will be the market....

Iran will undergo revolution, those countries supporting terrorism against the west will be isolated and and sanctioned until they change....

"I love my Country" at the forefront of the future, the United States of America...with a population comprised of all the cultures of the world will continue to 'invite' others into the 21st Century.

We took the most gold, the most silver, the most bronze, the most medals in the 2004 Olympics and we will do so in 2008 and 2012....and do I brag, you bet ur bippy I do...

Unlike others who apologize for the efficacy of a republic and a free enterprise system, I bemoan the fact that we must drag, kicking and screaming the recidivist monarchies of the rest of the world into the future.

There has never been a time in human history where one nation so dominated the world. In the space of a day, the United States of America, with a Nuclear first strike could dominate the world.

Why do we not?

Because we do not seek domination and never have.

This nation, of which I am, by birth, is unlike any other in history, and it should be viewed as such...unique...new...different....

Most Americans have no respect for the, "Life, Liberty and Pursuit..." so declared...most of the rest of the world has but a clue as to the meaning, yet they line up, millions deep to come here, by any means....

But it is not a given that America will always pay the price of intellectual, artistic and economic leadership in the world. From what I hear, here and in other places, the torch flickers and freedom wanes in the face of self doubt and indecision.

The USA may indeed fall, as did Rome, as did France and Spain and Great Britain and Germany and Russia and Japan...but it need not be so....

There is a science fiction novel...neither the name or the author can I recall...which had those of intellect and curiousity leave the earth and move to the stars...leaving behind the group grope liberals to tend the plants and animals....when we came back, 500 years later...they had reverted to an aboriginal existence.

Which is a fitting future to those who wish to live in the past...


USA! USA! USA! They shouted in Athens, Greece, in 2004!