I miss the fitness threads and the fitness Doms!

[Keroin]

My Trek. It's not this pretty any more though

It's aaaaalmost riding weather. If it is this temp over the weekend, I may just take some time to push some pedals.

Nice! I'd love to get another road bike but this just isn't road bike territory. My friend just bought a nice bike. There's a lever she can flip to lock off the suspension for street riding, then flip back for off road stuff. Very, very cool and way useful around here. Out of my budget this year but maybe next year.

At least when you live in mountain bike mecca, there's always lots of good quality second hand stuff up for grabs!

 

[Homburg]

Nice! I'd love to get another road bike but this just isn't road bike territory. My friend just bought a nice bike. There's a lever she can flip to lock off the suspension for street riding, then flip back for off road stuff. Very, very cool and way useful around here. Out of my budget this year but maybe next year.

At least when you live in mountain bike mecca, there's always lots of good quality second hand stuff up for grabs!

A buddy of mine has a Gary Fisher bike (a good bit more expensive than mine) and the front forks have the same sort of lock out feature. What I'm really jealous of, however, are his disc brakes. Sexy. My rims are set up for discs, but, wow, spendy to get the disc kit.

Personally, I'm not a fan of road bikes. I borrowed another friends Cannondale something for a bit. It felt completely unnatural, and I didn't really feel like I was all that much faster. I think the riding position was so wacky that I couldn't get into the groove. There's also more than a bit of stop and go on my usual route, and no long roadbike friendly straightaways.

And, yeah, I could imagine that there's all kinds of great deals on second-hand kit. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING worthwhile around here on the used market. It's either mass-market trash or stupendously expensive.

 

[Keroin]

A buddy of mine has a Gary Fisher bike (a good bit more expensive than mine) and the front forks have the same sort of lock out feature. What I'm really jealous of, however, are his disc brakes. Sexy. My rims are set up for discs, but, wow, spendy to get the disc kit.

Personally, I'm not a fan of road bikes. I borrowed another friends Cannondale something for a bit. It felt completely unnatural, and I didn't really feel like I was all that much faster. I think the riding position was so wacky that I couldn't get into the groove. There's also more than a bit of stop and go on my usual route, and no long roadbike friendly straightaways.

And, yeah, I could imagine that there's all kinds of great deals on second-hand kit. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING worthwhile around here on the used market. It's either mass-market trash or stupendously expensive.

My friend's bike has the disc brakes, too. I know...sweet.

I loved my road bike...it was a tri-bike and weighed about 2 ounces, lol. I loved those times when I'd be resting on the aerobars, tucked, you know, just totally in the groove. Aaaaaaaahh.

I didn't have a Roo but this is kind of what my bike looked like. (I called her "Red Racer")...

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/store08bikes/lg/07QRKilo.jpg

 

[damonX]

I squat about 450#, but squat wide and parallel, so it is more posterior chain dominant. The usual prescription for strengthening the quads are lunges, split squats, and the like, or possibly front squats. While front squats aren't all that horrible for my knees, they don't make my shoulders happy in any way. Is there something else that I can do that is quad dominant and might not kill my knees?

Or should I just keep squatting and trust that the quads will be plenty strong? This is my gut feeling, but I'm not above asking someone else for an opinion.

The comment I made about quad strength was in reference to knee osteoarthritis. In your case with PFS, the issue is minimizing sheer between the patella and the femur. I'm positive that quad strength is not an issue in your case.

The sheer during closed chain quad exercises increases with

a) The depth (increases the further you go down)
- Keep in mind that the muscular activity also increases, the further you go down so it
becomes a balance between maximizing quad activity and mimimizing stress.
b) Weight (Again a balance between muscular activity and stress)

I'm not a fan of front squats, because I find that the limiting factor becomes the amount of weight you can hold on your shoulders and not the amount that your legs can lift.

But again, quad strength isn't really an issue in your case. Just avoid anything that causes pain under the kneecap.

 

[damonX]

Thanks for your thoughts I appreciate it. I do have an appointment this week with the doctor for another issue and if it isn't better then I will be discussing it with her. It is driving me crazy though, having to think every time I go to walk up stairs is annoying.

Fell free to talk about it with your MD. Just understand that he/she will most likely give you a mild painkiller and tell you to "stay off it." He/she may also send you for an x-ray (which will not show anything). General practicioners have a very limited knowledge of musculoskeletal injuries.

 

[damonX]

Thank you for this. That's completely consistent with what I've heard from the surgeon.

The random night pain that was still there in the morning DID clear up by the end of the day. I did some heating and icing and elevation...not sure if any of that worked or if it resolved spontaneously, but who cares as long as it resolves, right?

Quadriceps strength...I hadn't heard that before. I've been told to do some cycling to build up "knee strength" but I didn't know precisely which muscles that was supposed to mean, nor do I enjoy cycling, indoors or out. Quad strength, however, I definitely know how to address. Again, thank you, that's helpful.

Yeah, cycling is usually prescribed as an exercise because it is non weight bearing and there is no impact so its easier on the knees, but in terms of strength building it will have minimal effect.
Some resistance exercise would be the best way the best way to stengthen the quads. Squats tend to be the best, although you should be able to do any quad exercise.

 

[Homburg]

My friend's bike has the disc brakes, too. I know...sweet.

I loved my road bike...it was a tri-bike and weighed about 2 ounces, lol. I loved those times when I'd be resting on the aerobars, tucked, you know, just totally in the groove. Aaaaaaaahh.

I didn't have a Roo but this is kind of what my bike looked like. (I called her "Red Racer")...

I'll admit,t hat bike looks slick and fast. Still road bikes are alien animals to me. After all, I can bomb down a trail on my MTB and still hit the road well enough. Sure, I won't keep up with the speedy guys on their unitasker bikes, but, hell, I'm not likely to keep up with them anyway

And that "groove" is one I'm not likely to hit. Those bikes just don't fit me. Well, the fat forward position doesn't work. Boo.

As an aside, have you seen the belt drive bikes they're making now? Crrrrazy.

--

The comment I made about quad strength was in reference to knee osteoarthritis. In your case with PFS, the issue is minimizing sheer between the patella and the femur. I'm positive that quad strength is not an issue in your case.

The sheer during closed chain quad exercises increases with

a) The depth (increases the further you go down)
- Keep in mind that the muscular activity also increases, the further you go down so it becomes a balance between maximizing quad activity and mimimizing stress.
b) Weight (Again a balance between muscular activity and stress)

I'm not a fan of front squats, because I find that the limiting factor becomes the amount of weight you can hold on your shoulders and not the amount that your legs can lift.

But again, quad strength isn't really an issue in your case. Just avoid anything that causes pain under the kneecap.

I figured it was something along these lines. I guess I worry about imbalance because in previous years I went seriously press-heavy and didn't really work elbow flexion. After a few months of this, my elbows were killing me. Taking a hard look at my overall volume made me drop the press volume and add a whole lot more pull (a characteristic of my current program), and the elbow pain went away.

Visually, my quads 'look' good. They're proportional in size with the hams. This is a difference from the elbow issue of years back when my tris blew up but the bis were just sorta there. Visual results are not a metric I care about, but keeping them similar in proportion seems to help me avoid ache. *shrug* May be magical thinking on my part.

The only time I squat deep is unloaded. I still do BW deck squats for full range of motion. I don't overdo it, but I figure practicing that range will keep me able to reach it when I get older. This sort of occasional practice is why I can still do front splits at 37.

Glad to see we're on the same page overall with front squats. And thanks for the response.

 

[WriterDom]

It's hard to find a spot on my core where I'm not sore from the yoga. I feel like I've been in the cage with a MMA fighter taking body shots. It's uncomfortable but I did lift tonight. Thursday or Friday I'll do some DVDs on my own. Try to work up to three days or nights a week. If I can get one class it's not a lot to ask of me to workout twice on my own. Or one yoga and one Pilates even. Pilates to me is a lot easier because you are moving and not holding positions.

 

[damonX]

I'll admit,t hat bike looks slick and fast. Still road bikes are alien animals to me. After all, I can bomb down a trail on my MTB and still hit the road well enough. Sure, I won't keep up with the speedy guys on their unitasker bikes, but, hell, I'm not likely to keep up with them anyway

And that "groove" is one I'm not likely to hit. Those bikes just don't fit me. Well, the fat forward position doesn't work. Boo.

As an aside, have you seen the belt drive bikes they're making now? Crrrrazy.

--



I figured it was something along these lines. I guess I worry about imbalance because in previous years I went seriously press-heavy and didn't really work elbow flexion. After a few months of this, my elbows were killing me. Taking a hard look at my overall volume made me drop the press volume and add a whole lot more pull (a characteristic of my current program), and the elbow pain went away.

Visually, my quads 'look' good. They're proportional in size with the hams. This is a difference from the elbow issue of years back when my tris blew up but the bis were just sorta there. Visual results are not a metric I care about, but keeping them similar in proportion seems to help me avoid ache. *shrug* May be magical thinking on my part.

The only time I squat deep is unloaded. I still do BW deck squats for full range of motion. I don't overdo it, but I figure practicing that range will keep me able to reach it when I get older. This sort of occasional practice is why I can still do front splits at 37.

Glad to see we're on the same page overall with front squats. And thanks for the response.

I'm actually a big fan of deep squats. The recomendation of 90 degrees has no basis whatsoever. In terms of quad development, the deeper the better (just as geater ROM is usually better in all exercises). It pisses me off when personal trainers walk up to people in gyms and admonish them for doing deep squats because "you're not supposed to do them."

I go to just below 90 because that's what I'm comfortable with. (I'm very inflexible). But here's no reason people shouldn't go lower. It just creates more sheer stress on the patella, so if there is a pre-exising condition it may make it worse.

 

[Homburg]

I'm actually a big fan of deep squats. The recomendation of 90 degrees has no basis whatsoever. In terms of quad development, the deeper the better (just as geater ROM is usually better in all exercises). It pisses me off when personal trainers walk up to people in gyms and admonish them for doing deep squats because "you're not supposed to do them."

I go to just below 90 because that's what I'm comfortable with. (I'm very inflexible). But here's no reason people shouldn't go lower. It just creates more sheer stress on the patella, so if there is a pre-exising condition it may make it worse.

I used to be a big fan of deep squats. It probably contributed to my current situation

I have no problems suggesting deep squats in populations that are capable. I don't ever get those people, but in theory I am cool with it. No, strike that. Eldest daughter sometimes comes down to exercise. When she does, I have her alternate between thrusters and planks, with a 5lb weight in each hand, and she goes deep naturally. She's 9 and her knees are just ducky.

Now, here's a more personal question - you describe yourself as "very inflexible." Is there a mechanical reason for that? I would think that a PT would have all sorts of tricks up his sleeve for mobility and flexibility. Or are you just describing yourself that way because you aren't as flexible as you'd like?

 

[damonX]

I used to be a big fan of deep squats. It probably contributed to my current situation

I have no problems suggesting deep squats in populations that are capable. I don't ever get those people, but in theory I am cool with it. No, strike that. Eldest daughter sometimes comes down to exercise. When she does, I have her alternate between thrusters and planks, with a 5lb weight in each hand, and she goes deep naturally. She's 9 and her knees are just ducky.

Now, here's a more personal question - you describe yourself as "very inflexible." Is there a mechanical reason for that? I would think that a PT would have all sorts of tricks up his sleeve for mobility and flexibility. Or are you just describing yourself that way because you aren't as flexible as you'd like?

Yeah, it is definately possible that they did contribute to your condition. It's a risk/benefit situation an I certanly wouldn't suggest it now, especially if your body weight is high.

As for the flexibility issue:
Flexibility is a concept in whcih there is a lot of misconception about. I am inflexible in comparison to the general population. Always have been, always will. My muscles are tight and my connective tissue is as well. Even when I stretch everyday, gains are very minimal.

A common myth is that "the more flexible, the better." This is an antiquated idea and no longer subscibed to among most knowledgeable health care and fitness professionals. Flexibilty has been removed from the criteria of Health related fitness by the ACSM, and placed in the Performance-related category. Of course people are required to possess a functional level of flexibilty in order to perform normal function, but the level required for this is something that the majority of people already have. There is absolutely no benefit to having greater that normal flexibilty, unless it is required or advantageous for a specific sport or activity.

Now I'm the lower end of the spectrum in terms of flexibilty, but with the exception of being unable to sit cross-legged, it doesn't affect me at all. It is however, completely reasonable for a person to maintain his/her flexibillity, as it will decrease with age to a point that it may become a negative factor.

Now that being said, sometimes a specific muscle's lack of length may contribute to a muscular imbalance that can cause problems when combined with prolonged activity. But being overly fexible has no health benefit and maybe harmful in the meantime. Having lengthened muscle causes no problems, but this is usually accompanied by stretched ligaments which will lead to an increased risk of problems. This is why gymnasts and other such athletes have an increased incidence and earlier onset of age-related arthritis.

 

[Homburg]

Yeah, it is definately possible that they did contribute to your condition. It's a risk/benefit situation an I certanly wouldn't suggest it now, especially if your body weight is high.

As for the flexibility issue:
Flexibility is a concept in whcih there is a lot of misconception about. I am inflexible in comparison to the general population. Always have been, always will. My muscles are tight and my connective tissue is as well. Even when I stretch everyday, gains are very minimal.

A common myth is that "the more flexible, the better." This is an antiquated idea and no longer subscibed to among most knowledgeable health care and fitness professionals. Flexibilty has been removed from the criteria of Health related fitness by the ACSM, and placed in the Performance-related category. Of course people are required to possess a functional level of flexibilty in order to perform normal function, but the level required for this is something that the majority of people already have. There is absolutely no benefit to having greater that normal flexibilty, unless it is required or advantageous for a specific sport or activity.

I've long been of the opinion that while warming up prior to exercise is useful, stretching beforehand is overrated (for most activities). I don't stretch prior to lifting as, frankly, it leaves me feeling weaker. When I did MA, I refused to stretch prior to that. I always stretched afterwards when the muscles were warm, loose, and relaxed.

These days, I don't specifically stretch at all. I focus on mobility, and good ROM, and leave it at that. That said, I'm naturally flexible, so my moments of 'practice' as mentioned before, are all it takes too keep me as limber as needed.

Now I'm the lower end of the spectrum in terms of flexibilty, but with the exception of being unable to sit cross-legged, it doesn't affect me at all. It is however, completely reasonable for a person to maintain his/her flexibillity, as it will decrease with age to a point that it may become a negative factor.

Now that being said, sometimes a specific muscle's lack of length may contribute to a muscular imbalance that can cause problems when combined with prolonged activity. But being overly fexible has no health benefit and maybe harmful in the meantime. Having lengthened muscle causes no problems, but this is usually accompanied by stretched ligaments which will lead to an increased risk of problems. This is why gymnasts and other such athletes have an increased incidence and earlier onset of age-related arthritis.

Where is the line drawn between inflexibility and "tight calves" and the like? Tight muscles negatively affect performance, but inflexibility does not?

In my own cases, I've dealt with people with tight calves, tight hip flexors, tight hamstrings, etc, and when the problems were resolved, performance improved in terms of lifting, gait, mobility, etc.

 

[Homburg]

DEADLIFT DAY Cycle 2, Wave C
150x5
185x5
225x3 Warm-ups done
280x5
315x3
355x8 Rep calc says a weedy 450# Boooo.

My balance was CRAP today. First set, at 150#, and I pitch forward as I'm pulling the first rep. I didn't fall, but felt myself leaning. Three times after that I had issues, with the top set almost seeing me topple backwards to the point where LB was jumping up and yelling. I kept the weight, but decided to cut the set short because I was wobbling again. No weakness, no muscle failure, I was just unbalanced and I don't know why. I was cussing myself for putting it down, but I just knew that I was gonna tip forward or back, and hurt myself seriously.

I think I am ready for the deload. I've been feeling ragged and not wanting to lift, and have been having little aches and pains that I usually don't feel. It's time to back down. Fortunately, I only have one more session prior to deload. I'm not gonna cuss it this time.

Bridges, 2x25ct

Seated Power Cleans w 2x20# DB's, 1x30, 1x25

I think I need to use heavier DB's on this movement.

 

[Keroin]

I did another HIIT class last night.

Now I remember why I stay away from group fitness classes. You know, I am seriously too intense and competitive sometimes and I have a wicked "teachers pet" streak. Having said that, it does push me, which is what I'm looking for right now.

Anyway, funny moment in the class last night. The instructor has us lunging back and forth, throwing jabs, (brutally bad form, BTW, gah, it hurt me to watch), and so I automatically shift into martial arts mode. It feels good, it's been a long time since I've thrown a punch. But, in the middle of it, I suddenly look around and realize that the other women are just kind of bouncing around tossing their arm out and I look like I'm ready to pull someone's head off their neck, lol. The upside is, they gave me lots of room to move.

I should probably think about finding some kind of martial arts classes here. I really do miss fighting. And I need to clone myself so I can do all the sports I want to do.

 

[Homburg]

Anyway, funny moment in the class last night. The instructor has us lunging back and forth, throwing jabs, (brutally bad form, BTW, gah, it hurt me to watch)

I can't even watch those classes. Why tell someone to throw a punch if you're not going to teach basic form? Good form uses more muscle and more energy.

I should probably think about finding some kind of martial arts classes here. I really do miss fighting. And I need to clone myself so I can do all the sports I want to do.

LB is a former wrestler, and we will occasionally foray in BS'ing about grappling and sparring. It does make me miss it. Fortunately, I have no mats, and no space for mats if I did, so I'm not likely to kill myself. Unfortunately, I can't convince anyone to put on the gloves and headgear and do some boxing with me

 

[Keroin]

I can't even watch those classes. Why tell someone to throw a punch if you're not going to teach basic form? Good form uses more muscle and more energy.

Well, I think it's more about just movement for the sake of movement for these folks but...yeah...if you know what you're doing, then it definitely prompts some cringing. The rest of the class is quite good though, with lots of high intensity, low bullshit exercises like burpees, jumping jacks, lunges, etc. Plus it's only 45 min, so I can still squeeze in weights and swimming afterward.

Unfortunately, I can't convince anyone to put on the gloves and headgear and do some boxing with me

Give your eldest daughter a few years, then I bet she'll be happy to go a few rounds with the old man.

 

[graceanne]

My girls are in taekwondo and they can't wait to tussle with their dad once they are further along. K says he's gonna have to start taking taekwondo so the girls can't kick his butt when they get older and bigger. (Our older girl is going to be about his height. Not his weight or muscle mass, obviously.)

 

[Homburg]

Well, I think it's more about just movement for the sake of movement for these folks but...yeah...if you know what you're doing, then it definitely prompts some cringing. The rest of the class is quite good though, with lots of high intensity, low bullshit exercises like burpees, jumping jacks, lunges, etc. Plus it's only 45 min, so I can still squeeze in weights and swimming afterward.

I can see movement for movement's sake, but, sheesh. Proper technique means more energy expended.

Burpees are definitely low BS. Unfortunately, the jump at the end is badness for my knees, so I just back it down to squat-thrusts.

I'm thinking about doing a week of bike rides for my deload week and just letting the bar sit.

Give your eldest daughter a few years, then I bet she'll be happy to go a few rounds with the old man.

Eldest Daughter has been punching me for years. I got tired of the bad form early on, and gave her pointers. She throws a damned mean cross for a nine year old. I haven't taught her a hook yet as I don't want to lose my spleen from one of her sucker punches.

She took to form really easily too. Eldest son? Not so much. That boy is just too nice. Not a hurtful bone in his body. If it weren't for his occasionally ferocious temper, I'd be unworried. Youngest has decided that the "Punch Papa in the Gut" game looks like fun, so she is taking it up too.

I'm gonna regret this

 

[WriterDom]

Time for a change. Going to a five day lifting schedule. One muscle group a week. My right (weak) shoulder is giving me trouble. I'll do legs tomorrow and just rest the shoulder until Monday.

 

[Homburg]

Time for a change. Going to a five day lifting schedule. One muscle group a week. My right (weak) shoulder is giving me trouble. I'll do legs tomorrow and just rest the shoulder until Monday.

One muscle group a week, or one a day?


Oh, and I pressed the 70# KB fives times each arm. Officially impressed myself, I did.

 

[Cattypuss]

Think I've got a chest infection coming on, godammit! That'll scupper my walking schedule.

 

[Bandit58]

The instructor has us lunging back and forth, throwing jabs, (brutally bad form, BTW, gah, it hurt me to watch), and so I automatically shift into martial arts mode. It feels good, it's been a long time since I've thrown a punch. But, in the middle of it, I suddenly look around and realize that the other women are just kind of bouncing around tossing their arm out and I look like I'm ready to pull someone's head off their neck, lol. The upside is, they gave me lots of room to move.

Because I've done boxing classes I find the bodycombat class a bit awkward In boxing it's left foot forward and we always start with a jab, but the combat classes are all over the place and I find it off putting to start a boxing move with my right hand

I agree with you about some of the women in the class....they treat it like an aerobics/dance class instead of martial arts and I have a laugh to myself when I see them just waving their arms about instead of getting stuck into it!

 

[WriterDom]

One muscle group a week, or one a day?


Oh, and I pressed the 70# KB fives times each arm. Officially impressed myself, I did.

5 lifting days a week with two rest days. Legs, chest, back, shoulders, and arms. I do abs when I do legs. That might be enough if I get two days of mat work in.

Basically 4 workouts in 4 weeks rather than 6. My legs can handle six but my shoulder isn't happy. I noticed when I just hang and flex on the bar doing shoulder presses that my entire right arm looks really underdeveloped when compared to my left arm. Maybe I need to isolate it more like with the barbell presses.

 

[Homburg]

5 lifting days a week with two rest days. Legs, chest, back, shoulders, and arms. I do abs when I do legs. That might be enough if I get two days of mat work in.

Basically 4 workouts in 4 weeks rather than 6. My legs can handle six but my shoulder isn't happy. I noticed when I just hang and flex on the bar doing shoulder presses that my entire right arm looks really underdeveloped when compared to my left arm. Maybe I need to isolate it more like with the barbell presses.

If you are worried about muscle balance right to left, use dumbbells. A barbell will allow the stronger arm to compensate for the weaker one and not really help as much as going with individual weights.

The tactic I use is to work the weaker arm first til I get about one rep shy of failure, then match that number of reps with the strong arm. The strong arm gets worked, but not to capacity, while the weaker one is worked to capacity. This will provide more impetus for improvement with the weaker arm while still keeping the stronger one moving and working.

It's worked pretty well for me, as my left arm is stronger than my right when it comes to pulls, but the right is stronger on push. Going with the above tactic has worked to balance it out better.

 

[Keroin]

Because I've done boxing classes I find the bodycombat class a bit awkward In boxing it's left foot forward and we always start with a jab, but the combat classes are all over the place and I find it off putting to start a boxing move with my right hand

I agree with you about some of the women in the class....they treat it like an aerobics/dance class instead of martial arts and I have a laugh to myself when I see them just waving their arms about instead of getting stuck into it!

In martial arts, I trained with left and right foot forward when fighting. Of course, left feels natural because I'm right handed but it was good to switch it up. I think what got me in this class was the absurd amount of bouncing and the "jabs" just being flung out hither and thither, lol. But, honestly, I'm just happy to see people out moving and staying fit. And I'm sure I look every bit as geeky doing those football training moves that we do.

The really good thing about the HIIT class is that the intensity level keeps the chatter to a minimum. If I want friendly banter, I'll go play tennis or something. I'm there to push myself and I find it distracting when there's a bunch of "blah, blah, blah" going on around me. Know what I mean?