Imus Fired

[ChristopherMaxwell]

I don't understand your point. I have close friends from there and have read much of South Africa's history and literature. My post had to do with racism in the U.S. if that helps. Don't want to argue, just don't get your response.

Not South Africa, mate. Rhodesia. Many countries might follow their example. I have no problem opposing the anti-black racism, nor the anti-white kind. My point is that the latter is no myth, in the States, Africa, or other parts of the world. Read up on Mugabe's brutal atrocities sometimes. And the sad fact is that no one has indicted him in the Hague, nor made any moves to do so.

 

[hmmnmm]

Humor doesn't have to be racist.

True, but racists/racism can also be parodied/satirized, and if done well can provide far more illumination of the ugliness and ultimate futility of racism/racists than an army of Sharptons/J. Jacksons, etc.

Also, humor shouldn't be racist, doesn't have to be... but sometime it is. And sometimes those who use it (or try) may or may not realize the tidal-like effects it can have, or what they are really saying. In other words, taking into account the degree or the existence of malicious intent.

Now, maybe someday, all people will learn and abide by a wisdom that says, even though such and such racist remark was made in jest with no malicious intent, it really isn't cool, it brings no benefit to society as a whole. And besides, you may lose out on meeting someone who could become a great friend/teacher/mentor.

But that day is far off. Behaviors, prejudices, hatreds, ignorance continues to be passed down. Maybe as time goes on and education continues such passing down may dwindle more and more, to a trickle, and hopefully someday cease completely.

Until then... we have Imuses, Sharptons, these created splits, divides, completely unnecessary.

 

[Liar]

I listen to random American webcasts, cuz I'm tired of the local music at the moment. And there was a news snippet on the radio just now.

Aparently Imus's (sp?) wife has had to go out in the media and ask his fans to stop sending hate mail to the girls on that team.

Wow. Dude's got some classy fans.

 

[ChristopherMaxwell]

Banning them is most unwise.

And something as mild as hate-speech legislation, that's no doubt too little, too late. There may be, at this point, not much we can really do, aside from alert the ones outside the magic bubble to what is going on. Not if we are sensible enough not to want to escalate the madness.

But suppose we are able to call Robertson on it, the next time he calls to an audience of millions to kill someone? Suddenly, to defend itself, the organism will have to leave the magic bubble. Because in a court of law, it really is argument that is used, not magic.

We then can let people continue to pray by the busload on the courthouse steps at the next Schiavo thing, while beginning to place a check on how far these Christo-fascists can go, at least in the arena of advocating murder in the name of the movement.

There are already laws about advocating armed rebellion against the United States, and they even enforce them, occasionally. This sort of legislation needn't be much different.

What's happened in this country—and this has unfortunately been mainstreamed for us by the Christian right— is that we speak about Muslims in a way that I think we could not speak about any other minority or ethnic group in this country. The Muslim world constitutes one-fifth of the world's population, most of whom, by the way, are not Arab. The statements of ignorance and racism that are routinely put out against Muslims are ones that I think are very much fueled by the Christian right, which has demonized Islam, and to our own detriment.

What radical Christian movements do, just as radical Islamists do, is destroy the moderate center of their own societies. The Christian right is working as hard to destroy the moderate center of our society as Islamic radicals are working to destroy the moderate center of their society. Which is the majority, by the way, the vast majority.

What you're left with, which is what happened in the Balkans, are these two apocalyptic extremes, who need each other. Milosevic needed Tudjman, Tudjman needed Milosevic.

One of the most interesting and disturbing things that we saw when we covered the Balkan conflicts when they began is that the first people to be killed were not the radical members of the opposing ethnic group, because they need them. They need them to instill fear within their own ethnic group. It was the members within their own ethnic group who still reached out to the Muslims in the community, who still went over and had coffee with them, who still would visit the imam in the mosque. They were the first to end up with a bullet in the head in the ditch, because they showed people another way to be, another way to speak, and another way to act, a way to hold together a community. Those are the first people to get destroyed, and they get destroyed by their own.

Well, there is always litigation. Lawsuits for slander and libel have merit, and the only defence against them is truth. Which requires proof, not a strong suit of the fanatics.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I listen to random American webcasts, cuz I'm tired of the local music at the moment. And there was a news snippet on the radio just now.

Aparently Imus's (sp?) wife has had to go out in the media and ask his fans to stop sending hate mail to the girls on that team.

Wow. Dude's got some classy fans.

From an article on MSNBC -

"Stringer declined to discuss the hate mail Friday. Rutgers team spokeswoman Stacey Brann said the team had received 'two or three e-mails' but had also received 'over 600 wonderful e-mails.' "

And yes, Deidre. Imus' wife, did ask that the hate mail stop.

 

[Grushenka]

Not South Africa, mate. Rhodesia. Many countries might follow their example. I have no problem opposing the anti-black racism, nor the anti-white kind. My point is that the latter is no myth, in the States, Africa, or other parts of the world. Read up on Mugabe's brutal atrocities sometimes. And the sad fact is that no one has indicted him in the Hague, nor made any moves to do so.

Slapping myself upside my head of scrambled synapses. I get your point, thanks for responding.

 

[cloudy]

We actually have more in common on this issue than it seems. Sorry, if I pissed anyone off.

Apology accepted.

 

[ChristopherMaxwell]

Slapping myself upside my head of scrambled synapses. I get your point, thanks for responding.

You're welcome, mate. It's just very annoying to see people deny that reverse racism exists. One only needs to read rap lyrics to see that it exists. Or listen to Lauryn Hill. Not to mention the bloody quotas at times. All of which is tame, next to Mr. Mugabe.

 

[Grushenka]

You're welcome, mate. It's just very annoying to see people deny that reverse racism exists. One only needs to read rap lyrics to see that it exists. Or listen to Lauryn Hill. Not to mention the bloody quotas at times. All of which is tame, next to Mr. Mugabe.

I did not mean to deny 'reverse racism', only the attitude of many to its equation with its origins. Usually it's merely angry backlash (as witnessed on this thread), but the label gives the self-righteous a bit of weight. (I am NOT talking about Mugabe and his ilk here.)

 

[cantdog]

Well, there is always litigation. Lawsuits for slander and libel have merit, and the only defence against them is truth. Which requires proof, not a strong suit of the fanatics.

Quite so. And in that case, it would not be the government which acted to limit his speech, but a private citizen who was aggrieved by it.

 

[Alexandra1979]

Quite so. And in that case, it would not be the government which acted to limit his speech, but a private citizen who was aggrieved by it.

Not a bad idea. Start with Imus and David Duke....then work toward Pat Robertson and Randall Terry.

 

[elsol]

Nowhere did I ever say Imus was right in what he said. It wasn't. Even Imus said it was wrong.

Imus called them "hos". The blacks refer to themselves as hos. "Nappy-Headed". Damn few of Imus listeners would even know what the word Nappy means. I had to look up Nappy to be sure. It mean "kinky" which happens to be a genetic, black trait. In my mind that's a null comment because most of America didn't even understand it.

Let me see if I understand your null example.

If I'm in a room with you, your mom, and 10 Russians who don't speak english... if I call you and your mom 'c*nts', it's null because the majority of the people in the room didn't even understand it.

I gotta call bullshit on that one.

I bet you and your mom would be FUCKASS offended... and the fact that the 10 other occupants in the room didn't understand would be the thing that was null. I bet the argument that "Well, the Russkies didn't understand so it's null..." would actually come down as being just as offensive as what I called you if not more.

 

[3113]

I think this commentary sums my thoughts pretty well (not entirely, but close enough):

Imus' end could be a hopeful sign

THIS week's implosion of radio personality Don Imus' lucrative career has been richly instructive on several levels. It's not every day that a talk show host with millions of radio listeners and television viewers loses his job, as Imus did this week, when first MSNBC and then CBS killed his popular and very profitable show. First, there's the question of why, after years of similar conduct, Imus' vulgar and racist insult to the Rutgers University women's basketball team should have triggered the level of outrage it did.

Partly, that's a matter of crossing a rather mysterious boundary that snakes invisibly across the media landscape these days. Our current media culture tolerates all sorts of mean-spirited and offensive speech, but every once in a while, the practitioners of invective blunder onto a target that's just too sympathetic and our collective gag reflex is triggered.

Something similar happened to conservative commentator Ann Coulter, when she insulted the 9/11 widows known as the Jersey Girls. People simply said: That's it; we're tired of her and don't want to hear it anymore. Imus apparently crossed that line when he affronted an accomplished and attractive group of young women, who could have been any proud parents' daughters.

Then there's the fact that the one institution in American society that has zero tolerance for racist epithets masquerading as satire is sports. Rush Limbaugh discovered that when he disparaged Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb. There's a simple explanation: Competitive sports is one of this country's pure meritocracies, and the genuinely level playing field that provides has given African Americans a voice there that cannot be ignored because they generate the money on which the whole edifice depends. It's possible to talk away African American sensibilities in law or medicine or, for that matter, journalism, but not in sports because too many of the people who really have clout are black.

That brings us to another of the things that's genuinely troubling about the Imus affair. This guy has been doing this stuff for years — insulting and disparaging not only African Americans but Jews and gays. This week the Anti-Defamation League distributed a statement pointing out that it has been lodging protests about Imus' anti-Semitic remarks for years and nothing has been done. There are examples it cites that, frankly, can't be quoted in this column because they're too purely offensive, including a characterization of Washington Post columnist Howard Kurtz that's straight out of Julius Streicher. (He habitually referred to the late Johnnie L. Cochran Jr. with a similarly racist epithet.)

Why did he get away with it?

IT happened because he made millions for his network and syndicators and covered himself with a very shrewd strategy. He positioned himself as the thinking person's shock jock and, when he wasn't dishing out racism, prejudice or misogyny, invited onto his show a virtual who's who of the national news media and publishing elite. Those people were only too happy to ignore their responsibility to call Imus on his reprehensible behavior because they profited from the promotional opportunities his program granted them. He helped sell books and journalists' careers.

Everybody profited, so long as everybody winked.

This time around — and to their everlasting credit — the National Assn. of Black Journalists and the staff of NBC News simply refused to go along with this long-standing gentlemen's agreement and demanded that Imus be fired. Then, too, as The Times' Matea Gold, John Horn and Martin Miller pointed out Thursday, new media — in the form of Internet video sites — was around to make the precise moment of Imus' affront available for all to see and judge for themselves. There was no need to rely on memory or fragmentary transcripts. It's another and salutary example of the accountability the digital regime is enforcing on other media.

We Americans are an unquenchably optimistic people, and our news media can't report even the most wrenching or distasteful controversy without finding "signs of hope" somewhere in the muck. (At some point, we really ought to consider replacing the eagle as our national symbol with, say, Alfred E. Neuman.) It would be comforting, for example, to think that the revulsion expressed over Imus' bigotry marked, if not a turning point, the beginning of one.

For some time now, our national conversation — as expressed in entertainment and commentary — has become increasingly coarse, vulgar, violent and just plain mean. Earlier this week, a group of bloggers concerned about the use of threats and harassment by a troublesome minority of people who avail themselves of that medium proposed a voluntary code of civility for the Internet. Now, there's the nearly universal revulsion over Imus' abuse of talk radio and, taken together, it's tempting to hope that his fate and the bloggers' initiative represent, if not a turn of the tide, at least its limit.

And yet….

For that to be true, a couple of things would have to happen:

One is something a considerable number of African American commentators and journalists have mentioned over the past few days. Part of what made Imus' remark doubly grating was his appropriation of language routinely used by black musicians and entertainers. (Is there anything even remotely lamer than some shaggy old white guy trying to sound like a Piru Blood?) Whatever value that language may have had as a way to mock white racism, it was exhausted long ago. It's time to stop it, but that will require a greater number of young African American artists to assume responsibility for their expression and a greater number of parents, both black and white, to discipline their children's tastes.

One of the absolute lessons of the Imus debacle is that, if we wait for the guys in suits — whatever their color — to do this for us, we'll all wallow in filth and vulgarity for the rest of our lives. When there's a dollar to be had, these guys would poison their own children without ever losing a minute's sleep — let alone, yours and mine.

The other thing that needs to happen is that more Americans need to admit that we've developed a kind of collective taste for the kind of nasty vulgarity Imus and the rest of his ilk have been spewing for years now. There's a kind of guilty pleasure to be had from listening to or watching this kind of thing, sort of a cheap — but, ultimately — corrosive thrill.

For the Imus scandal to constitute a real turning point in our national conversation, a substantial number of Americans would have to decide to renounce the mean-spirited pleasure of ridiculing or reviling people rather than misconduct.

Is that likely to happen?

In the two days this week before MSNBC bit the bullet and killed its television broadcast of Imus' radio program, its audience doubled. Maybe that was simply an exercise in the same kind of curiosity that makes people slow to gawk at freeway accidents. Maybe….

 

[3113]

Aparently Imus's (sp?) wife has had to go out in the media and ask his fans to stop sending hate mail to the girls on that team.

Wow. Dude's got some classy fans.

And it's all their fault that the guy got fired for insulting them

 

[cantdog]

I think the article missed the boat in one way, 3113. The political winds are shifting. Under Reagan, under Bush II especially, this sort of language and attitude flew, but the line he talks of has moved, now. Just an observation. His gay and Jewish remarks have really been much worse, but the party of tainted meat, the party of mercury in the rivers, the torture party, was in power then.

 

[3113]

I think the article missed the boat in one way, 3113. The political winds are shifting. Under Reagan, under Bush II especially, this sort of language and attitude flew, but the line he talks of has moved, now. Just an observation. His gay and Jewish remarks have really been much worse, but the party of tainted meat, the party of mercury in the rivers, the torture party, was in power then.

True enough.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Imus' days were numbered five years ago. As I said before, I hate this whole thing. The Sharpton/Jackson group raised a far bigger stink about this than it called for and bombarded the news with it covering up the things that are really important. Things like the new War Czar, which is another sign of the Bush Whitehouse and the DOD imploding on itself. Or odd fact that Whitehouse Staffers were illegally using the Republican National Committee internet connections to hide the numberous emails that flew back and forth concerning the Justice Department firings, then deleting them ala Watergate.

It wasn't needed. All it did was further divide and polarize the American citizenry.

And what was the outcome? Nothing. Imus is gone. But he would have been gone anyway since his sponsors were abandoning him. The Rutgers team got the appology Imus said he would give them anyway. Al Sharpton made points with the black community that will only benefit him personally in the end. All in all, nothing.

 

[S-Des]

Imus' days were numbered five years ago. As I said before, I hate this whole thing. The Sharpton/Jackson group raised a far bigger stink about this than it called for and bombarded the news with it covering up the things that are really important. Things like the new War Czar, which is another sign of the Bush Whitehouse and the DOD imploding on itself. Or odd fact that Whitehouse Staffers were illegally using the Republican National Committee internet connections to hide the numberous emails that flew back and forth concerning the Justice Department firings, then deleting them ala Watergate.

It wasn't needed. All it did was further divide and polarize the American citizenry.

And what was the outcome? Nothing. Imus is gone. But he would have been gone anyway since his sponsors were abandoning him. The Rutgers team got the appology Imus said he would give them anyway. Al Sharpton made points with the black community that will only benefit him personally in the end. All in all, nothing.

Actually that's not quite true. Imus' charity has raised 40 million dollars to help causes ranging from SIDS, to other children's charities....that's history. His wife founded an organization to study the links between environmental hazards and cancer. Her tour to promote her book about the results had to be cancelled. So at least Sharpton & Jackson accomplished something.

 

[3113]

Actually that's not quite true. Imus' charity has raised 40 million dollars to help causes ranging from SIDS, to other children's charities....that's history. His wife founded an organization to study the links between environmental hazards and cancer. Her tour to promote her book about the results had to be cancelled. So at least Sharpton & Jackson accomplished something.

I've gotten out my tinest violin to play a weepy and tragic tune for the children's charities and the lost enviornmental/cancer connection. How terribly sad! How awful! What mean and evil people Sharpton and Jackson are! To shut down these things over one, silly little remark Imus made!

The man has been spewing evil shit for years, and getting away with it for years. Now he's reaping what he's sown and you're blaming those who are calling him on it? Please.

And I have to wonder if those kid charities are helping little Jewish and black children. Because it seems a wee bit hypocritical if they are. "Here kids, we'll help you out. Of course, in the mean time, my radio show will instruct listeners that's it's fine to hate, insult and revial you for being black and Jewish or gay!"

It's a very interesting moral point of view. Here's mine: If you *REALLY* and I mean REALLY care about charities and other causes that you're running, care more about them than ANYTHING, don't FUCK THEM UP by saying something offensive and stupid on the radio.

How's that?

 

[mikey2much]

this is this years 'super bowl tit'

You guys are missing what is happening here. they will use this to start censoring rap music for starters and it may very well end up affecting how we can post and read one anothers stories.

We all know that the right wing nuts in the white house and the religious nuts on the airwaves are gaining ground everyday. Think of all the shows that were taken off the air after the thing with Janet's breast.

I have never liked Imus, and I am glad to see him gone but they will use him to take a lot of what we all love away from us if we are not careful.
mike

 

[S-Des]

The man has been spewing evil shit for years, and getting away with it for years. Now he's reaping what he's sown and you're blaming those who are calling him on it? Please.

See, now this is just sad. When did I blame anyone? As Jenny has said, Imus was on his way out. Sharpton manipulating him to come on his radio show had nothing to do with anything except self-promotion. My problem is that this self-promotion has wide-reaching effects. Two of them are the money lost to charities and the book. They have nothing to do with Imus being fired, just with the hate ginned up by Sharpton and Jackson...two people with a history of racist remarks themselves. I doubt most people outside of Illinois realize just how corrupt Jackson is and how he shakes down businesses for personal gain (often accepting stock options) as some sort of apology to the black community (as if making a rich man richer makes up for civil rights violations).

And I have to wonder if those kid charities are helping little Jewish and black children. Because it seems a wee bit hypocritical if they are. "Here kids, we'll help you out. Of course, in the mean time, my radio show will instruct listeners that's it's fine to hate, insult and revial you for being black and Jewish or gay!"

It's a very interesting moral point of view. Here's mine: If you *REALLY* and I mean REALLY care about charities and other causes that you're running, care more about them than ANYTHING, don't FUCK THEM UP by saying something offensive and stupid on the radio.

How's that?

OK, but does that apply to Hip Hop and Rap music, or is it just that white people aren't allowed to say offensive things? If you notice the post right after yours, Mikey is already afraid that misogynistic, violent, hate-filled rap music might get censored (oh where will we get our entertainment then ). I could care less that Imus is gone. I never listened to him, Stern, Mancow, or any of the other shock jocks. But I hate hypocrites. If you're pissed at Imus for a series of offensive comments (and all the damage they've caused to communities that don't actually listen to his program), are you also worried about the music that tells women they're "ho's" and good for nothing except being pimped or bitch-slapped? How about the gratuitous violence and the calls for kids to reject education? This is what is actually listened to by many young people today, not just on CDs, but over the air on radio stations and on MTV and others. Are you calling for the music to be censored as well? For the record executives, promoters, and radio station higher-ups to be fired for the filth they spew into the communities? If so, what's the plan?

 

[Pure]

song lyrics

i haven't given this a lot of thought, but i'm inclined to say that the gov should have no role in limiting them, beyond current law. i'd say it's free speech and free expression.

joe blow making a CD about 'hos', should cause no more reaction from the government than jane doe talking about 'dicks.' ADDED: for these commercially sponsored cases, if women are offended, or black women, they can pressure advertisers. if Sony has made an offensive CD and 1000000 women say they won't buy Sony, you'd get a reaction.

as to which songs are playable over public airwaves by DJs. that's a tricky one. maybe designat 'adult' periods, say after 9pm.

the Janet Jackson thing shows the dangers. i don't want the Xtian right determining the images i see or the words i hear. (did you hear about the Mormon protest because Cheney said 'fuck off.')

on TV, i'm glad the rules are looser for times after 9. i resent TV showing movies and bleeping words.

---
in Canada there are some limits on 'hate speech' and false news,, but i'm not sure the opposite sex should be protected.

======

 

[Kintrub]

mikey2much is right. Follow this trail of Censoring offensive comments and it will lead you to laws against free erotica online.

 

[cantdog]

mikey2much is right. Follow this trail of Censoring offensive comments and it will lead you to laws against free erotica online.

IF there was any censorship involved here, the yes, because they're going after the wrong shit. Sanitizing epithets just makes a bunch of censors feel self-righteous. Coulter's call for killing, Robertson's public advocacy of an assassination, these things should be prosecuted. But calling someone a name is just assholery.

On the other hand, how much attention have you been paying? This is NOT censorship. No government told him to stop or imperiled his liberty.

His employers dumped him for being too big of an asshole. Happens all the time, and it has nothing to do with censorship. You just plain get to say that shit, you have that right. And everyone else is under NO OBLIGATION to pay you a salary for it.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

IF there was any censorship involved here, the yes, because they're going after the wrong shit. Sanitizing epithets just makes a bunch of censors feel self-righteous. Coulter's call for killing, Robertson's public advocacy of an assassination, these things should be prosecuted. But calling someone a name is just assholery.

On the other hand, how much attention have you been paying? This is NOT censorship. No government told him to stop or imperiled his liberty.

His employers dumped him for being too big of an asshole. Happens all the time, and it has nothing to do with censorship. You just plain get to say that shit, you have that right. And everyone else is under NO OBLIGATION to pay you a salary for it.

Yeah, isn't that what Republicans like to say all of the time, anyway, that no one is entitled to cash?