Imus Fired

[cantdog]

i haven't given this a lot of thought, but i'm inclined to say that the gov should have no role in limiting them, beyond current law. i'd say it's free speech and free expression.

joe blow making a CD about 'hos', should cause no more reaction from the government than jane doe talking about 'dicks.' ADDED: for these commercially sponsored cases, if women are offended, or black women, they can pressure advertisers. if Sony has made an offensive CD and 1000000 women say they won't buy Sony, you'd get a reaction.

as to which songs are playable over public airwaves by DJs. that's a tricky one. maybe designat 'adult' periods, say after 9pm.

the Janet Jackson thing shows the dangers. i don't want the Xtian right determining the images i see or the words i hear. (did you hear about the Mormon protest because Cheney said 'fuck off.')

on TV, i'm glad the rules are looser for times after 9. i resent TV showing movies and bleeping words.

---
in Canada there are some limits on 'hate speech' and false news,, but i'm not sure the opposite sex should be protected.

======

The government did nothing about Imus, and they should not. They should also not be doing anything about hip hop artists. If the equivalent happened to the hip hop artists, for instance, it would be their label dropping them or Borders refusing to stock them. No government need apply. We lost enough liberty as it is.

 

[cantdog]

From an article on MSNBC -

"Stringer declined to discuss the hate mail Friday. Rutgers team spokeswoman Stacey Brann said the team had received 'two or three e-mails' but had also received 'over 600 wonderful e-mails.' "

And yes, Deidre. Imus' wife, did ask that the hate mail stop.

Get on TV and act self-righteous, and you'll get mail, too. Live with it, is my advice.

 

[Kintrub]

okay, it's not Government sensoring. It's Capitalism sensoring. It's a one sided argument.

Let the gangstas take over the world. They can call women of every color anything they want because they're 'artists'.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

You're basically arguing that only advocacy of public violence should be banned, right?

Interesting Constitutional argument....and philosophical....I'm no fan of Chavez, but if someone urged the death of, say, the Prince of Wales, I'd have to say that they are really testing the limits of their First Amendment protections.....as a Libertarian, that's as far as I'm willing to go....

 

[cantdog]

True, but racists/racism can also be parodied/satirized, and if done well can provide far more illumination of the ugliness and ultimate futility of racism/racists than an army of Sharptons/J. Jacksons, etc.

Also, humor shouldn't be racist, doesn't have to be... but sometime it is. And sometimes those who use it (or try) may or may not realize the tidal-like effects it can have, or what they are really saying. In other words, taking into account the degree or the existence of malicious intent.

Now, maybe someday, all people will learn and abide by a wisdom that says, even though such and such racist remark was made in jest with no malicious intent, it really isn't cool, it brings no benefit to society as a whole. And besides, you may lose out on meeting someone who could become a great friend/teacher/mentor.

But that day is far off. Behaviors, prejudices, hatreds, ignorance continues to be passed down. Maybe as time goes on and education continues such passing down may dwindle more and more, to a trickle, and hopefully someday cease completely.

Until then... we have Imuses, Sharptons, these created splits, divides, completely unnecessary.

The tools of parody and satire should be used on the powerful. That's what they're for.

Puncturing stuffed shirts and exposing injustices, lies, deceits, and delusions is a high calling. It is not in the same league with scattergun bigoted remarks.

 

[cantdog]

OK, but does that apply to Hip Hop and Rap music, or is it just that white people aren't allowed to say offensive things? If you notice the post right after yours, Mikey is already afraid that misogynistic, violent, hate-filled rap music might get censored (oh where will we get our entertainment then ). I could care less that Imus is gone. I never listened to him, Stern, Mancow, or any of the other shock jocks. But I hate hypocrites. If you're pissed at Imus for a series of offensive comments (and all the damage they've caused to communities that don't actually listen to his program), are you also worried about the music that tells women they're "ho's" and good for nothing except being pimped or bitch-slapped? How about the gratuitous violence and the calls for kids to reject education? This is what is actually listened to by many young people today, not just on CDs, but over the air on radio stations and on MTV and others. Are you calling for the music to be censored as well? For the record executives, promoters, and radio station higher-ups to be fired for the filth they spew into the communities? If so, what's the plan?

If the 'plan' involves any kind of government action, the 'plan' is unconstitutional. If you find hip hop offensive you are at liberty to say so, and if you really think it's very bad, why then organize pickets where it's sold, write letters of outrage to the publishers, get something done. But get it done the way this was done, by making an economic boycott felt and cutting off their publishing and distribution. Do not write a damn law.

 

[cloudy]

okay, it's not Government sensoring. It's Capitalism sensoring. It's a one sided argument.

Let the gangstas take over the world. They can call women of every color anything they want because they're 'artists'.

It's not "censoring" at all (and that's the way it's spelled). It's market economics at work.

I don't like the things they say in hip-hop, either, so guess what? I don't buy their cds. Again, market economics at work. If enough stopped buying them, then eventually the record labels would stop making them.

*shrug*

 

[FatDino]

okay, it's not Government sensoring. It's Capitalism sensoring. It's a one sided argument.

Let the gangstas take over the world. They can call women of every color anything they want because they're 'artists'.

Whatever, dude. Hip hop singers don't mean "ho's" the way Imus did.

 

[FatDino]

It's not "censoring" at all (and that's the way it's spelled). It's market economics at work.

I don't like the things they say in hip-hop, either, so guess what? I don't buy their cds. Again, market economics at work. If enough stopped buying them, then eventually the record labels would stop making them.

*shrug*

Microsoft just announced their new spell check software and it's running on cloudy's brain cells.

 

[cloudy]

Microsoft just announced their new spell check software and it's running on cloudy's brain cells.

I'm a spelling Nazi, I know, but...damn! If someone wants to appear intelligent, you'd think they'd at least learn to fucking spell.

 

[FatDino]

I'm a spelling Nazi, I know, but...damn! If someone wants to appear intelligent, you'd think they'd at least learn to fucking spell.

When I finish my "debut" story, I won't even bother to run spell-check at all, I'll just send it to you.

 

[3113]

My problem is that this self-promotion has wide-reaching effects. Two of them are the money lost to charities and the book.

And my point is that this was bound to happen sooner or later. Anyone who is an insult comic can say the wrong thing at the wrong time. *IF* charites and books are important to you, then you shouldn't be saying things that could open you up to being taken down like this. I'm no fan of Jackson, et. al; I agree that such people are just promoters, and yeah, they don't give a shit about Imus' good works and charities. But this is hardly like shooting Dr. Martain Luther King, jr. to shut him up or bringing up dirt of Mother Teresa to shut her down.

Imus made money with hateful insults, and that means that sooner or later, he was going to be in trouble. Nature of the beast. If you raise charity money by doing dare-devil stunts, and get killed in one of thsoe stunts, well, there goes the money for that charity. But that's how you raised the money, that was the risk. So I'm sorry if I can't blame Jackson, et al, for not thinking of the reprecussions of bringing Imus down. The blame is on Imus for bringing himself down. HE was the one doing the dare-devil stunts.

OK, but does that apply to Hip Hop and Rap music, or is it just that white people aren't allowed to say offensive things?

I can't say, but I rather doubt that either Sarpton or Jackson support Rap music's misogyny. Even if they do, however, two wrongs don't make a right. The wrongness of what rappers do does not make what Imus did right.

If you're pissed at Imus for a series of offensive comments (and all the damage they've caused to communities that don't actually listen to his program), are you also worried about the music that tells women they're "ho's" and good for nothing except being pimped or bitch-slapped? How about the gratuitous violence and the calls for kids to reject education?

Well, I'm pissed. I don't know about Jackson/Sharpton or anyone else.

Are you calling for the music to be censored as well? For the record executives, promoters, and radio station higher-ups to be fired for the filth they spew into the communities? If so, what's the plan?

Nope. I'm not calling for anyone to be censored. That's part of the problem of comparing a company backed shock-jock to a rap record--usually put out by a company owned by rappers! You're a musician. How hard would it be for you to create a song put it on your computer, burn it onto CD's, sell those CD's at a concert? Or just post that song your website and charge people money to download it? How hard would it be for you to create a company that makes CD of all your friend's music...music where you ALL share the same values and say the same things?

See? In the one instance you write the music, you post the music, it's all you and/or you and your friends. In the other instance, it's a COMPANY that supports you, that puts you on the radio or produces your records--and therefore they are tarred with your brush. If you say something foul, and they put it out there, that implies that they support you and your views--or at the very least that they won't censor anyone, which is another point of view and obviously not one that most companies hold.

I'd certainly respect a company that argued that they weren't going to fire Imus, no matter what the reprecussions, because they don't and won't censor. But they have to be willing to accept the consequences of that. PBS put on a show about gays that lost them a $10 million dollar donation from a conservative Catholic. They still showed the show. They accepted the consequences.

That's my perspective on it. If you're a company, accept the responsiblity and consequences of what these people are saying on radio or records...or censor them. And if you're not willing to accept the consequences, don't hire them, let them do it on their own where they ALONE accept the responsiblity (and earn the rewards if any) for what they say and do. You can't have it both ways--and THAT is the kind of hypocrisy I hate, trying ot have it both ways.

 

[3113]

I'm a spelling Nazi, I know, but...damn! If someone wants to appear intelligent, you'd think they'd at least learn to fucking spell.

Hey! Some of us were either dyslexic or learned to read by way of "whole language" which results in bad spelling...or both. I've spent my whole life trying to learn how to spell and I still fuck up. It's embarassing, but we all have our flaws

 

[FatDino]

Hey! Some of us were either dyslexic or learned to read by way of "whole language" which results in bad spelling...or both. I've spent my whole life trying to learn how to spell and I still fuck up. It's embarassing, but we all have our flaws

She only hates the ones who "want to appear intelligent" but too...ahem...to spell correctly. As long as you don't "want to appear intelligent", you'll be fine

 

[Kintrub]

Thanks for pointing out my spelling error (honestly, that looked dumbass on my count). But HERE's my beef:

Whatever, dude. Hip hop singers don't mean "ho's" the way Imus did.

And THERE lies the double standard. The idea that it's appropriate for one man can use a specific word, but not another man. It's considered fair for rappers to use denigrative words - especially black rappers, I'd venture - words that are NOT usable by white comic journalists (or whatever sorry category you wanna put that Imus/Stern gig in).

btw, Al Sharpton can say "Honkey" and Jesse Jackson can say "Hymie", right?

 

[cloudy]

Hey! Some of us were either dyslexic or learned to read by way of "whole language" which results in bad spelling...or both. I've spent my whole life trying to learn how to spell and I still fuck up. It's embarassing, but we all have our flaws

I wasn't talking about you, babe.

 

[FatDino]

And THERE lies the double standard. The idea that it's appropriate for one man can use a specific word, but not another man. It's considered fair for rappers to use denigrative words - especially black rappers, I'd venture - words that are NOT usable by white comic journalists (or whatever sorry category you wanna put that Imus/Stern gig in).

btw, Al Sharpton can say "Honkey" and Jesse Jackson can say "Hymie", right?

Hip hop means ho's as sexually attractive women who are...loose. Imus meant ho's as in valueless female athletes who lost a game terribly. And why do you always like dragging Sharpton and Jackson into this discussion? As many others have pointed out. Two wrongs don't make a right. And Imus can't say whatever he wants just because "others" say it too. When he said it, where he said it and the way he said it made his words unjustifiable.

 

[Liar]

Whatever, dude. Hip hop singers don't mean "ho's" the way Imus did.

In the words of Snoop Dogg

"(Rappers) are not talking about no collegiate basketball girls who have made it to the next level in education and sports," he told MTV.com. "We're talking about hos that's in the 'hood that ain't doing ---- that's trying to get a n---- for his money."

Word of advice, Snoop. If you are trying to explain the difference to us suburban kids who don't get it, please don't do it gangsta style, that you KNOW will be bleeped out. And all those double negatives? Dude.

 

[cantdog]

Thanks for pointing out my spelling error (honestly, that looked dumbass on my count). But HERE's my beef:



And THERE lies the double standard. The idea that it's appropriate for one man can use a specific word, but not another man. It's considered fair for rappers to use denigrative words - especially black rappers, I'd venture - words that are NOT usable by white comic journalists (or whatever sorry category you wanna put that Imus/Stern gig in).

btw, Al Sharpton can say "Honkey" and Jesse Jackson can say "Hymie", right?

Listen man, we been over this twice on this page, and you said the same stuff earlier in the thread. When you said it, you got the definitive answer.

Here's you:

Grushenka wrote ”What fucking white man uses the term nappy-headed without the derogatory connotation; attach it to 'ho' and you've got a fucking racist”

So, the point is, HE’S WHITE. Were Chris Rock or Dave Chapell to say ‘nappy-headed’ or 'ho' it’s acceptable. IN FACT, they can say terms like “Honkey” without a media outcry.

Turn on BET. Count the use of the word ‘Ho’. I bet ‘nappy-headed’ gets in there too. (Certainly Stevie Wonder’s used it).

I just wanted to get THE RULES out on the table. Some people can say shit about race, others aren’t allowed.

Oh! That’s right…black comedians and rappers have a ‘different job description’ than white morning radio yappers.

that's from page 2 of this thread.

Here's the answer you got, also on page two.

Actually, yes... certain people are allowed to say certain things and other people are not.

See it works like this... this country has had institutionalized racism in the past. While we like to pretend we're taking grand leaps forward, we're still racist.

Therefore so that we don't have to look at our problems, we require everyone to play along and pretend.

We can't pretend too good when white people start using racial epithets publicly. When I can't pretend, I want to kill white people... that would be bad for a lot of white people and more importantly for me.

So until I can walk into an interview and the thought "Is my skin color going to matter... maybe this guy doesn't like latinos" does NOT cross my mind... white people can't use the racial stuff like the members of that race.

It's rough I know... but I'll happily trade our racial profiles socially, politically, and economnically for the use of the n-bomb any time you want.

My favorite moment of pretend is when my caucasian friends have to say "Well, you're not like THEM, elsol." or "You're different, ElSol." after they say something particularly stupid and remember that I'm not white.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

 

[mikey2much]

In the long run

I think that corperate america makes most of our dicisions these days. It seems that they decided that we needed to go to war. It seems that they don't think that we need a health plan. It seems that they think that the american worker does not need any protection from cheap third world labor.
It seems that they think that we don't need a living wage for our own lower paid workers.

In reality it seems that the only thing they think we need is a place tailor made for their profits and the hell with everybody else.

The point is, does it seem that way to you as an american.
I guess that I don't trust big business anymore then I trust the govermment that they have installed to rule me.

I don't put profits above everything. Does that make me a bad american?

mikey

 

[hmmnmm]

The tools of parody and satire should be used on the powerful. That's what they're for.

Puncturing stuffed shirts and exposing injustices, lies, deceits, and delusions is a high calling. It is not in the same league with scattergun bigoted remarks.

In a perfect world, parody and satire would be used in the ways you say. I agree. Of course in a perfect world parody and satire would not be necessary.

The mainstream media in general should not use their power to insult the intelligence of decent people they way they do every single second they can.

But they do, and they annoy, offend, insult, and cause consistent battle with an overall hatred towards the world in general. Then I realize it is my choice to see them for what they are, that I can laugh them off, difficult as it is sometimes (like now - wife has the television on, FOX News. If anyone is ripe for lawsuit because of causing emotional trauma).

Saw the movie Network on TCM last night.
Thirty year old movie.
It should be required viewing.
Really, things haven't changed, the evils only become more sophisticated.

Sorry...

Carry on.

I'll be back in the Anything except politics thread.

P.S. A phrase from the great and greatly missed Mike Royko just crossed my mind: "Don't use an axe to peel a grape."
That's not the exact wording but it's close.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

I just wanted to thank everyone on this thread for having a (actually the ONLY) rational and mature dialogue on racist, sexism, freedoms of speech, et. al., via this whole Imus magilla on this site and on the GB.

Up until now, there had been continuous, multiple bullshit Imus-this-Imus-that-related threads of juvenile-minded members just reacting without truly thinking, using that incident to further justify their ego-centric necessity to talk racially and sexist inflammatory shit online without reprisals. After one particularly infamous person started a completely unnecessary (and eventually defeatist) racist tirade starting from the very words he choose to title the thread with, I'd had enough and made a decision to never speak my mind in any thread relating to race on this site again, feeling that there wasn't a sufficent number of heads here mature enough to dialogue with and that I'd just be wasting my time in being serious.

Well, everyone here in this thread proved me wrong. Honestly. Whether I agree with your stances or not, heads in here kept it eye level and showed their real intelligence and character without having to find more excuses to write n-bombs and other unnecessary derogatories to prove their points in the name of psuedo-witty sarcasm or some nebulous "humor." As a person of color, I appreciate this and now my faith in the adult-minded thread potential of this site, sideways from the sexual and erotic topics, has been restored.

I now know better who to check up in here for some real conversations. Y'all can have a beer on me if'n we ever meet and you're of the drinkin' persuasion!

 

[hmmnmm]

I now know better who to check up in here for some real conversations. Y'all can have a beer on me if'n we ever meet and you're of the drinkin' persuasion!

Guinness?
Really, the small town I live in for the moment is so beautiful - but not a can of Guinness to be found. Looked everywhere.

 

[elsol]

okay, it's not Government sensoring. It's Capitalism sensoring. It's a one sided argument.

Let the gangstas take over the world. They can call women of every color anything they want because they're 'artists'.

This is a pointless argument... Capitilism by definition censors.

If Country artists XXX does not sell enough albums, he gets dropped... end of argument. Convince the market to stop buying gangsta rap and the music form will die a very quick death.

We're buying it for a reason; personally, I think it has a lot to with MTV and their decision a long time ago to put YO! MTV rap on at 3pm which is right after kids get out of school.

 

[Kintrub]

I agree with Irezumi. This has been, for the most part, a fairly civil exhange of ideas and differences of opinions. Respectful. I dig it that way, myself.