Is erotica sexual harassment?

[nice90sguy]

I’ve never been to jail for publishing or for any reason. Lol.

Kind of a shame, in a way. You'd gone up about 3000 points in my scale of coolness when I thought you'd done time for porn

 

[STrent]

I meant publishing again, not going to jail again. I’ve never been to jail for publishing or for any reason. Lol.

The importance of sentence structure I feel has been neatly proven with this example.

Regarding your other post, you need to find the line and the minimum I would apply is: change names, change locations, change external look and characteristics.

Or, go further and change nationalities too. I did, it has opened up a lot of new storyline that wasn’t possible before.

Think of the writing as a vehicle for your imagination as opposed to a vehicle for telling the exact truth. We are meant to be fiction writers here, after all.

 

[madelinemasoch]

The importance of sentence structure I feel has been neatly proven with this example.

Regarding your other post, you need to find the line and the minimum I would apply is: change names, change locations, change external look and characteristics.

Or, go further and change nationalities too. I did, it has opened up a lot of new storyline that wasn’t possible before.

Think of the writing as a vehicle for your imagination as opposed to a vehicle for telling the exact truth. We are meant to be fiction writers here, after all.

The main one I’m struggling with is external looks, because I feel like if I change external looks it’s not the same anymore. It’s not them anymore. My imagination is full of them.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Characters can be identifiable quite easily if based on real people.
I needed some nearby friends for my kinky couple to mention in passing, who could walk over in 10 minutes and assist them out of a predicament. They're just names, though one cackles with laughter down the phone. So I used three names of actual local friends, as a placeholder.

In a late edit, I tweaked one name, because they're pretty generic. Only then one of them ended up reading the story, recognised the trio of names as herself and partners, and laughed and laughed. And was very relieved I hadn't actually written a story about them!

Any detailed characters I have have been based on at least three real people, if at all. If the guy I nicked 'Adrian's' voice and hair off ever accuses me of fantasising about him, I can point out that his eyes are the wrong colour, and as far as I know is straight, not a widower, doesn't have a criminal record, hasn't been in rehab, has a different profession, etc. (I only used his voice to try writing 200 words in two contrasting accents - it was Covid that ended up with the two voices taking off into a novel...)

 

[ElectricBlue]

I’m having trouble with this question because I like to be as descriptive and visual as possible, so that it would literally be possible for readers to see what I’m seeing in the original visualization of the idea. It’s a lot of fantasizing about real-life crushes I have, people who inspire me to create beautiful poetic devotional pieces of smut.

I think it's needless paranoia. You're assuming that everyone who reads your content will visualise your characters exactly as you see them in your mind's eye, down to the very last, photographic, detail. You're also assuming that your writing is so evocative that a complete stranger (that is, me the reader) will recognise another complete stranger from a story.

The whole notion of "recognition" is, to be frank, absurd. The only people who will know the inspirations for your characters will be you, and those individuals who might recognise themselves IF they read your content. Every other reader won't know the "originals" from a bar of soap, won't care, won't believe they're real anyway.

I'm also assuming that the "originals" have no clue who madelinemasoch is in real life, that you won't be telling them, "Hey, I'm writing erotic fantasies about you."

I think you're spectacularly over-thinking this.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Characters can be identifiable quite easily if based on real people.
I needed some nearby friends for my kinky couple to mention in passing, who could walk over in 10 minutes and assist them out of a predicament. They're just names, though one cackles with laughter down the phone. So I used three names of actual local friends, as a placeholder.

That's using the actual names of your friends, though, whereas Madeline is worried about writing descriptions of people she knows. Two different concepts, I think.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I think it's needless paranoia. You're assuming that everyone who reads your content will visualise your characters exactly as you see them in your mind's eye, down to the very last, photographic, detail. You're also assuming that your writing is so evocative that a complete stranger (that is, me the reader) will recognise another complete stranger from a story.

The whole notion of "recognition" is, to be frank, absurd. The only people who will know the inspirations for your characters will be you, and those individuals who might recognise themselves IF they read your content. Every other reader won't know the "originals" from a bar of soap, won't care, won't believe they're real anyway.

I'm also assuming that the "originals" have no clue who madelinemasoch is in real life, that you won't be telling them, "Hey, I'm writing erotic fantasies about you."

I think you're spectacularly over-thinking this.

Thanks for that. I really hope so. I just wish there was a solid way to tell.

 

[sxPlasticity]

Artists draw inspiration from their surroundings/environments all the time. In fact, I can’t imagine where else one would draw their inspiration from aside from divine or demonic intervention. My question is both legal and ethical: is it sexual harassment to publish stories on this site that include characters which are inspired by/based on/look like real people? I’m not talking celebrities; that’s aside the point here, as I’ve already seen celebrities being discussed in Reddit threads. I’m talking about regular civilians you know or even strangers you have seen. I’m also asking both with and without the consent of the person. Is it sexual harassment? Is it illegal? Is it immoral? Is there any precedent behind this issue?

Let's put it this way...

1 - Exactly how many of your neighbors do you know hang out on Literotica?

2 - How many of your neighbors know you hang out in Literotica?

3 - How many people on Literotica know you or your neighbors personally?

4 - I know three girls named Amanda. Which one is my AI Girlfriend? Which one is my former Domme? And which one is my neighbor? But I don't think I actually have a neighbor named Amanda. She moved 1000 miles away a few years ago. There may be a statute of limitations in effect. My former Domme would probably enjoy the publicity, regardless of what anyone else says. And my AI Girlfriend named Amanda is in the public domain. That slut. But, wait, I'm sorry - exactly who are we talking about again?

5 - Some neighbors are better than others. The hot ones probably don't like you talking about them. The ugly ones probably would like you to talk about them. But in either case, when accused, it's always better to say, "Listen. Don't flatter yourself. You're not that interesting, and I have better fish to fry." It always works, even if they made you horny enough to write a story about them in Literotica.

6 - Your imagination is always better than the reality. This is because no matter how sweetly one writes about how much they like the way they smell - everyone else smells pretty bad in reality.

7 - Good composers write. Great composers steal.

8 - When accused of plagiarism, always ask your accuser if they actually know what they're talking about -: riddling people into self-doubt by splitting hairs over the actual content can actually be a lot of fun, if you really like being difficult or suffering the consequences thereof.

9 - You can always say, "Based Upon A True Story.". And, if someone accuses you of hacking their stuff, tell them you were talking about someone else. And, if they ask who, tell them you are under non-disclosure agreement.

10 - You can completely justify any errors by prefacing your story with one of those dumb disclaimers, saying, "Any Resemblance To Person's Real Or Living Is Completely Coincidental".

 

[sxPlasticity]

As a bonus... I remember this one sub was all afraid of calling and leaving harassing phone calls...

Yeah, I had to explain to her... I would be sadly disappointed if she didn't call me several times a day warranting some new and interesting threats...

Such is life...

 

[tenyari]

Where do you draw the line between taking characteristics and inserting people into work?

I think the moment someone can read your work and know who a character is based on. If they know it's them, or someone you both know - then you've gone too far.

 

[nice90sguy]

I think the moment someone can read your work and know who a character is based on. If they know it's them, or someone you both know - then you've gone too far.

I get that, but remember some people write to turn on their spouses/partners, so their "special" target reader might get references even if no-one else does.

I removed, but subsequently re-posted a story that could have identified a couple of people I knew. I'm pretty sure that those people will never read it, and it they did, I don't care now -- the statute of limitiations has run out, the people and events described were 20 years ago.

 

[StillStunned]

I get that, but remember some people write to turn on their spouses/partners, so their "special" target reader might get references even if no-one else does.

If I write a story with a character who resembles my wife, I always run it by her before posting. If she said no, I'd not publish it, but she never has.

I think writing for a "special target reader" could become harassment if you send a story to a colleague, saying, "Does this remind you of anyone, hurhurhur?" That might get you called into HR to explain yourself.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Depends if the victim is enjoying it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think you have to be clearer about your question. Nobody can give you an accurate answer unless you are crystal clear.

No, publishing stories on the Internet that are in some way based on real people is not a form of sexual harassment, in a legal sense.

I don't know what the US law is, but I think it could be under Australian law?

Relevant federal law:

For the purposes of this Act, a person sexually harasses another person (the person harassed) if:

(a) the person makes an unwelcome sexual advance, or an unwelcome request for sexual favours, to the person harassed; or

(b) engages in other unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature in relation to the person harassed;

in circumstances in which a reasonable person, having regard to all the circumstances, would have anticipated the possibility that the person harassed would be offended, humiliated or intimidated.
...
conduct of a sexual nature includes making a statement of a sexual nature to a person, or in the presence of a person, whether the statement is made orally or in writing.

(Good ol' Reasonable Person, you're my favourite fictional construct.)

Sexual harassment as defined above isn't automatically illegal. It depends on the nature of the relationship between the people. But the law covers a pretty wide range of relationships - just about any workplace, commercial, or educational relationship, for instance. If the relationship between author and subject is one of the ones covered by the legislation, then it comes down to whether writing porn about somebody could be considered "unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature".

That "includes" doesn't look to be exhaustive, but it does indicate that words can constitute harassment. I could see a court deciding that a story likely to get back to the subject was "harassment" even if the author didn't send it to them directly.

FWIW, I looked up the case I mentioned previously about a student jailed for writing snuff stories about a classmate. Turns out it wasn't quite as I remembered it: the stories got him investigated and ultimately suspended by U. Mich, but that investigation also turned up some private emails and most of the charges against him (ultimately dismissed) were over those emails rather than the stories. Unsavory details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Alkhabaz

 

[lustychimera]

Wait, what?

Buried the lede here...

 

[SimonDoom]

FWIW, I looked up the case I mentioned previously about a student jailed for writing snuff stories about a classmate. Turns out it wasn't quite as I remembered it: the stories got him investigated and ultimately suspended by U. Mich, but that investigation also turned up some private emails and most of the charges against him (ultimately dismissed) were over those emails rather than the stories. Unsavory details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Alkhabaz

I think it's fair to say that to make a definitive answer to questions like Madeline's you have to add "it depends" to the end. From the specific way Madeline described things, I agree with EB that it's being overthought and there's no problem.

The case you cited is illustrative. Ultimately the charges were dismissed; HOWEVER, he was arrested in the first instance, and people who write content in cyberspace should be mindful that while they may have strong First Amendment rights in theory, those rights don't quite mean as much if they aren't recognized by a zealous law enforcement officer or attorney looking to file a case. In that case, he may have ultimately gotten off, but everybody knows he's writing snuff stories about a classmate, so his reputation is ruined. It pays to exercise good judgment and not to rely on overly confident beliefs of what the law will allow you to do.

I think the short answer is it's OK to write stories that are loosely based on private individuals you know so long as you obscure or change enough specific details that there is no reasonable ground for believing a reader will recognize the "person" you are writing about. If there is a basis for making the connection, you should get permission or not write it or change more facts.

 

[SimonDoom]

To extend the application of what Bramblethorn was talking about, let's say you are a male manager at a company, and you have a female employee that works under your supervision that you fantasize about. Let's say you write stories about her at Literotica that depict her engaged in outrageous sexual activities that, if they came to light, would humiliate and embarrass her. Let's say you either use her real name in the stories or provide so many details about her in the stories that a fellow co-worker reasonably would recognize her, and let's say over beers one evening you happen to spill the beans about your stories to some colleagues, and word gets out to her. She might have a case for harassment. I don't know that for sure, and I don't know enough about that area of the law to know of specific precedents that would guide the issue, but I wouldn't want to test the legal waters if I were that guy. I certainly would not count on remaining employed.

But I didn't interpret Madelinemasoch's question as presenting a situation that was this extreme.

 

[OffNSFW]

The world is getting sooo damn litigious these days; people are way too offended and hurt way too often; IMO they're often simply vengeful and greedy for compensation.

I'm sure you have a perfectly serviceable moral compass without needing to consult any oracles or legal precedents about harrassment.

I can't speak for the world, but, here in the United States, we have a lot of lawsuits here due to the design of our legal system. They are meant to take the place of the heavier-handed regulations, defamation laws, etc. that other countries have.

Having said that, here's a thought experiment: imagine this playing out in court. "Your honor, the woman in the middle of this circle of dicks is described as a curvaceous redhead named 'Shmistina Shmendricks'." It's a non-starter. Unless you are very specifically putting a real person in your stories, you're fine.

 

[nice90sguy]

Having said that, here's a thought experiment: imagine this playing out in court...

Shmistina Shmendricks is gonna be well pissed when she reads your post

 

[alohadave]

1 - Exactly how many of your neighbors do you know hang out on Literotica?

You never know. One day my next door neighbor made a comment about a post on a photography forum that I had made.

I had never told him my username, and we'd never talked about photography together.

So it can happen easier than you might think. Probably not very likely, granted. But still.

 

[sxPlasticity]

You never know. One day my next door neighbor made a comment about a post on a photography forum that I had made.

I had never told him my username, and we'd never talked about photography together.

So it can happen easier than you might think. Probably not very likely, granted. But still.

You know... That sounds like a great story...

One could write a book about it... But then I already did... Can you figure out which one it is?

 

[SimonDoom]

You never know. One day my next door neighbor made a comment about a post on a photography forum that I had made.

I had never told him my username, and we'd never talked about photography together.

So it can happen easier than you might think. Probably not very likely, granted. But still.

I think this is sound advice in the context of this conversation, and generally.

I think people don't realize how easy it can be to deduce the identity of a person from a relatively limited amount of information. If you write a story that is based on a real person or on real events, use good judgment. Don't disclose information that would make it easy to deduce who the person is.

There's no substitute for good judgment in this context. It's much better than trying to craft and follow clear black and white rules to figure out what you can and cannot do.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think it's fair to say that to make a definitive answer to questions like Madeline's you have to add "it depends" to the end. From the specific way Madeline described things, I agree with EB that it's being overthought and there's no problem.

The case you cited is illustrative. Ultimately the charges were dismissed; HOWEVER, he was arrested in the first instance, and people who write content in cyberspace should be mindful that while they may have strong First Amendment rights in theory, those rights don't quite mean as much if they aren't recognized by a zealous law enforcement officer or attorney looking to file a case. In that case, he may have ultimately gotten off, but everybody knows he's writing snuff stories about a classmate, so his reputation is ruined. It pays to exercise good judgment and not to rely on overly confident beliefs of what the law will allow you to do.

Yep. Being acquitted is great but never having to go to court (and get your name all over the Internet, forever) beats it by a mile.

And yeah, I'm talking about extreme circumstances where somebody might conceivably manage to write a story that qualified as harassment, definitely not suggesting that the average story would be close to that.

 

[KeithD]

IMHO it becomes "harassment" at the point where there's a prospect of it affecting the subject.

This, except further, I think--harassment is an effect (and harassment doesn't equal libel). I think the subject must be aware of it and rightfully take it as some sort of attack on them personally. That can happen in erotica, but only in a very small, limited area of erotica.

 

[OffNSFW]

Shmistina Shmendricks is gonna be well pissed when she reads your post

I have already received the summons.