Let's talk about fascism

[BotanyBoy]

You added it immidiately after, as if it was a qualifier. You don't understand the definition then... fair?

I didn't say capitalst... I said right wing. Please don't misquote me.

The two are synonymous with each other.

He is an anarchist?

A right wing capitalist.

The issue is that you're confused... You equate left with government, when the truth is, reality is a lot more complicated than you understand.

No it's not.

Left = government control over the means, socialism.

Right = freedom, capitalism.

There are plenty on the left (myself being one of them) who are not statists, and who do not believe in big government, nor have ever believed in big government.

How are you a leftist without advocating state control?

You don't believe in social services and wealth redistribution?

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Nowhere will you find these definitions lining up with what you think they do.

In every dictionary and encyclopedia...you need to go read and think critically about what you're reading.

 

[trysail]

Left =government control over the means.

A= anarchy...no government.

R = free market Capitalism, no government control over the means.

Explain that shit and I'll come to your side of things.

Bingo.

Spot on.



Despite all his sophistry and notwithstanding his intellectual wriggling and contortions, he is unable to deny or refute the simple, basic truth you defined above.



​

 

[richard_daily]

No it's not.

Left = government control over the means, socialism.

Right = freedom, capitalism.

Wrong.

I can only lead a horse to water, I can't make him drink.

Paul is anti-gay... a bigot. That's not "more freedom". That's social control.

You imply he's the only true right winger in congress... but he's not for freedom, by your own definition.

 

[richard_daily]

Bingo.

Spot on.



Despite all his sophistry and notwithstanding his intellectual wriggling and contortions, he is unable to deny or refute the simple, basic truth you defined above.



​

And here's the king of mis-using terms...

 

[BotanyBoy]

It's not...

How is no government control over how I make money, the means of production, distribution and exchange..... anything but free market capitalism??

Definition of free market
: an economy operating by free competition

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free market



Free market, an unregulated system of economic exchange.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-market

Definition of capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market


Sounds a lot more compatible with anarchy than socialism does.

Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Definition of communism
1
a : a theory advocating elimination of private property
b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2
capitalized
a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R.
b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production
c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably

Read the entire article.

I did.

You see the word "libertarian" and you think it means something it doesn't, just like when you read "national socialist" you think it means something it doesn't.

Really!!??

Why don't you tell me what I think those things mean?? This ought to be good...

 

[richard_daily]

How are you a leftist without advocating state control?

You don't believe in social services and wealth redistribution?

I believe in equity and equality. Those are Leftist concepts. The Right believes in social control.

I don't believe in big government. I believe in individual social control over your day-to-day at a local level: egalitarianism.

These are all terms you probably won't get, and I'll be honest, even if I explained them to you, I think you'd misrepresent them, based on how you've already done so in this very thread numerous times.

 

[richard_daily]

Sounds a lot more compatible with anarchy than socialism does.

Socialism and anarchy are closely intertwined. If you read up on your history, you'll see that very clearly.

If you choose not to, there's nothing I can do for you, and you'll remain ignorant on these topics.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Wrong.

Then reconcile the definition of socialism and communism being left.

Unless you are saying those things are right wing?

You imply he's the only true right winger in congress... but he's not for freedom, by your own definition.

I imply that he is one of the only (R)'s who pushes for ANY economic freedom and is arguably one of the most ardent capitalist, anti-socialist pol's in DC.

One of the few who is not pushing for more government controls over the means.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Socialism and anarchy are closely intertwined. If you read up on your history, you'll see that very clearly.

If you choose not to, there's nothing I can do for you, and you'll remain ignorant on these topics.

I don't have to go any further than Websters to understand that the two are totally antithetical to each other.

They are incompatible at a fundamental level......government control.

Definition of anarchy
1
a : absence of government

Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

 

[richard_daily]

I imply that he is one of the only (R)'s who pushes for ANY economic freedom and is arguably one of the most ardent capitalist, anti-socialist pol's in DC.

One of the few who is not pushing for more government controls over the means.

You do realize that big A Anarchism isn't about economic freedom, right?

That's Laissez-faire capitalism that Paul advocates for, not anarchy.

 

[richard_daily]

I don't have to go any further than Websters...

Then that's as far as your quest for knowledge will take you.

There's nothing more I can do for you, grasshopper.

 

[trysail]

Don't be deceived.


This is a guy who, given half a chance, lusts to tell you what color underwear is allowed.


​

 

[richard_daily]

Don't be deceived.


This is a guy who, given half a chance, lusts to tell you what color underwear is allowed.


​

Ah, a true believer in "The Truth"...

No matter how many truths need to be burred to get there...

 

[BotanyBoy]

You do realize that big A Anarchism isn't about economic freedom, right?

Yep. But it does facilitate it WONDERFULLY and almost grantees it as it is one of the few political circumstances that allows a truly free market to exist.

So very very capitalist.....and clearly left wing right? LOL Tell us more how Soviet Russia was right wing!!LMAO.

That's Laissez-faire capitalism that Paul advocates for, not anarchy.

I understand, but that doesn't mean anarchy (no government) isn't HIGHLY CONDUCIVE to free market capitalism.

Then that's as far as your quest for knowledge will take you.

There's nothing more I can do for you, grasshopper.

No, that's as far as I need to go to refute your assertion that Anarchy and Leftism (in all it's forms) are somehow compatible.

You can't have Anarchy, no government and total government control over everything at the same time.

You can however have Anarchy and free market capitalism, freedom of association, freedom to do whatever the fuck one wants.

Leftist revile the idea of all that freedom...they want it ALL regulated.

 

[richard_daily]

Yep. But it does facilitate it WONDERFULLY and almost grantees it.



I understand, but that doesn't mean anarchy (no government) isn't HIGHLY CONDUCIVE to free market capitalism.

Wrong, capitalism like rand paul promotes leads to government regulation... croney capitalism... the stuff you hate. Because the money has the power. The money protects the power, and the money owns government.

We have what paul is promoting. That's our current system, just without a gold standard.

No, that's as far as I need to go to refute your assertion that Anarchy and Leftism (in all it's forms) are somehow compatible.

You can't have Anarchy, no government and total government control over everything at the same time.

You can however have Anarchy and free market capitalism, freedom of association, freedom to do whatever the fuck one wants.

Leftist revile the idea of all that freedom...they want it ALL regulated.

Leftism and Anarchism are comparable, because ALL examples of anarchism happening in real life have been left-leaning. I challenge you to find one right wing anarchist uprising... Please... take your time.

I enjoy that you're willing to wipe out 150 years of labor history with a few keyboard strokes, but that doesn't mean that your assertions are realistic or historically accurate.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Wrong, capitalism like rand paul promotes leads to government regulation... croney capitalism... the stuff you hate. Because the money has the power. The money protects the power, and the money owns government.

You can think whatever you want but money owning the government is not free market capitalism. It's not capitalism by any definition of the word.


Crony capitalism is just another form of socialism (because it's government control over the means) and anarchy =absolutely free market bubba....the ultimate environment for capitalism, very left wing

We have what paul is promoting. That's our current system, just without a gold standard.

Then you either aren't listening to Paul or you have no fucking clue what is going on in the USA right now.

You can't just go open a business here anymore, especially if it's lucrative. Try making money for yourself sometime and see what happens. And guess who will be blowing your door off at 2am, beating your ass and dragging you off to prison?

Not a capitalist....I guarantee you it will be the government.

Leftism and Anarchism are comparable,

HOW??

How do you reconcile no government with government control over everything (leftism)??

 

[richard_daily]

HOW??

How do you reconcile no government with government control over everything (leftism)??

HOW?!?

Because that's the way that anarchism has always existed in the real world...

I've given you a half dozen examples of anarchism, and you can add Antifa to the list as well... but you are going to keep insisting that anarchism is right wing, even though you can't give me a single real world example that backs up your claim.

 

[richard_daily]

HOW?!?

Because that's the way that anarchism has always existed in the real world...

I've given you a half dozen examples of anarchism, and you can add Antifa to the list as well... but you are going to keep insisting that anarchism is right wing, even though you can't give me a single real world example that backs up your claim.

In other words: your definition of what left and right are, aren't the correct definitions. That's what I've been trying to tell you for a few days now, but you're sticking your hands over your ears and going "lalalalalalalala".

 

[BotanyBoy]

HOW?!?

Because that's the way that anarchism has always existed in the real world...

No it hasn't...anyone advocating government control over the means is by DEFINITION, not an anarchist but a socialist.

Unless you can show me somewhere that defines anarchy as pro government control, or that leftism = minimalist government/no government control....sorry but they are totally at odds with each other and anarchist are far more aligned with the right wing capitalist who want minimal government and NO control over the means than the communist over on the left who want total state control and ownership.

In other words: your definition of what left and right are, aren't the correct definitions.

I'm using the standard definitions you provided and we both agreed on.

The only thing I rejected was the ultra LW biased bullshit definition of what the right wing is. Wiki did a much better job at being rational and objective about it than the garbage you posted.

That's what I've been trying to tell you for a few days now, but you're sticking your hands over your ears and going "lalalalalalalala".

No you've been trying to tell me that leftism (pro government control) is compatible with Anarchy (fuck all government control) and totally failing to reconcile that fundamental ideological difference between the two. The closest you've come is pointing to a bunch of idiot socialist who want big government to come bully for them and think they are anarchist because they throw a hissy fit in the face of the law trying to get it.

Being a criminal, breaking the law to push whatever shit you want doesn't make you an anarchist......having the ideology that there should be no government does.

 

[richard_daily]

No it hasn't...anyone advocating government control over the means is by DEFINITION, not an anarchist but a socialist.

Unless you can show me somewhere that defines anarchy as pro government control, or that leftism = minimalist government/no government control....sorry but they are totally at odds with each other and anarchist are far more aligned with the right wing capitalist who want minimal government and NO control over the means than the communist over on the left who want total state control and ownership.

You are misunderstanding. I am saying that your understanding of what anarchy and leftism are is flawed, and not correct.

That is the only conflict here.

Look up the FAI, the CNT, John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry, the Antifa, anarcho-sydicalism (the mixing of anarchy and socialism), the West Virginia Coal Wars. These are all examples of Left wing anarchism...

Show me one instance of your alleged "right wing" anarchism.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You are misunderstanding. I am saying that your understanding of what anarchy and leftism are is flawed, and not correct.

That is the only conflict here.

Then correct me and tell me what exactly it is about the definitions you and I agreed upon (websters etc.) I'm not getting.

Show me where socialism

Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

And your definition of left which always uses socialism to achieve it's goals....

"In left-right politics, left-wing describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality. It typically involves a concern for those in society who are perceived as disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished. In left-right politics, left-wing describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality."

Is compatible with the definition of anarchy.

Definition of anarchy
1
a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority the city's descent into anarchy
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2
a : absence or denial of any authority or established order anarchy prevailed in the

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy


Logically reconcile left wing (government control) with anarchy (no government) and I'll buy it. But I don't see how you're going to.

Look up the FAI, the CNT, John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry, the Antifa, anarcho-sydicalism (the mixing of anarchy and socialism), the West Virginia Coal Wars. These are all examples of Left wing anarchism...

Again.

Just because you throw a fit in the face of the law to get the political control you want, doesn't make you and anarchist.

The ideology that there should be NO GOVERNMENT does.

Which is directly in opposition to socialism which advocates government control over the means to produce a more equitable society.

Show me one instance of your alleged "right wing" anarchism.

As I already said there aren't really many anarchist at all. Most everyone wants the government to bully for them.

The closest you'll find is most of your organized criminals, biker gangs and cartels who just do whatever they want and fuck the government. Pick one.

 

[cowslinger64]

Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

NEVER have I made that claim.

I've repeatedly denied it....that is your REPEATED ASCRIPTION. You can stop that shit already, any time.

I claim that any type or number of political theories/parties/philosophies advocating government control over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services is socialism.

You insist on leaving all that other important shit out whenever it's convenient for you.

Again...and again...and again.
.

You claim that government control is socialism. This IS government control.

Somehow it's not socialism... your definitions are fucked royally, and you apply them selectively.

Then go get a quote.

I'm willing to bet you can't do it.

Then correct me and tell me what exactly it is about the definitions you and I agreed upon (websters etc.) I'm not getting.


Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Sorry, there was so much in your replies I tried to cut out most of the chaff.

Splane it to me slowly then.

 

[richard_daily]

http://personality-testing.info/tests/RWAS/

 

[richard_daily]

The remnants of a fascist right wing Spain against an anarchist left wing Spain are playing out now.

 

[BotanyBoy]

And by "anarchist" I'm guessing you mean totally government god state worshiping socialist.