'murcans, your justice system?

[dolf]

I'll say this it took 17 years on Death Row before Harris was executed. His lawyer never had to take another client during that time and the taxpayers are not allowed under California law to know what the State paid in legal fees for him or those on death row.

So, if anything, they have an incentive to get their clients convicted?

 

[dolf]

Last time I checked (granted, it's been a while), what we call ineffective assistance of counsel could be grounds for a new trail on appeal. Doubly so in a death penalty case.

If the ineffectual defence continues to represent them, do they have someone neutral to tell them whether their defence attorneys were incompetent? Unless they're literally sleeping on the job, would the lay person know they'd cocked things up?

Can/should the judge call for a retrial if they think the defence is a buffoon?

 

[CandiCame]

If the ineffectual defence continues to represent them, do they have someone neutral to tell them whether their defence attorneys were incompetent? Unless they're literally sleeping on the job, would the lay person know they'd cocked things up?

Can/should the judge call for a retrial if they think the defence is a buffoon?

I'm on mobile so I have a hard time with links but it is almost impossible to get an issuficient representation appeal. People have tried it before with lawyers who slept through cases, and one guy who's lawyer didn't show up because he was busy drunkenly running people over with his car after having been surfaced the whole trial. I actually had to look this up recently, hold on a sec.

Edit: https://www.themarshall************/2014/12/10/what-can-you-do-with-a-drunken-lawyer

 

[Que]

If the ineffectual defence continues to represent them, do they have someone neutral to tell them whether their defence attorneys were incompetent? Unless they're literally sleeping on the job, would the lay person know they'd cocked things up?

Can/should the judge call for a retrial if they think the defence is a buffoon?

Yes.

Generally though the judge goes ahead and allows the buffoon to continue because there's a minor possibility that the buffoon might get the person off. If they do not succeed the person with ineffectual counsel will get another bite of the apple. Are death penalty cases is specially are looked at with great scrutiny especially with regard to the effectiveness of counsel. They are often litigated and relitigated. Often very good attorneys take appeals pro-bono, either because they have strong personal objections to the death penalty, they like having the feather in their cap of notoriety of making a difference on death penalty cases, or it just helps their General lawyer cred.

If anything we've got probably too much redundancy built into death penalty cases but probably that's a reasonable thing. A death penalty is not something you want to get wrong.

There are however historically and I'm sure in the presents locales that are notorious for having pretty piss-poor defense of impoverished defendants.

 

[Que]

So, if anything, they have an incentive to get their clients convicted?

That's an interesting take. I'll have to think that over.

 

[CandiCame]

If the ineffectual defence continues to represent them, do they have someone neutral to tell them whether their defence attorneys were incompetent? Unless they're literally sleeping on the job, would the lay person know they'd cocked things up?

Can/should the judge call for a retrial if they think the defence is a buffoon?

Yeah it's a whole big clusterfuck and the accused has to pay for it. It's awful and skewed in the lawyer's favor. You have to prove that them fucking up was literally the ONLY reason you lost, so if the prosecution had any evidence at all the appeal is expensive and pointless. It's in that link up there.

 

[colddiesel]

When I was about 10-12 years old (1950 or therabouts) an uncle took me to a murder trial in Glasgow Scotland. The accused pled guilty to killing his neighbour, who was pregnant by him. He was sentenced to death, the whole proceedings taking about 15 minutes. I don't remember his counsel saying anything.

About 16 days later he was hanged, it might have been quicker had not a holiday weekend intervened. No appeal, no delays, done and dusted within 3 weeks.

One can argue whether the law is appropriate but there is no doubt that it was administered properly and efficiently. The constant delays and procrastination of the modern legal process is apalling, I think more apalling than the speed and efficiency I witnessed. At least the survivors could get on with their lives.

 

[oralaccents]

This crowd doesn't tip big enough for a mini. They barely tip enough for a burka.

How much are you charging for full nudity now?
Still firm on no cim?

 

[bellisarius]

Not getting into the death penalty debate here,
Obviously you're pro and I'm anti,
But what about the issues with defence attorneys? The very basis of a fair and righteous justice system is the right to an effective defence. Without that, you can't possibly have a fair trial. Without a fair trial, you might fry the wrong man and have a kiddy killer still roaming free to kill again.

And it seems unlikely that no white guys commit crimes on a par with those landing people on death row. It might be a weird, statistical fluke... Might... But, if the people vote for the death penalty, how do you make sure you fry all the fuckers that cross the line of fryworthy sins, even handedly?

It's not, although the article is trying to paint that picture along with the lack of competent defense.

A general statement here. The black and Latino population commit felonies far out of their proportion of the population. This has been true for decades and seems to be getting worse. That being the case, and given the demographics of LA county, the racial mix isn't of particular interest or alarm.

The lack of adequate representation is a problem but it is unknown if that is a national problem or unique to LA county? Attorneys that sign up as Public Defender's are not generally graduates from the upper tier of their class. In other words they aren't the best examples of Juris Doctor's. Perhaps other States have a better system in place than CA.

According to the article approx. 25% of those practicing as Public Defender's are borderline criminals themselves. I suspect that that translates into maybe 2 - 3% of the practicing lawyers, if even that high a percentage.

I'll talk to my buddy and see if he can shed some light on the PD issue. He's been in practice for going on 40 years now, specializes in Biz. and Real Estate. But the attorney class have a general handle on what's going on within their ranks.

 

[JohnnySavage]

If the ineffectual defence continues to represent them, do they have someone neutral to tell them whether their defence attorneys were incompetent? Unless they're literally sleeping on the job, would the lay person know they'd cocked things up?

Can/should the judge call for a retrial if they think the defence is a buffoon?

You're asking general questions about specific instances. Each state has it's own systems - one system for criminal violations, one for administrative matters and one system for civil disputes. The Federal government also has it's own parallel systems.

Your facts are based on the California State criminal system but only applicable in a general sense to the other 49 states' systems and the Federal system. Additionally, most lawyers (generally) practice in one or two specific systems. For example, a California criminal defense attorney would not generally handle an IRS tax matter.

In most criminal systems, if the defendant is eligible for a government provided attorney; he's not getting the cream of the crop. The government spends far more to prosecute then it does to defend.

 

[trysail]

My insomnia stumbled across this piece.

The angle of the piece is pretty obvious, but I'm assuming that the stats and facts are accurate. What are your thoughts on it?

The Grauniad ??

You are kidding, aren't you ??

The Grauniad is, of course, the very definition of a biased source. I don't believe a word out of it without numerous corroborating sources— and even then, I'm skeptical.


​

 

[SpeareChucker]

My insomnia stumbled across this piece.

The angle of the piece is pretty obvious, but I'm assuming that the stats and facts are accurate. What are your thoughts on it?

Los Angeles has sentenced more people to death than any other county in the US, and only people of color have received the death penalty under the region’s current prosecutor, a new report shows.

There is no link to this imaginary report but if you go down a ways then they have mug shots of the people on death row and to my surprise there are several white people represented which makes this "fake" and sensitized news; just another cheap shot at the United States by smug and pretentious Europeans who never, ever, cease looking down their noses at us and spend too much times looking down for validation of their superiority.

 

[trysail]

The Grauniad is completely bent.

Anybody and everybody with a grain of common sense knows that.


​

 

[SpeareChucker]

Do they also regularly report on confirmed UFO contacts?

 

[oralaccents]

New Report is britspeak for Breaking News.

Squirrel farts in Exeter, Green Party Report shows dangerous methane spike.

Dolf Doesn’t Swallow, Put Him On Ignore

 

[BotanyBoy]

Not getting into the death penalty debate here,
Obviously you're pro and I'm anti,
But what about the issues with defence attorneys? The very basis of a fair and righteous justice system is the right to an effective defence. Without that, you can't possibly have a fair trial. Without a fair trial, you might fry the wrong man and have a kiddy killer still roaming free to kill again.

And it seems unlikely that no white guys commit crimes on a par with those landing people on death row. It might be a weird, statistical fluke... Might... But, if the people vote for the death penalty, how do you make sure you fry all the fuckers that cross the line of fryworthy sins, even handedly?

That's racist ass California.

They virtue signal and talk out of their ass a lot there.

They have the most wealth inequality and homelessness in the country, their criminal justice system is about as "progressive". As a person of color I'd rather stand trial in Texas.

That link tells me that most murderers should have already been behind bars for their criminal haircuts.

How do you ensure a good quality defence for those who can't afford to pay? Is there a bonus for winning, or do they get paid the same if they sleep through the trial?

You can't....public defense is public.

 

[dolf]

Though the prisons are full of dangerous white guys and there are plenty of them on Death Row they do not commit the vast majority of violent crime in California or the country writ large. That would be black and latino males between the ages of 15 and 27.

In California a death penalty case can be a huge income stream for a defense attorney. Out of the last 13 people executed in California 10 have been white men. so tell that lying bitch in L.A. to STFU.

http://graphics.latimes.com/towergraphic-see-13-men-executed-california-1978/

I'm pondering those stats... Is it that more BaEM people commit crimes, or that more get convicted of crimes? The two may or may not be the same thing...

 

[dolf]

That's racist ass California.

They virtue signal and talk out of their ass a lot there.

They have the most wealth inequality and homelessness in the country, their criminal justice system is about as "progressive". As a person of color I'd rather stand trial in Texas.

You can't....public defense is public.

That's all rather bleak.
There's no viable solution at all, in your opinion?

 

[BotanyBoy]

That's all rather bleak.
There's no viable solution at all, in your opinion?

Solution for what exactly?

Public defenders??

That's a hard one....how do you do better??

You could incentivize them but how do you define a win?

Sometimes avoiding the death penalty is a win, sometimes it's not.

Sometimes a good plea deal is the best option on the table....like when they find your DNA inside 8 dead girls, there is no acquittal to be had there and a jury is going to fry you for it.

There are ways to improve, but IDK what they are.

No our system isn't perfect, but it's one of the better ones out there, even in racist ass shit holes like Los Angeles.

 

[colddiesel]

Just as a comparason the rate of incarceration of black Australians is almost identical to that of black Americans in fact marginally worse. Aborigines are slightly less than 3% of the population but 28% of the male prison population, 34% of the female prisoners and 48% of youth detainees.

They are also by far the poorest element of the population with 35% adult male unemployment and there is some evidence that poverty is more indicative of incarceration than race.

 

[Rightguide]

There is no link to this imaginary report but if you go down a ways then they have mug shots of the people on death row and to my surprise there are several white people represented which makes this "fake" and sensitized news; just another cheap shot at the United States by smug and pretentious Europeans who never, ever, cease looking down their noses at us and spend too much times looking down for validation of their superiority.

The last 10 out of 13 who have been executed in California were white males.

 

[Rightguide]

I'm pondering those stats... Is it that more BaEM people commit crimes, or that more get convicted of crimes? The two may or may not be the same thing...

The FBI Uniform Crime Report consistently shows those two demographics I mentioned as those committing the majority of violent crimes in America. So you have about 14% (males) of the population committing 70% of those crimes.

 

[HisArpy]

1. It's Americans. There's no apostrophe and please don't misspell it again like an ignorant child.

2. Insomnia is no excuse for ignorance. If you don't do any fact checking you're being gullible on top of being sleepless.

3. It's not Trump fault. (Just getting ahead of the curve with this one.)

 

[Luk]

That's all rather bleak.
There's no viable solution at all, in your opinion?

Don't listen to SpazBot2K. He's an hysterical cunt who couldn't make it in my great state so his bitterness leads to his bullshit.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Don't listen to SpazBot2K. He's an hysterical cunt who couldn't make it in my great state so his bitterness leads to his bullshit.

I robbed your state for an early retirement in a much cleaner state with better education, healthcare, far less homelessness, income inequality and practically unlimited free water.

Not my bitterness, I'm not the racist ass justice system of LA/CA.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/18/los-angeles-death-penalty-sentences-jackie-lacey