Next Pub presidential debate tonight, 10/28/15

[sr71plt]

Jeb's razzing of Rubio's voting record was OK (especially if he'd gotten across in the debate that the record was that bad before Rubio declared for the presidency), but he wasn't at all clever about inserting it into the debate. I wonder what his congressional voting record is in comparison with that of Ted Cruz and Rand Paul.

I also think the question of Rubio's personal finances was legitimate and the moderators shouldn't have permitted it to be given short shrift.

I'd think that Jeb has nothing to lose by sticking around to see if/when Trump and Carson implode and the Republicans take this all more seriously.

 

[JackLuis]

-
I'd think that Jeb has nothing to lose by sticking around to see if/when Trump and Carson implode and the Republicans take this all more seriously.

After the first two primaries, it'll get serious. This prelim is just to fire up the bases. So far the Republican debates have been creampuff's and lobbed pitches. Fox nor CNBC have made it tough because of the number of candidates means that there is not enough time for a candidate to discuss much. Huckabee and Cruz and Trump take up too much time with propaganda.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Who the fuck are these librulz who don't want control over our immigration system? It's not Hillary or Obama or Sanders or Warren. If they were true to their platform it would be Ron and Rand but they are only libertarian when it's easier than being Republican. (so mostly on drugs)

Mostly just KO and DanC. Every now and then Rj will come in and spaz the fuck out about it.

I totally agree, the vast majority of libertarians are just republican stoners.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I was harsh on Rand and Ron. They are fairly consistently less hawk than Republicans.

 

[Porkwarrior]

1) You're all idiots

2). Bernie Sanders dying in the starting gate proves #1

3) Christie should just give up already

4) A Hilary vs. Trump election goes back to #1

 

[NOIRTRASH]

At this point, he's a fool if he doesn't drop out before Super Tuesday.

You don't understand politics. Bush will be the nominee.

 

[KingOrfeo]

You don't understand politics. Bush will be the nominee.

Will he win the primaries?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Will he win the primaries?

Most likely.

 

[sr71plt]

Just saw on FB a take on Rubio's low appearance rate on Senate voting that I hadn't considered--the thought that it's probably a good thing that he isn't voting his position there much.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Will he win the primaries?

Trump wont win enough primaries to cinch it, so Wall Street and Hillary will force the also-rans out so they can steer the votes to Jeb. Jeb wont win shit but will get most of the delegates.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Trump wont win enough primaries to cinch it, so Wall Street and Hillary will force the also-rans out so they can steer the votes to Jeb. Jeb wont win shit but will get most of the delegates.

Not since the 1976 Republican National Convention has either party's convention featured a nomination floor-fight. We might be in for an interesting show next year.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Just saw on FB a take on Rubio's low appearance rate on Senate voting that I hadn't considered--the thought that it's probably a good thing that he isn't voting his position there much.

Of course it is. But, is it a good thing in the eyes of Republican primary voters?

 

[sr71plt]

I'm really hoping that Jeb hangs on until the crazies are weeded out in the "let's really think this out" primary votes. Although it might be time for someone else less crazy than the norm for this slate of candidates to come back in. This is making Romney look really good and reasonable in contrast.

I don't think the bumbling of clowns at present makes this a "done deal" for Hillary in the general election. There will still be those who vote "anyone but Hillary" and support for the chosen party regardless.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Mostly just KO and DanC.

Have I ever demanded open borders? I do think we should amnesty the 11 million or so illegal/undocumented/permissive immigrants already in the country, but that's just common sense, we would really miss them if we left, there would be such economic disruption! They might as well stay, therefore their status might as well be regularized. As for the future . . . well, it should be made somewhat easier to get into this country legally, because let's face it, with our aging population we need lots of immigrants in the workforce. But we can still afford to be selective about who gets in; none of this is saying we should abolish the border patrol or have completely unregulated immigration, like we had at all times before the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882.

 

[sr71plt]

Of course it is. But, is it a good thing in the eyes of Republican primary voters?

I think the point of not doing the job you already have before concentrating on the next step up is too subtle for American voters, in general, to get.

This puts Rubio in a bind, though. He doesn't have outside income; he can't just quit the Senate to concentrate on his campaign. I'd still like to see the comparison to what Cruz and Rand are doing. Are they doing the jobs they already have as well as running a campaign? Rubio shouldn't be criticized if they aren't doing any better.

Also begging the issue for me is aren't there other, better qualified Republican senators hanging back from running--and why? Rubio is just an initial Obama candidate--good for development but grasping too soon. Cruz and Rand are fringe nuts.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Also begging the issue for me is aren't there other, better qualified Republican senators hanging back from running--and why?

Probably there are, and they're hanging back because they despair of getting the nomination because they are qualified. This is not the year for qualified Pubs, nor will it be the year until the Tea Party fades away. In any case, it's too late now for them to get in the race.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't see it as too late for someone sensible riding in on a white horse (with RNC backing) for the Republicans. I can just hear the sign of relief from the party center at this being done. There are a couple of vice president possibilities in the current lineup (including the undercard--and even those, like Gilmore, who have declared but aren't even on the undercard) but certainly no presidential possibilities (with the exception of Jeb, despite his baggage, substandard debating capability, and lack of outrageous behavior skills).

 

[NOIRTRASH]

The GOP dumped NBC from 2/26 debate. CNBC pissed too many off.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Not since the 1976 Republican National Convention has either party's convention featured a nomination floor-fight. We might be in for an interesting show next year.

There's civil war in the GOP. It will spread to the rest of America as America pushes back against you loons.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I don't see it as too late for someone sensible riding in on a white horse (with RNC backing) for the Republicans. I can just hear the sign of relief from the party center at this being done. There are a couple of vice president possibilities in the current lineup (including the undercard--and even those, like Gilmore, who have declared but aren't even on the undercard) but certainly no presidential possibilities (with the exception of Jeb, despite his baggage, substandard debating capability, and lack of outrageous behavior skills).

Yeah, well . . .

Friday, Oct 30, 2015 11:09 AM EDT

The GOP establishment is cooked: Why it’s powerless against the ultra-right’s onslaught

Stick a fork in the GOP graybeards. The latest fracas over debate rules shows how they've completely lost control

Sean Illing

The Republican Party has changed a lot in the last two decades. The birth of Fox News in 1996 and the explosion of right-wing talk radio has dramatically altered the way conservatives acquire and disseminate information.

On the one hand, this has been good for grassroots conservativism. There’s now a vibrant echo chamber within which propaganda and talking points spread like wildfire. The conservative base, as a result, is continually charged with a sense of urgency and persecution mania. Every month, it seems, there’s a new crisis narrative, a new scandal, a new liberal scheme to bring down the Republic.

While the emergent conservative ecosystem has worked wonders for demagogues and political entrepreneurs, it’s been disastrous for the Republican National Committee (RNC) and the establishment wing of the party. They simply can’t control the party any longer, and they’re increasingly hated by their own constituencies.

The religious right and the Tea Party movement, because they’re the most animated, have pulled the party further and further to the right. In the meantime, the rest of the country, including many centrists and independents, are running away from the Republican Party as fast as they can.

All of this is playing out in near tragic fashion in the Republican presidential race. You’ve got two candidates at the top of the polls, Donald Trump and Ben Carson, who can’t win a general election and who have no business running for president. But the base loves them and is supporting them almost out of spite, because the establishment keeps telling them to rally behind a Bush or a Romney or some other milquetoast moderate.

The conservative lust for an outsider has benefited not just Trump and Carson but also candidates like Ted Cruz and Carly Fiorina, who’ve been empowered by a base who wants everything the establishment doesn’t. It’s no accident that candidates, even veteran politicians like Bobby Jindal and Rick Santorum, are selling themselves as outsiders – that’s what conservatives are demanding right now, and they don’t care about the process or experience or even credentials.

Things appear to be getting worse for the RNC. According to Politico, several of the campaigns are now openly revolting against the RNC because they’re unhappy with the debate process. Alex Isenstadt writes:

Republican presidential campaigns are planning to gather in Washington, D.C., on Sunday evening to plot how to alter their party’s messy debate process – and how to remove power from the hands of the Republican National Committee. Not invited to the meeting: Anyone from the RNC, which many candidates have openly criticized in the hours since Wednesday’s CNBC debate.

The meeting is being organized by the campaigns of Trump, Carson, Jindal and Lindsey Graham. And this makes a lot sense. Trump and Carson would rather not debate at all — their campaigns have nothing to do with the issues, after all. Jindal is a punchline whose only appeal is to religious nuts in Iowa, so of course he wants to circumnavigate the process. Graham, I assume, just wants a little attention. The point, though, is that this gambit may actually work. Because the RNC has lost its grip on the party, the candidates aren’t obliged to follow its lead. It seems the candidates are beginning to take advantage of this fact.

Bottom line: This isn’t the RNC’s party anymore. They don’t have any leverage. The base gets their marching orders from institutions outside the party and the candidates are, ultimately, responsive to Republican voters, not the RNC.

At the end of the day, the candidates have to give the people what they want, and the people clearly want an outsider, someone not rubber stamped by the establishment. That means the campaigns, so long as they pander to the base, have more power than the RNC does. If they’re able to override the RNC on something as important as the debate process, then you can expect them to cave on more demands in the future.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Have I ever demanded open borders?

No you just lose your shit in a liburhul fit any time anyone suggest anything...ANYTHING to the right of the furthest bleeding heart lefty position possible. Like amnesty all the ones here and make it easy for the rest to come on in.....1 step short of open borders.

I do think we should amnesty the 11 million or so illegal/undocumented/permissive immigrants already in the country, but that's just common sense, we would really miss them if we left, there would be such economic disruption!

No we wouldn't....got plenty. Yes Americans would have to start paying other americans a real wage to scrub toilets and pick fruit....OMG HOW HORRIBLE!!

They might as well stay, therefore their status might as well be regularized. As for the future . . . well, it should be made somewhat easier to get into this country legally, because let's face it, with our aging population we need lots of immigrants in the workforce.

It doesn't need to be regularized it needs to be TIGHTLY REGULATED.....you want to be socialist? You have to protect the coffers of the socialist state far far more than a free/capitalist state. You want socialism right? Well that means socialist immigration policy, tight ass'ed as all fuck. Much like the European socialist states if someone who wants in isn't smart/rich enough to impress the government or marrying one of our citizens, or being used as an international political circle jerk then they are not worth the resources they will consumer and they need to fuck right off until we have zero unemployment and no one to do low wage menial labor.

When our economy becomes THAT kick ass we can start letting unskilled labor back in.

But we can still afford to be selective about who gets in; none of this is saying we should abolish the border patrol or have completely unregulated immigration, like we had at all times before the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882.

The further left we go the tighter that selection process will have to get.

 

[KingOrfeo]

You want socialism right?

Social democracy will do. It ain't the same thing, though you no doubt will remain persistently and willfully oblivious to the distinction. (N.B.: Apart from Belarus, there are no socialist states in Europe, not even those where the current ruling party is styled "Socialist".)

 

[sr71plt]

The GOP dumped NBC from 2/26 debate. CNBC pissed too many off.

Rightly so, I think. Most of the candidates can shoot themselves in the feet on reasonable questions.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

The GOP and DNC aren't responsive to their bases. If Hillary hadda stranglehold of the Democrats Sanders wouldn't be in the race. The GOP anointed Bush but the base hates him. Neither person has a platform anyone wants.

In America right now both parties have fucked over anyone who works for a paycheck, and the payback is at hand.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Social democracy will do.

Close enough for my point about immigration to stand.

It ain't the same thing, though you no doubt will remain persistently and willfully oblivious to the distinction. (N.B.: Apart from Belarus, there are no socialist states in Europe, not even those where the current ruling party is styled "Socialist".)

I know, and I'm not obvious to the distinction.

And none of that changes the fact that the further left you go the tighter you have to be with your immigration.

That's why not a SINGLE European socialist democracy is even remotely close to as open as the US is about immigration. By comparison they are total fucking tight ass's. Because of the simple reality they can't afford not to be.

In America right now both parties have fucked over anyone who works for a paycheck, and the payback is at hand.

That would be nice.

Unfortunately most of the lemmings are for establishment career pol's keeping the same ol shit up.