"No Child Left Behind"?

[matriarch]

.......

Nonetheless, by 2014 every single school in every single state must achieve 100% competency from all students in math and reading.

Right.

Exactly.
We all know that every child progresses at the same rate, and achieves certain levels of learning at the same time.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

My apology for thinking you were in the teaching profession and a union member.

I do have a rather nebulous question for you and anyone else who might care to answer.

Why to you assume that the function of the market place is so cruel as to dismiss children?

I should just leave it at that question and see how and if you respond...as a matter of fact, I think I will, but there are a host of other questions that go along with that one.

amicus...

I'll try a slightly different answer. History.

Before a free education was provided, those who could afford it sent their children to school or hired private tutors. Those who couldn't sent them to mills or factories to work. Or sent them to the fields to plant and harvest.

 

[SensualCealy]

To add some info to Robs post:

In Ontario our children are expected to be government tested in grades 3, 6, 9 and 10.

In grade 3 the testing is basically comprehencive, knowing what you are reading and how to express what you read.
In grade 6 the testing is basically math (I think, it was only last year!).
In grade 9 it is math for sure, and grade 10 is literacy.

Now, in all of these government testings, you as a parent and the teacher has the right to refuse testing for your child if he or she has difficulties in certain areas.

In grade 10 if you do NOT pass the literacy test, you do not graduate until you do!
So you start kindergarten at 4yrs- you are in grade 10 at about 15yrs. If you fail the test, what does this say about the teachers for the other 12 years?

What it says is:
Your child was slipped through
Your child wasnt given the education according to their learning ability
Your child didnt have enough of a problem to warrant resource help
Your child 'may' have had underlying learning issues that were undetected
Your child 'may' have come from a home where alcohol was a factor during gestation
Your child 'may' have ADHD
Your child 'may' have ADD
And many many more issues...

I am so sick and tired of people always blaming the teacher for their childs learning issues.
I however am one of those people!!!
My daughter from an early age couldnt spell. In May of grade 2 the teacher tested her and found she needed resource time to improve the spelling. Fall grade 3, too many kids in the class are special needs kids. Teacher blattenly said, Cat's problem isnt severe enough to get her resource time this year. The time alotted for that class was already used up.
I go out and spend hundreds on phonics based learning matterials. (phonics is NOT taught in Ontario anymore!)
Grade 4, teacher is a bitch, just because, but helps by giving Cat a Phonics book she kept on hand for kids she noticed needed help. We finished the book, but she still cant spell.
Grade 5- diddly was done, less attention spent on the negative and more on the possitive the teacher said. Cat was put in the six word spelling list group.
Grade 6- THIS PISSED ME OFF! The teacher said, "You do NOT need to know how to spell to get a University degree! I couldnt and I got mine!" WTF!!
I dont care about the degree, I dont want my kid to have to struggle like I did all my life not knowing how to spell! NO RESOURCE TIME! NO NOTHING!
Grade 7, first week of school, her teacher CALLS ME! " Has Cat been tested for her learning disabilities?" Ahhhh NO, "Lets get her tested" NO FRIGGING PROBLEM THERE!
Teacher sets her up with resource, resource teacher says " We dont usually test this late in a childs schooling, most are detected much earlier than this. I wouldnt know where to start!" WTF!
Now, she is in grade 7, spells at about a grade 4 level, was only tested in grade 2, and is expected in two years to pass the literacy test!

I bust my ass every year trying to get her the help she needs to cope, finally this year, I found at Staples ( office supply) a small calculator type device that assists in spelling words. In elementry school K-8 they are allowed to use these, but, will she be allowed come grade 9 for exams?
This will be a never ending battle with the education system. But Ive come to the conclusion its not the teachers, its the amount of resources they are given for the amount of special needs kids in their classes that either makes or breaks the teacher.

In grade 7 Cat says when the kids in her class go to resource there are only 8 out of 29 kids that are left in the class!!! That means for some reason or another 21 of those kids are learning disabled. You tell me how one person is to deal with 21 different disabilities in various degrees as well as the other 8 students that may or may not have undetected disabilities or may even be advanced and need a different type of attention?

In my experience its the school board and governments fault for not forking over the money and resources needed to assist these teachers that are in this field of work for the kids!

Too many kids fall between the cracks because of wealth, race (not so much in our area, we pride our selves when it comes to ESL) or social standing.

We have public education as well as private education, but in our area, private comes few and far between. I dont think public education is bad, heck we have world renouned Drs that came through our schools and have done well for themselves. But I think, if your child is a main stream kid without any learning issues they will do fine, my oldest did, yet he could have used a push to do more with his ability to learn.

I guess what Im trying to say, is it isnt teachers unions up here that cause all the shit, its the government, and yes some parents that dont think their child needs to be identified as a special needs kid.

THe old saying that it takes a village to raise a child comes true in education. The more people help the better off your child will be. THe more they are secluded the more apt they will be to drop out and struggle the rest of their lives.
C

 

[sophia jane]

What galls me the most about NCLB is that the schools spend so much time preparing the kids to take the tests. It's not for the benefit of the students so much as it is for the school's evaluation in meeting the NCLB standards.

Yes, I agree with you completely on this. Because the tests focus on reading and math, a larger percentage of the elemantary curriculm is now devoted exclusively to those subjects, so things like science and history are taking a beating. The arts, of course, get the biggest shaft.
My son had testing here last week. Tests were only two days. The entire week before the testing, they did "review." No other work was done; just review. Testing was Tuesday/Wednesday, so review was held on Monday, too. They tested Tues/Wed and then only had school Thursday- they watched a movie because the teacher felt they needed a "break" after testing. So that's two weeks of school that was nothing new; no actual learning took place. That's completely ridiculous, in my opinion. But then, I'm not impressed at all with the schools here.

 

[oggbashan]

One of the measures used to assess schools in England is the improvement in the children's abilities.

Especially if the school has a high proportion of children with special needs either 'statemented' (officially classified for need) or unstatemented, then the improvement that those children achieve is included in the measures. A significant improvement is good for the school. Some schools, e.g. one in my town, specialise in particular needs i.e. hearing problems.

The linked Infants and Junior Schools in our town centre draw their pupils from the most deprived part of our town, not that any part of it is significantly deprived, yet their results are comparable with schools in the affluent parts of town. Their measure for 'improvement' is high and their raw results bear comparison with any of our local schools.

As far as I know, in the last 25 years only three children have left those schools at age eleven unable to read and write reasonably. Those three were from the same family. By working and co-operating with the mother and the secondary school, the staff of the lower schools were able to ensure that the three children AND their mother could read and write by the time the children were aged 16. For those children that was a significant achievement yet the time spent by the lower schools after the children had left at 11 wasn't measured or acknowledged by any of the statistical systems.

The English system tries to ensure that every child has an opportunity to learn. Our problem is that many children don't want to learn and their parents do not value education either. How that problem is tackled is another matter.

Og

 

[yui]

I do have a rather nebulous question for you and anyone else who might care to answer.

Why to you assume that the function of the market place is so cruel as to dismiss children?

I should just leave it at that question and see how and if you respond...as a matter of fact, I think I will, but there are a host of other questions that go along with that one.

amicus...

Has a true market economy ever existed? I mean, sure, it might work in theory, but then there are lots of great socioeconomic theories; communism, socialism, Marxism, capitalism … most of the isms are valid as theories, but they tend to fail in some aspect in the execution, eh?

And I’m curious why you think the function of a free market (true laissez-faire) wouldn’t dismiss those least capable of ever contributing to it?

Amicus... what are the 'differing learning abilities' between ethnic groups?

Really... this one I gotta hear.

Sincerely,
ElSol

Yeah, I'm holding my breath for the answer to this one, too.

What galls me the most about NCLB is that the schools spend so much time preparing the kids to take the tests. It's not for the benefit of the students so much as it is for the school's evaluation in meeting the NCLB standards.

Agreed, Bel. I have heard repeatedly that all teachers end up doing is “teaching to the test” and children are losing out on so many positive aspects, the joys, of discovering and learning.

You want kids to be well educated? Pay for it, and give them some hope.

Peace, Rob. You’re brilliant and compassionate; not always an easy thing to be. I admire you.

 

[rgraham666]

I lied. Posting here again. I'm such a hypocrite.

Anyway, in my mind, the biggest problem is that our educational system(s) use the wrong paradigm.

Our schools are a production line. They are designed not to turn out human beings suitable for citizenship, but human resources suitable for employment.

And all production lines are designed to use only certain processes that reject raw materials that don't fit into the design. This is why so many kids get left behind.

It's wonderfully efficient, but not that effective.

A better paradigm would be gardening. Prep the soil, plant at the right time, weed, feed and trim as needed when needed. The results will be beautiful.

But the latter would take far more money than we currently spend. And we, more importantly those who actually have money, aren't willing to spend that money.

 

[rgraham666]

Peace, Rob. You’re brilliant and compassionate; not always an easy thing to be. I admire you.

Thank you, yui.

 

[sophia jane]

I lied. Posting here again. I'm such a hypocrite.

Anyway, in my mind, the biggest problem is that our educational system(s) use the wrong paradigm.

Our schools are a production line. They are designed not to turn out human beings suitable for citizenship, but human resources suitable for employment.

And all production lines are designed to use only certain processes that reject raw materials that don't fit into the design. This is why so many kids get left behind.

It's wonderfully efficient, but not that effective.

A better paradigm would be gardening. Prep the soil, plant at the right time, weed, feed and trim as needed when needed. The results will be beautiful.

But the latter would take far more money than we currently spend. And we, more importantly those who actually have money, aren't willing to spend that money.

This is one reason I love my degree program that I'm in now. There's no practical use for it at all. The mission statement of my department:
"The mission of the College of Liberal Studies is to provide the highest quality interdisciplinary education to non-traditional students. The College utilizes its setting within a comprehensive research university to enhance students' skills as life-long learners, thereby enriching their lives at the personal and professional levels and encouraging them to participate in the work of active citizenship."
And it's not bs either. At least not for me.

 

[Liar]

I lied. Posting here again. I'm such a hypocrite.

Anyway, in my mind, the biggest problem is that our educational system(s) use the wrong paradigm.

Our schools are a production line. They are designed not to turn out human beings suitable for citizenship, but human resources suitable for employment.

Those two shoud ideally not have to be in conflict. Sadly, the way that the job market looks, they most often are. The majority of the job market seems to be looing for effectiveness and conformity. They are organisations set in their direction, and they need synchronized workers to keep the speed up. So what they want is a set of skills to be adapted to a company's structure and absorbed as a part of that company's strength. Even in the reasonably free capitalistic market society, only the lucky few can escape being reduced to anthill people. If that company is 'the government' or 'the corcporation' has no real difference.

What society needs is a broad base of citizens with enough backbone to challenge it, and enough inspired sprirt to keep on growing on their own after they leave the school system. The dichotomy is all too clear.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Those two shoud ideally not have to be in conflict. Sadly, the way that the job market looks, they most often are. The majority of the job market seems to be looing for effectiveness and conformity. They are organisations set in their direction, and they need synchronized workers to keep the speed up. So what they want is a set of skills to be adapted to a company's structure and absorbed as a part of that company's strength. Even in the reasonably free capitalistic market society, only the lucky few can escape being reduced to anthill people. If that company is 'the government' or 'the corcporation' has no real difference.

What society needs is a broad base of citizens with enough backbone to challenge it, and enough inspired sprirt to keep on growing on their own after they leave the school system.

Skillset.

That's the main word. A student coming out of HS should have a certain skill set.

At a minimum, he/she should be abel to read and comprehend, write and do basic math.

The particular skill set an employer demands is likely to varry wildly and much of it will come thorugh experience with the employer or through company based training. I did no tneed to know how to use a volt meter to apply for a job with the phone co, but I did need to be able to read the cface of one and understand what I was looking at.

Your primary education should prepare you for the more specialized education your job will entail. That means you should be getting an overview of a lot of fields, with a basic "nuts and bolts" in the building blocks, reading, writing and math.

 

[rgraham666]

I disagree, Colleen.

It isn't skill set that employers are looking for, but mind set. And that mind set, in the words of my favourite writer, is best described as 'courtier'.

In my experience in the working world, the person I am was always more important than the work I did. I 'wasn't properly deferential to authourity', 'did not enjoy positive realtions with his peers', wasn't 'able to ensure proper paperwork was done', couldn't 'meet the norms'. All these are quotes from written reviews by the way.

My work was always excellent, except when my illness got in the way. But that, in my opinion, was a secondary, often tertiary consideration for my employers.

People who could barely code their way out of a paper bag went up, up and up. Because they were the 'right type of people'. Me? Stayed pretty much at the same spot my whole career.

I admit it's much my fault, for not being able to change who I am very much. But I had a lot to offer, and no one noticed.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Yet more evidence that Bush's "no child left behind" dealio is as crooked as he is:

2 million scores ignored in ‘No Child’ loophole
AP: With help of states, U.S. government, schools duck potential penalties

Editor's Note: More than four years after President Bush signed the No Child Left Behind Act, nearly 2 million children’s test scores aren’t being counted under the law’s required racial categories. An Associated Press review found states are exploiting a legal loophole that is giving a false picture of academic progress. The law also is creating financial gain for some private consultants, and leaving teachers increasingly skeptical that all children will be able to read and perform math as promised. This is the first of a four-part series describing what AP found across the country.

Minorities — who historically haven’t fared as well as whites in testing — make up the vast majority of students whose scores are being excluded, AP found. And the numbers have been rising.

Under the law championed by President Bush, all public school students must be proficient in reading and math by 2014, although only children above second grade are required to be tested.

Schools receiving federal aid also must demonstrate annually that students in all racial categories are progressing or risk penalties that include extending the school year, changing curriculum or firing administrators and teachers.

Students whose tests aren’t being counted in required categories include Hispanics in California who don’t speak English well, blacks in the Chicago suburbs, American Indians in the Northwest and special education students in Virginia, AP found.

Bush’s home state of Texas — once cited as a model for the federal law — excludes scores for two entire groups. No test scores from Texas’ 65,000 Asian students or from several thousand American Indian students are broken out by race. The same is true in Arkansas.

One consequence is that educators are creating a false picture of academic progress.

“The states aren’t hiding the fact that they’re gaming the system,” said Dianne Piche, executive director of the Citizens’ Commission on Civil Rights, a group that supports No Child Left Behind. “When you do the math ... you see that far from this law being too burdensome and too onerous, there are all sorts of loopholes.”

To calculate a nationwide estimate, AP analyzed the 2003-04 enrollment figures the government collected — the latest on record — and applied the current racial category exemptions the states use.

Overall, AP found that about 1.9 million students — or about 1 in every 14 test scores — aren’t being counted under the law’s racial categories. Minorities are seven times as likely to have their scores excluded as whites, the analysis showed.

Less than 2 percent of white children’s scores aren’t being counted as a separate category. In contrast, Hispanics and blacks have roughly 10 percent of their scores excluded. More than one-third of Asian scores and nearly half of American Indian scores aren’t broken out, AP found.

Full article

Didn't they do this kind of thing in the Soviet Union? You know, fudge numbers and cook the books to make things appear cool when they weren't? It's one thing to have high standards. It's quite another to mistreat kids in order to make it LOOOOOOK like you have high standards. Sounds like the kind of nonsense that you would expect out of Brezhnev.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I disagree, Colleen.

It isn't skill set that employers are looking for, but mind set. And that mind set, in the words of my favourite writer, is best described as 'courtier'.

In my experience in the working world, the person I am was always more important than the work I did. I 'wasn't properly deferential to authourity', 'did not enjoy positive realtions with his peers', wasn't 'able to ensure proper paperwork was done', couldn't 'meet the norms'. All these are quotes from written reviews by the way.

My work was always excellent, except when my illness got in the way. But that, in my opinion, was a secondary, often tertiary consideration for my employers.

People who could barely code their way out of a paper bag went up, up and up. Because they were the 'right type of people'. Me? Stayed pretty much at the same spot my whole career.

I admit it's much my fault, for not being able to change who I am very much. But I had a lot to offer, and no one noticed.

Sounds like a lot of why people get rejected for jobs, too. They might seem qualified, but if they are not "people persons", their chances are poorer.

At my previous job, I was kept largely in the same spot, as you put it, because I didn't always get along with my supervisor. I was one of the few men in a mostly female firm, and that didn't help either, since I didn't put up with the sexist, male-bashing atmosphere there. They knew that I didn't care for it. And that bit me in the ass. That, and the bosses all had old girlfriends that they hired ahead of me.

Been there, done that. So I know what it's like to be the "outsider" or the "maverick". And I can't change my cantankerous nature. It's an innate part of my personality.

But Colly has a point too. Skills don't exactly hurt you most of the time. It's probably a mix of the two, with the ratio depending on your employers.

But after how my Uncle Jimmy lost his state job for false accusations of sexual harassment from somebody who didn't like him, I would have to say that the chances of nepotism are probably higher in government settings, where performance counts for less and personality for more.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Back to the original subject, of Bush's program and whetther or not it will work;

As a mom embroiled in the public school system, I've always said that if he'd said NO CLASSROOM OVER TWENTY we would have seen a great deal of improvement in allover scores. The best teacher in the world cannnot do their best with more than twenty school-children, and the worst teacher will be, at least, a little bit better.

Of course, with a simple, easily checkable goal like that, it would have been SO obvious, SO quickly, that he was a liar. Because he would need to attract more terachers, and to do that- he would have needed to make the job better. And that would have meant that more money would go to teachers, and all his beloved experst would have been out in the cold... okay, end of rant.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

My experience is the opposite of Robs. I usually moved up beacuse I didn't fit in. I did my job and pretty much left the rest of it alone. So I didn't get many invites to parties, but I was very efficeint and I got my assingments done before due.

My main point thugh wasn't about working relations, it was about preparing kids for adulthood. Which is what school really is, prep for the real world. In the real world most of us have to work, so I have no problem skewing the educational requirements towards making a person hireable. It's very hard to land a job if you cannot read, write or do simple math. It's difficult to train someone who cannot do all three to fit any position a company might have.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

It is interesting, with your firm stance on anti-abortion, that you neither want to provide for the unwanted children nor to educate them.

Amicus... what are the 'differing learning abilities' between ethnic groups?

Really... this one I gotta hear.

Fancy that, no answer from amicus..? It COULDN'T be that it's... sorry, I mean HE's merely interested in controlling women's sexuality and looking down on minorities, could it? I mean, surely he must have something to SAY about this, right?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

My experience is the opposite of Robs. I usually moved up beacuse I didn't fit in. I did my job and pretty much left the rest of it alone. So I didn't get many invites to parties, but I was very efficeint and I got my assingments done before due.

My main point thugh wasn't about working relations, it was about preparing kids for adulthood. Which is what school really is, prep for the real world. In the real world most of us have to work, so I have no problem skewing the educational requirements towards making a person hireable. It's very hard to land a job if you cannot read, write or do simple math. It's difficult to train someone who cannot do all three to fit any position a company might have.

Indeed. Though a good civics course helps. Most of the students aren't going to be profound thinkers, and the ones who are will seek out that kind of extra education on their own. I know that I did. Most just want a good, steady job, especially in an unstable global economy. Certain things that are great for profound thought are great....as electives.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Indeed. Though a good civics course helps. Most of the students aren't going to be profound thinkers, and the ones who are will seek out that kind of extra education on their own. I know that I did. Most just want a good, steady job, especially in an unstable global economy. Certain things that are great for profound thought are great....as electives.

I think a well rounded education is best, with some humanities, some hard sciences and a good dose of the three Rs. If nothing else, simply teaching critical thinking skills ould be a hugeplus.

But I don't see much of that or much of the three rs. I see a lot of kids who come out predispsed to a McJob, welfare of Crime.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I think a well rounded education is best, with some humanities, some hard sciences and a good dose of the three Rs. If nothing else, simply teaching critical thinking skills ould be a hugeplus.

But I don't see much of that or much of the three rs. I see a lot of kids who come out predispsed to a McJob, welfare of Crime.

Clear, level-headed, and far too impartial or sensible to ever be adopted by most politicians.

To quote Nietzsche, "One is punished most for one's virtues." That would apply to such an approach. You're liable to piss off every special interest in the country by not deferring to their agendas.

But that's still well stated for the record. This is why you would never make it in politics. You're right 80% of the time and you don't fit into any powerful faction.

 

[Xelebes]

My apology for thinking you were in the teaching profession and a union member.

I do have a rather nebulous question for you and anyone else who might care to answer.

Why to you assume that the function of the market place is so cruel as to dismiss children?

I should just leave it at that question and see how and if you respond...as a matter of fact, I think I will, but there are a host of other questions that go along with that one.

amicus...

Why? Because it did.

 

[SensualCealy]

Back to the original subject, of Bush's program and whetther or not it will work;

As a mom embroiled in the public school system, I've always said that if he'd said NO CLASSROOM OVER TWENTY we would have seen a great deal of improvement in allover scores. The best teacher in the world cannnot do their best with more than twenty school-children, and the worst teacher will be, at least, a little bit better.

Of course, with a simple, easily checkable goal like that, it would have been SO obvious, SO quickly, that he was a liar. Because he would need to attract more terachers, and to do that- he would have needed to make the job better. And that would have meant that more money would go to teachers, and all his beloved experst would have been out in the cold... okay, end of rant.

Right now our school board is in the process of implementing this for grades 1-8. It most definately would be a benefit to all. Only thing is, they have closed so many schools in the last 8 years many of the schools dont have room for that many classes. Our district alone was informed by a government hired company that we would be losing another 18(? it could be higher) schools in the next few years. Then what, where will all these kids go when they have to fit into this 20 and under program? They will build mega schools, Junior Kindergarten- grade 12!

A new problem all on its own.
C

 

[rgraham666]

Right now our school board is in the process of implementing this for grades 1-8. It most definately would be a benefit to all. Only thing is, they have closed so many schools in the last 8 years many of the schools dont have room for that many classes. Our district alone was informed by a government hired company that we would be losing another 18(? it could be higher) schools in the next few years. Then what, where will all these kids go when they have to fit into this 20 and under program? They will build mega schools, Junior Kindergarten- grade 12!

A new problem all on its own.
C

I have to laugh at this, cause I'd cry otherwise.

Building new schools is a lot more expensive than maintaining the old ones.

But there are far fewer photo ops for something as mundane as maintenance.

And not nearly as much profit.

 

[Bishonen]

I have to laugh at this, cause I'd cry otherwise.

Building new schools is a lot more expensive than maintaining the old ones.

But there are far fewer photo ops for something as mundane as maintenance.

And not nearly as much profit.

And less likely to get fundings. What company wants to be associated with an old, repaired school?