Non-consent

[alohadave]

Can I even write a story without crossing categories?

It's an exceedingly common problem. Many of my stories have multiple themes, and could go in more than one category.

I'd say just pick one, and submit to it. You could also put a note in the Admin Notes field asking Laurel to place it where she thinks is most appropriate.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

I've been sitting on the story since I joined because of it, lol.

Like, does it matter that the entire nc side of things is pre-planned by all participants even if one of the three doesn't know the full plan? Is that still nc? Or does the gm element trump a CNC situation? Is GM tolerant of bi characters? A MMF threesome with feigned reluctance and a little violence?

Can I even write a story without crossing categories? Lol. (It also has some heavy E/V elements, anal, and, despite knowing it's not right for the category, is ultimately a story about a romance between friends.)

I've dealt with this dilemma as well to the point I've debated omitting a future planned scene because of the cross-category content. I guess I'm going to find out myself soon enough because I have a GM reluctance scene in the series coming up. The entire series thus far was moved from Erotic Horror to NC/R with no issues due to the shifting nature of it's content... but I still consider it very much an erotic horror story. It's so hard navigating categories sometimes!

I'm going to say if the primary focus is the NC/CNC content, then you should place it into NC/R. Almost especially if there are bisexual characters. I've written a consensual lesbian scene with a male voyeur, and a F/M romance scene in the same series placed in NC/R, both with proper tags to no poor reception.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Do you have examples of stories that fit this bill? Where the characters in the stories are pretending that their conduct is nonconsent? If you don't have examples, then CNC is not a real thing at Literotica. It's a type of role play people engage in in real life, ie., husband comes through the window and pretends to rape the wife. What does this have to do with Literotica stories?

https://literotica.com/s/anjalis-red-scarf-ch-06

Plenty of others out there, but that's the one that I can remember easily.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Non-consent​

I’ve been down this rabbit hole way too many times here. Write what you want to write, but consider that words have power. That’s why we write. If they had no power to impact others, positively or negatively, there is little point publishing. What you view as harmless fantasies may be seen through a different lens to the one you intended (or at least that I hope you intended).

But…

Non-con is a euphemism for rape. If you want to write rape fantasies, then be honest enough to call them that. Non-con is trying to put lipstick on a pig. Call it what it really is and don’t try to comfort yourselves in an Animal Farm way that rape bad, non-con better.

I have no idea what reluctance means IRL. Again it seems to probably be another euphemism. If someone is seduced, that generally means they weren’t sure and then said yes. I don’t think that’s what reluctance means here.

The only real, non-oxymoronic use of CNC is consensual role playing with a pretend rape element. This is more a sort of BDSM (though not my sort of BDSM) in my view.

If you want to reply to this post, by all means do, but I’m not going to engage further with this thread. I’m certainly not going to get into a debate.

Em

 

[SimonDoom]

https://literotica.com/s/anjalis-red-scarf-ch-06

Plenty of others out there, but that's the one that I can remember easily.

That's not what I'm asking about. Your story was published in the "lesbian sex" category. You weren't attempting to portray it as "nonconsent." It's role play. I think you and I agree about this.

My point is that people in this forum are getting two things that are different completely mixed up.

One thing is nonconsent role play, in real life.

The other is fictional/fantasy nonconsent.

They're two different things. I think people who fantasize about nonconsent (and there are many who do, indisputably) DON'T want to read about nonconsent role play. They want to read about the real thing: rape, or something like it. The fantasy requires imagining it to be real--to imagine that sexual activity is the result of coercion of some kind. Otherwise it's just voluntary power exchange/BDSM, which is something different. That doesn't provide the same sexual satisfaction.

 

[bumpercars]

I'd argue that all of the stories we publish in the NC/R category are in a sense CNC. The writer consents to writing the story, and the reader consents to reading it, and anything that happens to the characters is a part of the shared fantasy.

From that perspective, I want to make sure that readers understand what they're signing up for by reading my stories. The category does a lot of that work but I also put a basic content warning at the beginning. I also tend to write stories that take one or two steps away from realism as well, but that's not a moral line so much as the boundaries of my kink.

I think Literotica's guidelines are in a pretty good place. The rules are there to keep the category narrow enough to be enjoyable for most readers, and that's healthy for the site and the community.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

Oh, the hilarious irony that after posting on this thread the last two chapters in the NC/R series I've published have been down voted. The one bombs will get caught in the sweeps I'm sure, just like the last few times. I've been long suspecting I've got a hater among the AH forum... I just want them to know that I don't give a fuck. I'm a solid and talented writer and the series has a fantastic following. I've made money off of it, even, and anticipate I'll continue to do so... and I'm not going to stop writing it.

I think my little hater excites me more than the positive reception at this point. I'm living rent free in some sad saps mind who probably doesn't have a shred of artistic ability.

But that said... if one can't engage in the topic of non-consensual fantasy without letting it bother them, they're probably spending way too much time on the internet and need to get in touch with reality. Nobody ever argues non-con in the real world is wrong, and trust me when I say worrying about the effects of non-con as writing pales in comparison to the entire rape/snuff porn industry that's all over the darker spaces in the internet.

The argument over the NC kink by people who don't like the kink strikes me as idiotic. Why bother yourself with something you don't like--a small fragment of a much larger website? That's asinine. Go frolic in the Romance fields or something... nobody is making you involve yourself with the subject.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's not what I'm asking about. Your story was published in the "lesbian sex" category. You weren't attempting to portray it as "nonconsent." It's role play. I think you and I agree about this.

Eh?

Here's how we got here:

I do not write rape. I feel what I write belongs more in the 'consensual non consent' (CNC) bracket, which might be called 'reluctance'. This is a popular fantasy for men and women alike, and a category with a great many writers and readers both.

To me, CNC is people who've agreed in advance to play out a non-consensual scenario, "reluctance" doesn't involve that prior consent. That's a significant difference. What do you understand by those terms?

That's CNC in the real world. In fiction you can take more liberties with fantasies. Plenty of woman have the R fantasy without ever wanting to experience it in real life and that's ok. Let them experience the loss of control to a dark and handsome man on the relative safety of the internet.

I agree with all of this, except, how is it "CNC"? CNC means consensual nonconsent, which is a contradiction. Give me an example of a story that depicts CNC. It's true that women have fantasies about rape even though they don't really want to be raped. But their fantasies are NOT CNC. Their fantasies are NC--nonconsent or rape. That's what gives the fantasy its sizzle. They're not interested in fantasizing about people who play-act rape.

I confess I'm not at all clear about what people mean by "CNC."

[quote-replying to Simon's "not clear what people mean by CNC" the rest of his post]

Roleplay. If you are playing parts in a fantasy and you agree on a storyline that involve NC, but you've agreed with each other that you are on the same page. The characters are doing the same thing. It might not be explicitly stated or spelled out, or there may be a comment alluding to it.

Do you have examples of stories that fit this bill? Where the characters in the stories are pretending that their conduct is nonconsent? If you don't have examples, then CNC is not a real thing at Literotica. It's a type of role play people engage in in real life, ie., husband comes through the window and pretends to rape the wife. What does this have to do with Literotica stories?

In reply to which, I posted an example of a story in which the characters are pretending that their conduct is nonconsensual. Which is what you were asking for. I agree that I, the author, didn't represent the story as NC, but that's not something you asked about, nor did you specify "not posted in Lesbian".

I think people who fantasize about nonconsent (and there are many who do, indisputably) DON'T want to read about nonconsent role play. They want to read about the real thing: rape, or something like it. The fantasy requires imagining it to be real--to imagine that sexual activity is the result of coercion of some kind. Otherwise it's just voluntary power exchange/BDSM, which is something different. That doesn't provide the same sexual satisfaction.

Okay, but that's not what this particular chain of discussion was about. It was about what the OP meant by 'CNC' - which seemed to me to be at odds with what I usually understand by the term. I appreciate you're interested in discussing whether CNC is something people with NC fetishes want to read, but you were engaging with people talking about something else.

 

[AlinaX]

There are various shades of NC/R, and for me at least the line is less about what actually happens than the intent behind it.

But first, since Simon is confusing everyone for reasons unknown, CNC is where the characters are playing out a scenario within pre-agreed limits. Technically this isn't rape, but often the way it's written on Lit disguises the truth until later in the story - which I find confusing, since I generally dislike unreliable narrators.

Not a million miles from this is the idea of fucking a loved one while they sleep - with their permission. Legally this crosses over into rape territory, since an unconscious person cannot consent to what is happening to them. Even if agreed to in advance, the experience might end up being a traumatic one. In terms of Lit, some readers may have good reasons to react negatively to such a scenario.

In both of the above, the 'rapist' has no intent to cross the line of consent, and for me, as a reader, awareness of the rapist's intent is everything.

1. A woman who gets trapped in a sex machine and is then forced to endure unwanted pleasure until the point of exhaustion... nice. Switching POV to a person watching gleefully as they control that machine... ugh.
2. A woman who is ravished by a lustful tentacle monster... ooh. Switching POV to the monster and finding out it's getting off on the power trip... meh.
3. Someone above mentioned the rapist not really being in control of themselves. Again, there is no malevolence here, but... If the victim is unaware of this loss of control, can it really be written as anything other than a horrifying rape scene? If the victim is aware, then like the above scenarios the story can be one of submitting to circumstances.
4. One of the tropes on Lit is the escape room scenario where characters are forced into having sex with the external threat of death. This creates something of a grey space where the characters must often transgress lines of consent. There was a story recently where the MMC is required to fuck all four of his sisters; the consequent sex varied from enthusiastic consent all the way to outright rape - which, although uncomfortable, was a quite intelligent way to play the story.

The common thread in the above is circumstances leading to a loss of control. The eroticism, IMO, works best when there is minimal or zero awareness of malevolent actors. I don't want to know the thoughts of the machine's designer or the thoughts of the tentacle monster. I don't want to see the villain cackling over the way he has turned a man into a rampaging monster, or the audience delighting as their prisoners are forced to rape each other.

And yet... Fucking mind control and sci-fi tropes, the absolute worst of which has to be time stop (says AlinaX, author of more than one such). Here the hero gets to fuck anyone he likes, and either they have zero awareness of it or they experience a momentary rush of ecstatic pleasure (science, innit). The eroticism here is the ultimate power trip of zero consequences, but ultimately it's nothing but a rape fantasy. Most mind control is similarly a power trip whereby lines of consent aren't crossed, they're just happily redrawn or erased entirely, as if stepping into someone's head and changing who they are isn't an act of extreme violence.

Q. So why do you keep writing them, AlinaX?
A. I... um.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

The common thread in the above is circumstances leading to a loss of control. The eroticism, IMO, works best when there is minimal or zero awareness of malevolent actors. I don't want to know the thoughts of the machine's designer or the thoughts of the tentacle monster. I don't want to see the villain cackling over the way he has turned a man into a rampaging monster, or the audience delighting as their prisoners are force to rape each other.

I too rather love to write dark and uncomfortable things, and sometimes I'm not even sure why. I suppose I've just got a strange muse. I often have to swat her and remind her that we aren't writing that kind of story with my light-hearted work.

I got into a similar discussion with someone not that long ago and got into why I don't think I could write in NC/R or Mind Control from the first person POV. I rarely dip into the mind of the aggressor when writing in controversial categories. It gets a little too real for my personal tastes. I also make a habit to let people know they're really not supposed to be rooting for the villains, and often times I relish in stories where my villains have their comeuppance and karma comes for them tenfold.

Answering Altissimus's original question, though... as it seems so few of us have, hahaha; I don't try to avoid going over lines or pushing boundaries, and I have never crossed my own personal lines of what I deem acceptable content here on Literotica. If I mean to write a CNC story, I'll write just that. The same goes for outright non-con, or reluctance--and as I said, I don't sugar coat it. I know what it is and what I'm writing. I don't lose a bit of sleep over who might have a problem with it. I keep my work firmly within' Lit's guidelines without straying from the vision I've had when writing work of a darker nature. I have never had work sent back and I place warnings for extra measure as to not offend but... frankly... I really don't give a shit if someone gets offended. I might even enjoy it a bit.

 

[SimonDoom]

Eh?

Here's how we got here:

But first, since Simon is confusing everyone for reasons unknown, CNC is where the characters are playing out a scenario within pre-agreed limits. Technically this isn't rape, but often the way it's written on Lit disguises the truth until later in the story - which I find confusing, since I generally dislike unreliable narrators.

Sorry to confuse everyone. I should have been clearer. I understand what CNC is in concept. My confusion was how and whether it applies to the nonconsent category. People who push CNC concepts as being appropriate for, or perhaps solely appropriate for, Noncon are, I think, missing the point, which is that for many the fantasy requires pretending that it's really nonconsent. Perhaps not for everyone. But most noncon stories that I've read really are noncon (and therefore, if the events took place in the real world, morally and legally rape) rather than pretend noncon, which is a form of consensual power exchange or BDSM. The rules that people follow in the real world to play nonconsent games but simultaneously to ensure that rape is not really happening (and therefore that nobody goes to prison) do not apply to fiction. I think some people get confused about this point in these threads. My impression is that for the most part, readers of stories in the Noncon category do NOT want to read CNC. They want to read real noncon. CNC spoils the fantasy.

 

[Altissimus]

I find it interesting that several folk who have no interest in (C)NC are keen to respond to this thread, offering alternative perspectives, and I welcome that.

However, if this subject is triggering for you, may I politely ask you to stop reading now? You're capable of making your own choices, of course, but no one is forcing you to follow this in much the same way that I will check out of LW threads.

Anyway.

Hmm. To me, CNC is people who've agreed in advance to play out a non-consensual scenario, "reluctance" doesn't involve that prior consent. That's a significant difference. What do you understand by those terms?

There's a real-world definition of rape that, strictly speaking, applies to a lot of stories on Lit (the NC/R category is far from the monopoly holder on stories of this nature, tags or no tags). But this isn't the real world, is it? We know it's fantasy, so we have a 'broader' definition of 'acceptable' - for better or for worse.

CNC works the same way. In the real world, CNC is (as has been said) play-acting a NC scene where consent has been granted in advance. In the literary world - to my mind at least - it has a broader definition. It's where the premise or scenario may focus on NC aspects, but that the 'victim' is on board with it. There's no premeditated, pre-established consent, though there might be implied consent (E.g. domination and submission), reluctance (E.g. if you'd asked me I'd've said no, but seeing as we're now here and I'm turned on despite myself... oh ok then), or actual consent (you're a bastard and this is wrong but fuck it I'm horny) implicitly or explicitly written into whatever the non-con scenario is.

For @SimonDoom, asking for examples, while I've read numerous examples of this in Lit, it's easier and safer to refer to stuff I've written and published myself.

My stories include:

• traditional CNC where permission was granted in advance, though this doesn't become apparent until later in the story
• actual consent given despite the presence of threat
• reluctant consent given - not there of own free will but willing to participate while they are
• implied consent within BDSM and D/s play.
• reluctant consent - 'victim' has limited choice but is ultimately extremely willing to embrace the idea.
• victim instigates, knowingly and deliberately, as a preference to alternatives. Very dodgy area ethically, but broadly CNC.

...not an exhaustive list.

NC/R is most certainly not - for me - all about writing violent, abusive, harmful rape stories sugar-coated by having the victim reach orgasm in the last paragraph.

There is a literary purpose for occasionally writing 'violent' sex, and within a plot I also have done so, though personally I write such things far more clinically and far less erotically than my CNC stuff; some might say there's no difference, but I would strongly disagree and invite a closer look at the range of contributions in NC/R to evidence this.

Of course, such people are unlikely to want to seek the truth: they have their opinions, and why let things like facts get in the way of that?

So yes, I legitimately feel that CNC not only has a broader definition but also an active role in NC fantasies, and provides me a (tenuous) morale justification for what I write. I know where my limits are, and remain curious as to how other NC/R authors define theirs - if they wish to share - inasmuch as they do, if they do.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

My impression is that for the most part, readers of stories in the Noncon category do NOT want to read CNC. They want to read real noncon. CNC spoils the fantasy.

I believe @oneagainst publishes CNC material for the most part, at least from what I've read of his work there's no denying that both parties in his stories are pretty into it no matter how crazy shit gets... and he's got quite high marks in the category overall. So your observation might be entirely subjective and based on the authors talent? While there are without a doubt people reading for more hardcore content (as hardcore as Literotica will allow at least), you'll find the category overall is surprisingly tolerant of everything from CNC to the mildest of reluctant or playfully coercive material...

There's a real-world definition of rape that, strictly speaking, applies to a lot of stories on Lit (the NC/R category is far from the monopoly holder on stories of this nature, tags or no tags). But this isn't the real world, is it? We know it's fantasy, so we have a 'broader' definition of 'acceptable' - for better or for worse.

CNC works the same way. In the real world, CNC is (as has been said) play-acting a NC scene where consent has been granted in advance. In the literary world - to my mind at least - it has a broader definition. It's where the premise or scenario may focus on NC aspects, but that the 'victim' is on board with it. There's no premeditated, pre-established consent, though there might be implied consent (E.g. domination and submission), reluctance (E.g. if you'd asked me I'd've said no, but seeing as we're now here and I'm turned on despite myself... oh ok then), or actual consent (you're a bastard and this is wrong but fuck it I'm horny) implicitly or explicitly written into whatever the non-con scenario is.

Very well put, and I'm inclined to agree with a lot of your terms of description... I also find bumpercars take on the idea thought provoking... that the Category on the whole can very well be classed as consensual non-consent content between authors and readers, given that it's all fantasy/fictional writing shared and received willingly between adult parties.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Every fantasy is fine unless it has direct negative consequences. As was mentioned here already, non-con is just an euphemism for rape. This is not the first thread about this category (nor the last) but over time I learned that even those among us who have a problem with rape stories have different reasons for that. For me, it's the real-world consequences. In that previous thread, there were links to some scientific evidence that actual rapists, to put it simply, get enticed to commit rape by reading (or watching) such fantasies. There were a few who questioned the research and evidence and that is all fine by me. Nothing should be accepted without a rigorous process. But the surprising thing for me was how so many participants of that discussion simply ignored the evidence that was linked there and kept talking about something else entirely.
To be completely honest and blatant here, this is how I see a typical author of rape stories: hands over the ears, singing LA-LA-LA I write rape non-con stories and they are just a fantasy, I am doing no harm LA-LA-LA.
It pisses me off because it is the same attitude that made the world a deeply unjust and ruthless place because we are just living our simple lives and we are not responsible for anything that happens out there, right? All the crap that even our own governments do all the time, we are not responsible for it - It is not like we have the power to stop it, right?
Sorry for getting all political there.
There is no conclusive evidence (I think?) that rape stories cause real-life harm. Yet. But there is SOME scientific evidence that points in that direction, and while it's fine to question it and demand further research before we restrict that incredibly important freedom to write sexualized rape stories, ignoring it is simply an act of an irresponsible and selfish mindset.

 

[SimonDoom]

So your observation might be entirely subjective and based on the authors talent? While there are without a doubt people reading for more hardcore content (as hardcore as Literotica will allow at least), you'll find the category overall is surprisingly tolerant of everything from CNC to the mildest of reluctant or playfully coercive material...

Guilty as charged. My observations are based entirely on my own partial and anecdotal experience with this category. It's not one of my favorite categories, and I haven't sampled every possible type of story that gets published here.

I'm going to do some research on the subject.

 

[Altissimus]

As was mentioned here already, non-con is just a euphemism for rape.

I think one of the things I've tried to say and presented here is that I don't agree with this; while often true it is not exclusively so, and I've provided several scenarios where it isn't.

This is not the first thread about this category (nor the last) but over time I learned that even those among us who have a problem with rape stories have different reasons for that.

Yes; it's unavoidable, one supposes, that a topic of this nature draws in those that have 'a problem with rape', even though the topic in question isn't a rape topic at all. A nuance lost in the emotive reaction that these words provoke.

For me, it's the real-world consequences. In that previous thread, there were links to some scientific evidence that actual rapists, to put it simply, get enticed to commit rape by reading (or watching) such fantasies.

As do players of Diablo 4 go out and commit violence. Such claims are more sensationalist than scientific; while I'm not saying there isn't a connection, no such connection has irrefutably been drawn - not to mention that the positive ramifications also haven't been explored.

To be completely honest and blatant here, this is how I see a typical author of rape stories: hands over the ears, singing LA-LA-LA I write rape non-con stories and they are just a fantasy, I am doing no harm LA-LA-LA.

Hmm. I can't say I agree, for obvious reasons. While I have no desire to arouse members of our species that find the concept of violence and abuse appealing, I don't write for them and I don't write the sort of thing that suggests that. Perhaps I have brought pleasure to rapists through my work - perhaps I have brought pleasure to thieves, murderers, and even politicians.

But before we point fingers at noncon, what about LW? Incest? Fan fiction, for that matter? Little of Lit is morally conscience-clear, if you pursue this logic to its fullest conclusion.

It pisses me off because it is the same attitude that made the world a deeply unjust and ruthless place because we are just living our simple lives and we are not responsible for anything that happens out there, right? All the crap that even our own governments do all the time, we are not responsible for it - It is not like we have the power to stop it, right?

I think this becomes a valid point if you feel NC/R should be 'stopped', in which case, if that's how you feel, you should so act.

It's not how I feel. I don't share your views that a) what I write is rape (predominantly it isn't, and that which is I present quite differently), b) NC/R (or CNC as I see it, as explained herein) encourages comparable real-life behaviours, and c) that authors such as me have blinkers on and fingers in my ears... when I started this very thread to discuss some of these very points in the first place.

Sorry for getting all political there.
There is no conclusive evidence (I think?) that rape stories cause real-life harm. Yet. But there is SOME scientific evidence that points in that direction, and while it's fine to question it and demand further research before we restrict that incredibly important freedom to write sexualized rape stories, ignoring it is simply an act of an irresponsible and selfish mindset.

It could equally be argued that accepting it is simply an act of gullibly giving in to sensationalism.

I say that not to be provocative but merely to highlight the extreme points of view that can be taken on subjects that have insufficient evidence. To claim any point of view with insufficient evidence is inflammatory, and serves little purpose other than to vent one's spleen in the chosen direction of the moment.

There is no 'right' and 'wrong' on this, only 'open minded' and 'close minded'.

Regards,
A

 

[AlinaX]

I think any popular fiction site like this contributes to normalisation of tropes and consequent escalation. I generally think fiction that glorifies negative behaviours is problematic, and that sadly applies to a lot of mainstream film and television.

Can rape scenarios be erotic - yes they can, and there's definitely a problem when you start linking sexual pleasure with violence. But I do think it's possible to write erotic NC/R stories without delighting in the rapist's enjoyment of them.

That is a line I have crossed at times, and honestly I don't feel good about it.

 

[oneagainst]

I believe @oneagainst publishes CNC material for the most part, at least from what I've read of his work there's no denying that both parties in his stories are pretty into it no matter how crazy shit gets... and he's got quite high marks in the category overall. So your observation might be entirely subjective and based on the authors talent?

I wasn't going to wade any further in to this thread, but you pulled me back in, damn you @seraph_nocturne! There's R in NC/R for a really good reason. I don't write NC, I write R. There is a massive part to play with stories of reluctance and power exchange where the "victim" is actually the one driving the narrative. I find stories where they are reluctant *because* they are hesitant to discover and embrace their own desires are by far the most interesting in this category. My NC/R stories almost always have an out, via a safeword or some such thing, that would stop everything, but the victim never uses the out because they are on a journey to see how far they can go to find the thing they need (which, yeah, uh... then the crazy shit as you said).

In that light, a rape fantasy, if it's the recipient opening up to new experiences, is fascinating. If it's just turning the woman into a ragdoll for the MMC's delight (with obligatory consent get-out clause at the end) then, no, I've got other things I could be doing.

the Category on the whole can very well be classed as consensual non-consent content between authors and readers, given that it's all fantasy/fictional writing shared and received willingly between adult parties.

That's very meta, but have been debating this exact point with @John_Vandermeer elsewhere - the idea of the author as the sadist, inflicting tormented scenarios on the reader, feeding the reader's masochistic need to be horrified, made powerless or vicariously humiliated through the identification with the victim: wouldn't that be deliciously awful if that happened to me?

In NC/R more than a lot of categories, you're taking the reader on a ride that is a lot more Haunted House than Magic Teacups. As in LW, it's tapping into the little dark fear inside us all, and twisting the knife just for the fun of it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I find it interesting that several folk who have no interest in (C)NC are keen to respond to this thread, offering alternative perspectives, and I welcome that.

However, if this subject is triggering for you, may I politely ask you to stop reading now? You're capable of making your own choices, of course, but no one is forcing you to follow this in much the same way that I will check out of LW threads.

Anyway.

There's a real-world definition of rape that, strictly speaking, applies to a lot of stories on Lit (the NC/R category is far from the monopoly holder on stories of this nature, tags or no tags). But this isn't the real world, is it? We know it's fantasy, so we have a 'broader' definition of 'acceptable' - for better or for worse.

I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here.

I will happily read fiction about people getting murdered, if it's well written. I don't want people to get murdered IRL. So, yes, I am accepting of people writing about murder in a way that I am not accepting of people committing murder.

But within those stories, murder is still evil. One doesn't see Agatha Christie saying "oh this isn't really murder, it's more nonconsensual de-livening, I'm not like those sick people who enjoy reading about murder!" The way I define murder within fiction is the same way I define it in real life.

It feels like you're mixing Doylean and Watsonian perspectives here, to get the idea that in order to be accepting of reading about people committing certain kinds of rape, we have to redefine those things as not-real-rape.

CNC works the same way. In the real world, CNC is (as has been said) play-acting a NC scene where consent has been granted in advance. In the literary world - to my mind at least - it has a broader definition.

As somebody who practices CNC ethically in the real world, I'd really appreciate it if authors who wanted to write about nonconsent don't appropriate that term for writing about nonconsensual acts that real-world CNCers would consider reprehensible. I'm sure authors who can write a full-length story are capable of coming up with some other term that doesn't confuse the language.

 

[djrip]

I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here.

I will happily read fiction about people getting murdered, if it's well written. I don't want people to get murdered IRL. So, yes, I am accepting of people writing about murder in a way that I am not accepting of people committing murder.

But within those stories, murder is still evil. One doesn't see Agatha Christie saying "oh this isn't really murder, it's more nonconsensual de-livening, I'm not like those sick people who enjoy reading about murder!" The way I define murder within fiction is the same way I define it in real life.

It feels like you're mixing Doylean and Watsonian perspectives here, to get the idea that in order to be accepting of reading about people committing certain kinds of rape, we have to redefine those things as not-real-rape.



As somebody who practices CNC ethically in the real world, I'd really appreciate it if authors who wanted to write about nonconsent don't appropriate that term for writing about nonconsensual acts that real-world CNCers would consider reprehensible. I'm sure authors who can write a full-length story are capable of coming up with some other term that doesn't confuse the language.

Like "reluctance"

 

[Altissimus]

But within those stories, murder is still evil.

And so is rape. But I'm not talking about rape, haven't been talking about rape, explicitly excluded rape in my first post and yet we're all talking about rape.

Which, incidentally, is banned by Lit.

So now we have a situation where we have an entire category that covers *a gamut of* styles and content from reluctance through to non-con and evrerything in between, and Lit doesn't call it 'rape'. Here we are, on an author's forum for that self-same Lit, taking about the non-rape aspects in a category that isn't, for Lit and literary erotica purposes, regarded as rape, and yet some folk are - nudge, nudge, wink, wink - "it's still rape though, isn't it?"

Well no, it's not.

I've presented numerous examples of (C)NC that are not rape.

One doesn't see Agatha Christie saying "oh this isn't really murder, it's more nonconsensual de-livening, I'm not like those sick people who enjoy reading about murder!" The way I define murder within fiction is the same way I define it in real life.

What about manslaughter? Is that evil? What about murder-mystery parties? Evil? Euthanasia? Abortion? Fifty shades of grey.

It feels like you're mixing Doylean and Watsonian perspectives here, to get the idea that in order to be accepting of reading about people committing certain kinds of rape, we have to redefine those things as not-real-rape.

Not true, I would respectfully invite you to re-read.

As somebody who practices CNC ethically in the real world, I'd really appreciate it if authors who wanted to write about nonconsent don't appropriate that term for writing about nonconsensual acts that real-world CNCers would consider reprehensible.

I have, as I've already said, defined CNC and reluctance in direct response to your question. And, I think, pretty clearly. I haven't 'appropriated' a term (that is anyway ill-defined and arguably oxymoronic) and in the definitions I've given I can guarantee you that while there may be sensitive 'real-world CNCers' (another oxymoron) finding it 'reprehensible', there are also those engaging in such pastimes on a daily basis that... don't.

I'm sure authors who can write a full-length story are capable of coming up with some other term that doesn't confuse the language.

Show me the definition of CNC that I'm polluting? Let's ask Google.

"What Is Consensual Non-consent? Consensual non-consent (CNC) is a form of sexual activity involving behaviors like bondage and submissive and dominant traits. Though the name suggests “nonconsent,” it does not necessarily mean that the sexual interaction is sexual abuse."

Yep, that fits some of what I said...

"In a consensual non-consent, while indulging in sexual activities, both partners agree to act out their forced sexual fantasies and fetishes."

...and that fits other aspects.

But hell, I don't really care what we call what I've described so long as it's differentiated from rape.

I also note we are now *so far* from my original question that it's probably time to close the thread.

 

[mirafrida]

Every fantasy is fine unless it has direct negative consequences. ... In that previous thread, there were links to some scientific evidence that actual rapists, to put it simply, get enticed to commit rape by reading (or watching) such fantasies. There were a few who questioned the research and evidence and that is all fine by me. Nothing should be accepted without a rigorous process. But the surprising thing for me was how so many participants of that discussion simply ignored the evidence that was linked there and kept talking about something else entirely. ... There is no conclusive evidence (I think?) that rape stories cause real-life harm. Yet. But there is SOME scientific evidence that points in that direction, and while it's fine to question it and demand further research before we restrict that incredibly important freedom to write sexualized rape stories, ignoring it is simply an act of an irresponsible and selfish mindset.

I did look at the reports linked, and am not insensitive to the issue, but the strongly implied "ask" here is that I stop writing and hide my fantasy life away down deep. Maybe I should, maybe my writing is a selfish indulgence, a butterfly-wing flap causing untold harm out there in the universe. But I can't know that, and I'm ultimately rather dubious of the idea. And I like to write erotica, so instead I churn out "author's notes on the importance of consent."

Beyond the question of my personal self-expression, I think there is also a legitimate slippery slope concern. There are lots of folks out in the world who would say most or all flavors of erotica are harmful. I'm sure they'd ask each and every Literotica writer to look deep in their soul and repent of the part they'd played in corrupting society. I'm sure they'd point to scientific studies to "prove" the point. Google "scientific studies on porn" or the like and you'll see tons of stuff along these lines: https://extension.usu.edu/relationships/research/effects-of-pornography-on-relationships.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I write a lot of non-consent. Primarily, one might say.

I do not write rape. I feel what I write belongs more in the 'consensual non consent' (CNC) bracket, which might be called 'reluctance'. This is a popular fantasy for men and women alike, and a category with a great many writers and readers both.

But the fact remains that outside of Lit's rather-broad definitions (viz: not 'rape' if enjoyed by the victim; and not the primary focus of this thread), sometimes NC or CNC is rapey, and in the 'real world' (something we fortunately don't have to worry too much about) pretty much every noncon story would be illegal. 'Mind Control' also, arguably, belongs here.

So, questions for fellow authors - particularly those of us with a CNC predilection: how do you stop CNC being NC or rape? Where's your line? Do you find yourself rubbing up against it, or crossing it?

And, very much as a secondary focus: do you feel the non-con Lit rules should be refined? If so, how?

This is an emotive topic. Let's try not to get it locked faster than one started by lovecraft68, eh?

The action might be illegal, but the story isn't. They just don't let you call it erotic if you have it in the story. Mainstream, rape, incest Okie-Dokie, as long as there is enough other stuff in the story to hide it, I guess. In erotica, nope, not gonna publish it. Technically, you can have rape in an erotic story, but can't be portrayed as sexy, it can't be the main thing, and it shouldn't be dwelled on by the writer. Like cops can hunt a rapist, they can make love in the squad car and kill the rapist too. But don't kill him while he is in the process of rape. That's not allowed cause it's snuff.

 

[Altissimus]

I did look at the reports linked, and am not insensitive to the issue, but the strongly implied "ask" here is that I stop writing and hide my fantasy life away down deep. Maybe I should, maybe my writing is a selfish indulgence, a butterfly-wing flap causing untold harm out there in the universe. But I can't know that, and I'm ultimately rather dubious of the idea. And I like to write erotica, so instead I churn out "author's notes on the importance of consent."

Beyond the question of my personal self-expression, I think there is also a legitimate slippery slope concern. There are lots of folks out in the world who would say most or all flavors of erotica are harmful. I'm sure they'd ask each and every Literotica writer to look deep in their soul and repent of the part they'd played in corrupting society. I'm sure they'd point to scientific studies to "prove" the point. Google "scientific studies on porn" or the like and you'll see tons of stuff along these lines: https://extension.usu.edu/relationships/research/effects-of-pornography-on-relationships.

Time to close not only the thread but the whole of Lit then.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

 

[MillieDynamite]

The last story I published here, GOING DOWN IN THE ELEVATOR, appears to be a lesbian raping another woman. Not to give it away, the appearance of rape is wrong. It's a role-play by long-term lovers. It has popped into the 4.5 range and dropped down to 4.47 and back up and back down several times. It has two comments, both nice (no bad ones). I only just realized I haven't published here for six months. YIKES!

Anonymous
what a great twist at the end. Hope we get to hear about the next adventure.

Pappasleaze!

And

Anonymous
I loved the build-up it was not too long and I wouldn't have guessed this was a setup scenario.