Non-consent

[SimonDoom]

However, at this point I'm resigned to the fact that threads on topics such of these are simply an opportunity for those with a superior moral compass to point out how degenerate I am, and that it is unlikely that any further answers will be coming beyond the smattering of on-topic replies sparsely scattered through the rest of the noise.

I don't think that's what's going on. This is one of the more interesting and worthwhile threads I've seen here recently. Noncon might be the weirdest, most complex Lit category. I've been sampling some of the stories recently, and it's more complex than my earlier comments gave it credit for. It encompasses a very wide range of different kinds of activities and kinks. People are free to attach whatever labels they want--debates over definitions are seldom illuminating.

When people say that some of the activity you are describing is "rape," they're not making a moral judgment against your posts. It's more of a taxonomical argument than a moral one.

My own view is that confusion arises because many people in this forum continually conflate real world rules and principles with the fantasy world of Literotica.

I see CNC the way MediocreAuthor does. Two people clearly and expressly agree to role play a nonconsent scenario, like a rapist entering the woman's house. To me, that's CNC.

I spoke too soon before and without enough knowledge because after doing a bit more research I found some CNC-ish stories in Noncon.

But MOST Noncon stories at Literotica are not CNC. They're actual nonconsent, because within the scope of the story's world the character in that world does not give real consent, whether it's because the "assailant" party used force, or blackmail, or some other means of duress or coercion or something that overcame the victim's will. These aren't CNC stories. This site permits nonconsent where the victim enjoys it--that doesn't make it CNC. It's still, for all intents and purposes, rape. But by calling it that I'm not pronouncing any judgment on those who write or read such stories. I just think that's the honest way to look at it.

I realized after my last post that I have written a noncon story -- my tentacle sex story, in which the tentacle monster forces himself physically upon a woman. She enjoys it, after her initial terror, and achieves orgasm, so it passes muster under the rules here. But it's still "rape," even though the tentacle monster tells the woman that on his planet there's no such thing as rape.

 

[Altissimus]

When people say that some of the activity you are describing is "rape," they're not making a moral judgment against your posts. It's more of a taxonomical argument than a moral one.

Taxonomically I concede, morally I don't. I think that's reasonable.

My own view is that confusion arises because many people in this forum continually conflate real world rules and principles with the fantasy world of Literotica.

I agree. I think many readers do too, adding to the issue. But there'll always be someone that sees things differently.

I spoke too soon before

Equally guilty on a few occasions during this thread. It's not only an emotive subject but a very personal one, and I've probably gotten a little preachy.

This is one of the more interesting and worthwhile threads I've seen here recently.

I certainly think there's been some very interesting points raised, and well-thought-out discussion. I skimmed previous threads on noncon before starting this one, and still felt there was a question to be asked, so hopefully some new ground has been broken.

Noncon might be the weirdest, most complex Lit category.

Heh, yeah. Very possibly. And yet IMO the majority of the stories in the category are straight-up rape, with a smaller minority exploring themes around reluctance, blackmail, or associated.

This is an important differentiation for me personally (as if anyone cares), but I think @AlinaX said it best with:

AlinaX said:
Where NC/R becomes uncomfortable - and this goes for LW too - is when it feels to the reader that the author is indulging in personal fantasies of hate.

Or, to put it another way in my own words, it's all about the attitude of the author.

 

[AlinaX]

I often think about vampires.

If I were walking home one night in a safe area and suddenly a vampire grabbed me (I don't mean this as an analogy to rape, but it's of course related), plunged its teeth in my neck and drank my blood, I think I would be pretty traumatised by having pretty much everything I believed about our reality thrown into question, along with the belief that it was safe to leave the house at night.

If subsequently I met the vampire and said, "I did not consent to your drinking my blood. What you did was wrong."

Then the vampire might say, "Perhaps, but I need blood to survive, and did not take so much that I endangered your life, so was it truly wrong? If I had taken the time to explain what I am and why I needed to drink your blood, would you have consented?"

"Maybe," I might lie.

"No doubt," the vampire would say, "there are some who might consent, but the fact is that you were there and I needed you. I took what I needed, and perhaps tomorrow, perhaps in ten years time, our paths will cross and I will again take what I need, whether you consent or not. The only difference will be that you already know of my existence..."

 

[SimonDoom]

I often think about vampires.

If I were walking home one night in a safe area and suddenly a vampire grabbed me (I don't mean this as an analogy to rape, but it's of course related), plunged its teeth in my neck and drank my blood, I think I would be pretty traumatised by having pretty much everything I believed about our reality thrown into question, along with the belief that it was safe to leave the house at night.

If subsequently I met the vampire and said, "I did not consent to your drinking my blood. What you did was wrong."

Then the vampire might say, "Perhaps, but I need blood to survive, and did not take so much that I endangered your life, so was it truly wrong? If I had taken the time to explain what I am and why I needed to drink your blood, would you have consented?"

"Maybe," I might lie.

"No doubt," the vampire would say, "there are some who might consent, but the fact is that you were there and I needed you. I took what I needed, and perhaps tomorrow, perhaps in ten years time, our paths will cross and I will again take what I need, whether you consent or not. The only difference will be that you already know of my existence..."

Sounds like you've got the kernel of a good story.

 

[AchtungNight]

I do not write non-consent stories. Period. Hunters & Prey is my closest to it. The main male character gets shot with a tranquilizer dart and the main female character then talks to him excessively explaining why she shot him and making sure he can consent to their coupling before it happens. This gives the drugs time to wear off a bit. It also provides exposition. Ultimately he does consent because he has a crush on her and vice versa. But she doesn’t force the coupling on him at any point beyond the first kiss.

For bondage, make sure you use safe words. I put them in my God of War bdsm story.

Haven’t done vampires or mind control yet, but if I ever do, I will give the characters an out. No murderous vampires, override for the magic mind control, reverse hypnosis, whatever. Non consent is not my thing.

 

[AlinaX]

Vampires are a good example of taking what would be horrific in reality and spinning erotic fantasies.

 

[Altissimus]

Vampires are a good example of taking what would be horrific in reality and spinning erotic fantasies.

And werewolves... while we're busy branching noncon into other categories

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I do not write non-consent stories. Period. Hunters & Prey is my closest to it. The main male character gets shot with a tranquilizer dart and the main female character then talks to him excessively explaining why she shot him and making sure he can consent to their coupling before it happens. This gives the drugs time to wear off a bit. It also provides exposition. Ultimately he does consent because he has a crush on her and vice versa. But she doesn’t force the coupling on him at any point beyond the first kiss.

For bondage, make sure you use safe words. I put them in my God of War bdsm story.

Haven’t done vampires or mind control yet, but if I ever do, I will give the characters an out. No murderous vampires, override for the magic mind control, reverse hypnosis, whatever. Non consent is not my thing.

That's completely understandable.

Personally, sometimes I give the characters an out, and sometimes I don't.

I draw the line at physical violence/injury. It's an arbitrary line, sure... But it's mine.

In an upcoming collaborative work, a 7½ft tall Amazonian forces herself onto a 5½ft tall Viking who's stranded on her island, but she never hurts him. He's embarrassed that she's taken control, but part of him is secretly thrilled. He does not consent before they start, (they don't even speak the same language) but he quickly warms to her decisions.

If she hurt him, it wouldn't be fun. And if he didn't like it, it wouldn't be fun.

(and OBVIOUSLY if it was real, it wouldn't be fun)

 

[AlinaX]

And werewolves... while we're busy branching noncon into other categories

I guess, but I think werewolves in erotica are more a flirtation with bestiality than with non-con.

Of course, vampire tropes are all over the place, but fundamentally they do look human, and the ones I write have little patience for humanity's social niceties.

 

[MillieDynamite]

One of the tools counselors use for victims is writing. You are asked to write stories about your experience and what you could have done differently. You are also asked to write stories where you get your revenge. You're asked to write a story from the rapist's point of view. You're told to write your feelings about being raped. You are asked to write a letter to your rapist. They want you to write about the violence so that you can find healing. The act of telling a story about rape can be quite cathartic and provide healing. No one wants you to talk about your rape to them. No one wants you to burden them with what happened to you. The most common advice friends give you is just to get over it.

Writing is an outlet for all kinds of issues we have. Reading Horror stories, watching horror movies, reading rape tales, and yes, the non-humans doing terrible things to us mortals are all types of releases from our internal terrors.

 

[Altissimus]

One of the tools counselors use for victims is writing.

I'm very aware of this; a friend of mine is a counsellor who specialises in certain areas where this is a thing. While some may find this cathartic, I would be surprised if the output could be called 'erotica'.

The most common advice friends give you is just to get over it.

Helpful.

Writing is an outlet for all kinds of issues we have. Reading Horror stories, watching horror movies, reading rape tales, and yes, the non-humans doing terrible things to us mortals are all types of releases from our internal terrors.

If an author's premise is to write as an outlet for their internal terrors, I'm not sure I'd want to read the result.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'm very aware of this; a friend of mine is a counsellor who specialises in certain areas where this is a thing. While some may find this cathartic, I would be surprised if the output could be called 'erotica'.


Helpful.

If an author's premise is to write as an outlet for their internal terrors, I'm not sure I'd want to read the result.

Erotic, never said it was.

Helpful, No, it's terrible advice.

I'm not sure I'd want to read the result. Then don't read any of my horror stories. Come to think about it, don't read any of my work. I don't recall every asking you to read my work.

 

[Bramblethorn]

For bondage, make sure you use safe words. I put them in my God of War bdsm story.

Bondage doesn't always call for safewords. They can be a useful tool for managing consent in BDSM, but they're not always the best tool and they generally shouldn't be the only tool.

 

[PeytonMirabelle]

In an upcoming collaborative work, a 7½ft tall Amazonian forces herself onto a 5½ft tall Viking who's stranded on her island, but she never hurts him.

I can only hope she refers to it as "snu-snu."

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I can only hope she refers to it as "snu-snu."

We've been making the Death by Snu-snu joke constantly.

 

[CyranoJ]

Do you have examples of stories that fit this bill? Where the characters in the stories are pretending that their conduct is nonconsent? If you don't have examples, then CNC is not a real thing at Literotica. It's a type of role play people engage in in real life, ie., husband comes through the window and pretends to rape the wife. What does this have to do with Literotica stories?

As it happens, I have two stories in the category that are specifically about species of roleplay, one of which is about consensual (but still kinda fucked-up) roleplay agreed to by both parties. They're in the category b/c the sex presents enough appearance of non-con taking place that the stories would disturb or offend readers if placed anywhere else. I can see how CNC is a thing at Literotica in this sense, though I've never had the impression it was common (I'm actually interested to check now and see how many people are doing this).

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I'll tell you what type of CNC is really unpopular with fans of both NC and CNC.

Imagine a story with a mean, aggressive rapist. Perhaps he has a weapon, or perhaps he's just really rough. The victim seems legitimately afraid.

Eventually the victim enjoys themselves, until at the very end, SURPRISE!!! It was CNC all along!

Readers HATE that.

NC fans hate it because it's "fake". (basically the equivalent of the "it was all a dream" trope. And CNC fans hate it because it's too rough, and doesn't seem playful enough. I like CNC and NC/R, but I don't like that. It's the worst of both worlds, imo.

Ironically, someone who pulled this off fairly well was @NoTalentHack with Grace Restored... ALTHOUGH, to be fair, I was urged to read it by an NC fan who likes things a bit rougher than me.

I messaged my friend, "Ummm... This motherfucker has a knife!"

"Keep reading, M! I swear, you're gonna like it."

If it hadn't been recommended to me, I probably would never have finished it... I check out of NC really fucking fast when weapons come out 99.999% of the time.

When @SimonDoom said that nobody likes CNC, that's what I figured he was talking about. And yeah, that's pretty unpopular in my experience

 

[SeraphNocturne]

I messaged my friend, "Ummm... This motherfucker has a knife!"

​

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Yeah, yeah... You already know, girl. I like fantasies of taking/relinquishing control, and as a red-blooded American, I think weapons are cool.

But I don't mix the two. Nope NOPE!

 

[NoTalentHack]

I messaged my friend, "Ummm... This motherfucker has a knife!"

 

[Bramblethorn]

As it happens, I have two stories in the category that are specifically about species of roleplay, one of which is about consensual (but still kinda fucked-up) roleplay agreed to by both parties. They're in the category b/c the sex presents enough appearance of non-con taking place that the stories would disturb or offend readers if placed anywhere else. I can see how CNC is a thing at Literotica in this sense, though I've never had the impression it was common (I'm actually interested to check now and see how many people are doing this).

There are about four hundred stories in NC tagged with "cnc", "consensual nonconsent", or "consensual non-consent". So not a huge percentage of the category, but some.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

There are about four hundred stories in NC tagged with "cnc", "consensual nonconsent", or "consensual non-consent". So not a huge percentage of the category, but some.

Good CNC is super rare.

But when it's done right? -chef's kiss-

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'll tell you what type of CNC is really unpopular with fans of both NC and CNC.

Imagine a story with a mean, aggressive rapist. Perhaps he has a weapon, or perhaps he's just really rough. The victim seems legitimately afraid.

Eventually the victim enjoys themselves, until at the very end, SURPRISE!!! It was CNC all along!

Readers HATE that.

NC fans hate it because it's "fake". (basically the equivalent of the "it was all a dream" trope. And CNC fans hate it because it's too rough, and doesn't seem playful enough. I like CNC and NC/R, but I don't like that. It's the worst of both worlds, imo.

Yep. There's also a counter-trope: the one that's set up as CNC but then it turns out the masked assailant wasn't the boyfriend after all. Often with a lot of heavy-handed hinting along the way about how he sounds different and smells different and his dick is five inches longer than she remembers it etc. etc.

Fake, yes, and also it usually feels gimmicky. There's a Roger Ebert quote that I use a lot: "the director has learned from better films that directors sometimes tilt their cameras, but he has not learned why". I think a lot of novice writers see devices like twist endings, think "that was clever!" and want to emulate that cleverness in their own stories without thinking about whether it actually improves the story.

In the case of that "it was CNC all along", I wonder if some of that is authorial inhibition - people who want to write a NC story but need that CNC layer to feel okay about doing that. Before Literotica, I used to write some non-con/dubcon, but mostly for small audiences of people I knew; I've grown less and less comfortable with the idea of sharing that kind of thing with thousands of anons. I'm more comfortable with presenting it as fiction-within-fiction, packaging a NC scenario as something acted out by people who've been established as consenting. Like putting gloves on before handling dangerous substances.

Good CNC is super rare.

But when it's done right? -chef's kiss-

Uh huh. I think part of my problem with Twist Ending CNC is that a lot of my interest in CNC stories is in how the "C" and the "NC" layers contrast and interact. The top who's simultaneously thinking "I'm going to get off on hurting you" and "your well-being is my responsibility", the bottom begging for mercy that they don't want to receive, all that weird human contradiction, love that. But Twist Ending can't explore that because it's committed to keeping the "C" layer invisible until the very end.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Yep. There's also a counter-trope: the one that's set up as CNC but then it turns out the masked assailant wasn't the boyfriend after all. Often with a lot of heavy-handed hinting along the way about how he sounds different and smells different and his dick is five inches longer than she remembers it etc. etc.

Fake, yes, and also it usually feels gimmicky. There's a Roger Ebert quote that I use a lot: "the director has learned from better films that directors sometimes tilt their cameras, but he has not learned why". I think a lot of novice writers see devices like twist endings, think "that was clever!" and want to emulate that cleverness in their own stories without thinking about whether it actually improves the story.

I have two inversions of this trope planned; one I mentioned earlier in the thread, where the boyfriend actually is the "rapist," but he has gone SO overboard that she's thoroughly convinced it's not him, and what was supposed to be a fun time instead turns to terrifying, and then them dealing with the aftermath of that.

The other one, though, is a sexually inexperienced but very sweet boyfriend who's incredibly bad at it. He leaves the house with an incredibly sketchy reason, comes back about five minutes later dressed almost like a cartoon burglar, his "accent" makes him sound like Foghorn Leghorn, etc. And the much more experienced girlfriend is like "oh God, this is going to be like when I had to teach him to eat pussy." But then she remembers how good he got at that and everything else she's asked him to do, and it turns into this thing where she encourages him subtly, making him feel comfortable with what he's doing, etc. At the end, when he asks how it was for her, the response is, "So, I have some notes."

 

[Bramblethorn]

I have two inversions of this trope planned; one I mentioned earlier in the thread, where the boyfriend actually is the "rapist," but he has gone SO overboard that she's thoroughly convinced it's not him, and what was supposed to be a fun time instead turns to terrifying, and then them dealing with the aftermath of that.

The other one, though, is a sexually inexperienced but very sweet boyfriend who's incredibly bad at it. He leaves the house with an incredibly sketchy reason, comes back about five minutes later dressed almost like a cartoon burglar, his "accent" makes him sound like Foghorn Leghorn, etc. And the much more experienced girlfriend is like "oh God, this is going to be like when I had to teach him to eat pussy." But then she remembers how good he got at that and everything else she's asked him to do, and it turns into this thing where she encourages him subtly, making him feel comfortable with what he's doing, etc. At the end, when he asks how it was for her, the response is, "So, I have some notes."

Those both sound like interesting concepts. I'd love to see more stories about dom/mes being fallible and not mind-readers who always know exactly what the sub really needs.