Non-consent

[NoTalentHack]

Those both sound like interesting concepts. I'd love to see more stories about dom/mes being fallible and not mind-readers who always know exactly what the sub really needs.

If you haven't already, you should check out Forever Bound, my married couple love story about a reluctant dom husband and his enthusiastic sub wife. It's tongue-in-cheek in places, but also talks about how hard that mix can be. It's one of my earliest things, so it's a little rough in places, but I still like it.

 

[ananom]

I pondered that for my first story. I wrote it first and then read the guidelines, and then had to figure out if it was OK. I think it is. The girl is apprently not enjoying the sex, but if every unenjoyable sex act is rape then there are a lot of rapists walking around free. She is definitively and explicitly consenting -- the question is why she is consenting. And from the POV of my narrator, he doesn't know. There could be a lot of reasons. Some of them are iffy -- maybe she is being blackmailed or threatened. Some of them are more legitimate -- she's keeping a promise, or choosing to punish herself, or proving a point. All of these make sense in the context of the story.

 

[Bramblethorn]

If you haven't already, you should check out Forever Bound, my married couple love story about a reluctant dom husband and his enthusiastic sub wife. It's tongue-in-cheek in places, but also talks about how hard that mix can be. It's one of my earliest things, so it's a little rough in places, but I still like it.

Thanks for pointing me at that! I did enjoy that story, without necessarily agreeing with the characters' choices.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Those both sound like interesting concepts. I'd love to see more stories about dom/mes being fallible and not mind-readers who always know exactly what the sub really needs.

You know, I just now remembered that you said this, and I never recommended Asked and Answered.

It's BDSM which isn't a genre that I've read much of, but that one is a super sweet tale of a loving married couple. He is a sub, and she is only trying to make him happy as his dom, but she has no idea what to do.

I've gone on the record several times saying that this story "Made my so soul horny" but the truth is that I love the dynamic between this couple far more than just the sex alone.

(FWI, this is the third installment in the series. I accidentally skipped the first, and then a prequel got added... I really need to go read those. LOL)

 

[yowser]

I've gone on the record several times saying that this story "Made my so soul horny" but the truth is that I love the dynamic between this couple far more than just the sex alone.

This reminded me of a quote from David Foster Wallace (so then I had to look it up) but he was quoting an unnamed friend, so effectively anonymous:

"a friend of mine read it and said it gave him an erection of the heart."

 

[MediocreAuthor]

This reminded me of a quote from David Foster Wallace (so then I had to look it up) but he was quoting an unnamed friend, so effectively anonymous:

"a friend of mine read it and said it gave him an erection of the heart."

My heart doesn't get erections, fortunately... but I follow the sentiment. Lol

 

[lc69hunter]

I write a lot of non-consent. Primarily, one might say.

I do not write rape. I feel what I write belongs more in the 'consensual non consent' (CNC) bracket, which might be called 'reluctance'. This is a popular fantasy for men and women alike, and a category with a great many writers and readers both.

But the fact remains that outside of Lit's rather-broad definitions (viz: not 'rape' if enjoyed by the victim; and not the primary focus of this thread), sometimes NC or CNC is rapey, and in the 'real world' (something we fortunately don't have to worry too much about) pretty much every noncon story would be illegal. 'Mind Control' also, arguably, belongs here.

So, questions for fellow authors - particularly those of us with a CNC predilection: how do you stop CNC being NC or rape? Where's your line? Do you find yourself rubbing up against it, or crossing it?

And, very much as a secondary focus: do you feel the non-con Lit rules should be refined? If so, how?

This is an emotive topic. Let's try not to get it locked faster than one started by lovecraft68, eh?

This is a conversation that I am unable to contribute to, as that is a story category I have never opened, and have never deliberately read a story in that category. I am all about loving and consensual. But I will read the comments, as I am curious.

 

[MillieDynamite]

You'd have hardening of the arteries if it did.

My heart doesn't get erections, fortunately... but I follow the sentiment. Lol

 

[MediocreAuthor]

There is no such thing as consent non consent....
Either it's consensual or it's not....
Non consent is rape.....
There are no clearer boundaries... Yes or no....
Rape is a crime...

Consensual non-consent is an actual thing. Look at my earlier comment defining terms:

CNC (consensual non-consent): A game two lovers agree on, i.e. "pretend rape" (regardless of whether it's in a story or real life).

 

[MillieDynamite]

I've been raped, and I object far more to stories where the victim likes being raped than those which have a realistic portal of what rape is. It isn't erotic or erotica. It is a perfect subject for the Crime and Punishment Event. But if we must have the victim enjoying it, I'd refer you to my story, Going Down in the Elevator. This story perfectly fits the rules of the site, has in excess of 11K downloads, carries a 4.49 ranking, and has garnered 13 hearts. There are only three comments, but none are negative.

Before warned, their be lesbians in it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Consensual non-consent is an actual thing. Look at my earlier comment defining terms:

I agree with you, but the problem is that many people define "consensual nonconsent" differently, to include a range of activities that are NOT, in fact, consensual in any meaningful way. I think they do this because they don't want to face the fact that they actually want to enjoy fantasies about nonconsent. People try to justify their fantasies on the ground that they're "really" "consensual nonconsent." But they aren't.

I think they'd be better off just acknowledging that people don't have to defend their fantasies. Fantasies are fantasies. If you like nonconsent stories, just admit it. The moral issues are completely different from those in the real world, where parties involved must be very careful to be sure that real consent is given. Nobody has any obligation whatsoever to ensure that something happens in their mind in fantasy stories. You are free to let your fantasies run wild without risk of criminal punishment.

For example:

"Reluctance" is not "consensual nonconsent." To qualify as "consensual nonconsent," the consent must be clear. E.g., a wife clearly and unequivocally consent to her husband entering through a window and pretending to be a rapist and then having sex with her. Consent in that case is clear. That's CNC.

"Reluctance" is totally different. The whole point of reluctance stories is that the giving of consent is ambiguous. That's where the thrill comes from. A man approaches a woman and talks her into having sex, but she initially says no and by the time the sex happens it may not be totally clear when and how consent is given. Reasonable people may observe the interaction and disagree and whether it was.

Blackmail stories don't involve "rape" in the way we usually think of rape, but consent given under duress or threat is not true consent, so morally and legally it may be rape, even if the victim at some point or ultimately enjoys it. There is no true "consent" in these stories.

Stories where women are kidnapped and enslaved into a sex trade, but find that they love it and become nymphomaniacs, do not involve true consent. The initial enslavement is nonconsensual, regardless of what happens later.

The only "true" type of "consensual nonconsent" story in my mind would be a story in which the characters in the story clearly manifest consent to conduct that subsequently occurs in the story, like rape play. Some people may find that erotic, but stories of this sort are in the minority in the Nonconsent category at Literotica, and they are not at all what Literotica means when it says it accepts stories involving nonconsent where the victim ultimately enjoys the activity.

I don't agree with Altissimuss's characterization of his stories as involving consensual nonconsent. Consider his story A Very Big Mistake Pt. 1. This is not a consensual nonconsent story. It starts out with a wife seeming, maybe or maybe not, depending on how you look at it, to give consent to a Dom/sub encounter to a strange man brought to her by her husband, but it becomes something different. I won't give away the surprise in the story, but since there IS a surprise it vitiates any consent one might initially think was given. It clearly involves unethical and illegal nonconsensual activity. There's nothing "consensual" about it. It's COMPLETELY different from a consent/nonconsent story where the woman upfront clearly and unequivocally consents to the activity that follows. That's not a criticism. The story is a well-told example of the kind of story it is, and it received numerous positive comments. But it's definitely NOT "consensual nonconsent."

 

[MillieDynamite]

The real BDSM world has a lot of issues on Consent. The established safe word to stop the encounter can be ignored by an unscrupulous dom. And often, men or women use the BDSM encounters to abuse people. I can't tell you how many former subs have told me what a snake pit that game can be.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Well, I'm gonna sign off for now. It's been real, and it's been fun, but it hasn't been real fun. TTFN

 

[CyranoJ]

I was pleasantly surprised at how long this thread went without attracting some pseudo-moralistic peacocking, but I knew it couldn't last.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

I don't believe in or participate in group sex, cheating, having a husband watch his wife fuck someone else. But I write about it. If I write about rape, and I have one story here that is rape, I don't glamorize it. It's about a pimp breaking a woman for her work. It's a story. It isn't meant as a sexy story, but a this can and does happen tale.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

The fact--and it is a fact--is that many women, and probably men, too, fantasize about rape in an erotic way without ever wanting it actually to happen to them in the real world, or wanting to engage in it in the real world. I don't see how this is normalizing or glamorizing anything.


It is more likely A lot of men, and a few women fantasise about it...
Seeing as how (Sorry I don't know the actual figures) 80% of the people raped are women...

You glamorise it by making it appealing. By making it erotic. By making it seem harmless.
The same way tobacco companies promoted smoking...Say it often enough, and loud enough and it becomes fact...

Cagivagurl

There is actually no way to know how many men or women are raped. Men rarely report rape when a man rapes them, and almost never if a woman does. Women likewise only report a fraction of the time when they are raped by a man. When a woman is forced by a woman, I'm pretty certain, that always goes unreported.

But fantasy and fiction aren't the real world. The way rape is portrayed, for the most part, here is wrong. But it can't be portrayed unless it's shown as something enjoyable. Millie didn't cover the rape in her entry to Crime and Punishment. She cut it off and said what followed was horrible or something to that effect.

But in fiction, in a free society, you really can't regulate what is covered. If it is eroticized, you can control that and keep it from being sold at Amazon or SW. They don't let it be anything but fun on here. I don't believe in censorship. Not because of my religion, but because of freedom, because we have a 1st amendment. Because people have the right to think, say, read, and write what they want to.

 

[Cagivagurl]

But there is a difference, @SimonDoom
Sexualized rape is allowed here, while sexualized murder isn't. There is a clear distinction.
That being said, I do think your energy is somewhat misplaced, @Cagivagurl
I also dislike rape stories very much, not the role-play ones, but the ones that contain real rape, but I don't think any author here should be called out for writing the fantasies they are allowed to publish here. Your beef should be with the website, not with your fellow authors, in my opinion.

I am not kink shaming, or attacking anyone. The site, or the authors.
We are who wee are.
All I am doing is stating my opinion. It is worth no more than anyone else's.
As far as kink shaming goes.... What goes on in somebodies mind, is their business.
My energy.... Is, and always will be behind fighting rape and sexual assault in all it's forms.

Cagivagurl

 

[Bramblethorn]

You know, I just now remembered that you said this, and I never recommended Asked and Answered.

It's BDSM which isn't a genre that I've read much of, but that one is a super sweet tale of a loving married couple. He is a sub, and she is only trying to make him happy as his dom, but she has no idea what to do.

I've gone on the record several times saying that this story "Made my so soul horny" but the truth is that I love the dynamic between this couple far more than just the sex alone.

(FWI, this is the third installment in the series. I accidentally skipped the first, and then a prequel got added... I really need to go read those. LOL)

Thanks, I'd read and enjoyed the first some time ago, but not this one. That's the kind of thing I like in BDSM stories - doesn't have to be that specific dynamic, but people thinking about whatever their dynamic is, and negotiating it.

 

[alohadave]

You know, I just now remembered that you said this, and I never recommended Asked and Answered.

It's BDSM which isn't a genre that I've read much of, but that one is a super sweet tale of a loving married couple. He is a sub, and she is only trying to make him happy as his dom, but she has no idea what to do.

I've gone on the record several times saying that this story "Made my so soul horny" but the truth is that I love the dynamic between this couple far more than just the sex alone.

(FWI, this is the third installment in the series. I accidentally skipped the first, and then a prequel got added... I really need to go read those. LOL)

Thanks for the recommendation. BDSM isn't really my thing, but @joy_of_cooking nailed this story. I don't want to gush, but it hit all the right notes with their communication.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Thanks for the recommendation. BDSM isn't really my thing, but @joy_of_cooking nailed this story. I don't want to gush, but it hit all the right notes with their communication.

Wasn't it fantastic?!

(BDSM isn't my thing either!)

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Game playing is not non consent... It is consensual...

I agree 100%.

Consenting adults playing a game is consensual.

Agree again 100%.

It is wrong IMO to emdorse or promote non concensual activities...

I do not believe that a work of fiction depicting rape necessarily endorses nor promotes rape. Just like movies about heroin abuse do not necessarily promote heroin abuse. Neither do war movies nor holocaust movies necessarily promote war nor the holocaust. In fact most holocaust movies go out of their way to condemn the holocaust and they do so with a bleak portrayal of the realities of the atrocity which gives the viewer the choice of how they will react to such atrocity.

People have been harmed, suffered enormous traumatic experiences living through rape...
It is not an erotic fun experience. It is a brutal attack on another human being....It should be abhorred not be glamorised.

In a sense I am with you on this but not completely. I agree in the sense that I think that it is foolish and horribly ironic that the site has a 'rape is bad' policy and in this regard they only allow nice happy ending rape. I think that's fucking stupid. However fiction is fiction and all fiction like any work of art is really a rorschach blot. Everyone sees different things in it and the author ultimately has no control over that. You can watch Gene Siskel lambaste a movie that he feels is laughably bad, and then Roger Ebert argue with him that it's great comedy, a deliberate parody of its genre. Exact same movie, two completely different takes.

One person can read your rape scene as glamorizing the crime, yet the next person can see it as the stark portrait of fear and shame that society needs to see.

If you want to start banning authors for the interpretations of their audiences you are doing society a great disservice and history has proven that time and time again.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Thank you both, @MediocreAuthor and @alohadave . Your checks will be in the mail shortly. :-D

 

[Bramblethorn]

There is actually no way to know how many men or women are raped. Men rarely report rape when a man rapes them, and almost never if a woman does. Women likewise only report a fraction of the time when they are raped by a man. When a woman is forced by a woman, I'm pretty certain, that always goes unreported.

FWIW, the best estimates for this kind of thing aren't based on police reports. A more accurate approach is to run a "victims of crime" survey - randomly select a bunch of people and get a very sympathetic interviewer to talk to them about their experiences under guarantees of confidentiality. It's still hard to do and by no means perfect, but a lot of people who won't report to police are willing to disclose to a good interviewer.

Based on that approach, the latest Australian figures are that about 22% of women and 6% of men had experienced sexual assault since age 15, which is pretty close to that 80/20.

Once a person has witnessed a loved one viciously and brutally murdered. Do you think they watch movies that glamorise murder???

Some don't, some do. Different people process trauma in different ways.

I recall an interview with a writer who'd been sexually abused, and who wrote several fanfic stories involving sexual abuse - by my understanding, as a way of coming to terms with her own experiences. When she had a hit with her first pro novel (which doesn't contain that theme), people dug up her earlier work and concluded that she must be a pedophile herself, something which pushed her pretty close to suicide. I have dated sexual assault survivors who were into writing NC erotica and/or being on the receiving end of NC play.

It's not hard to understand why a lot of sexual assault survivors would find it repellent even in fiction, even as a roleplay between consenting adults, and I support making it easy for those people to avoid encountering such material. But when that turns into "anybody who engages in that roleplay/kink is glamorising rape", then they're just adding to the trauma of fellow survivors. That's not a good thing to do.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

What the hell?! Why was my post deleted? You can see the post being quoted in the post #120 but it is not there anymore. What was it in my post that was breaking the rules??

 

[Altissimus]

What the hell?! Why was my post deleted? You can see the post being quoted in the post #120 but it is not there anymore. What was it in my post that was breaking the rules??

That is very weird. I see nothing wrong with your original post.

I got banned from Twitter for suggesting that Elon Musk was a dick for selling flamethrowers to Americans in 2018... then got banned when he bought Twitter. I assumed it was just so he could pick on me. Lost all 9 of the tweets I'd made with my account.

So perhaps the problem was: "Your beef should be with the website, not with your fellow authors, in my opinion"?

Most controversial thing I can see you said. Be interesting to hear the Mod's reason.