NonCon related question

[litmlove]

You don;t seem to grasp the difference between rape and rapist fantasies..

Interesting. I don't like rape erotica so there is that.


The other part of the category is reluctance. I haven't read much of it but I believe that at the heart of a reluctance story: the "victim" is given a choice of sex and something bad. This is erotica - so the victim chooses sex (implicit or explicit choice)

Whether the victim enjoys the sex depends on if the victim is "participating" or is "passive". Thus it is possible the "victim" agrees, enjoy it, and is disgusted - or - the "victim" agrees, does not enjoy, and is understanding of the perpetrator.

Does that sound correct?

 

[Hypoxia]

Do not forget: Rape is a violent crime. Rape is about power, not sex. The report of the rapist killing his victim because she subverted his power game illustrates this.

Do people fantasize about committing crimes? Certainly. Do people fantasize about crimes committed against them? Yes again. Do people sexualize their fantasies, whether violent-criminal or otherwise? Obviously. As long as people harbor such fantasies, a market will exist for stories of such fantasies.

Which doesn't mean that I want to feed a market demanding sexualized violence. Incest (another controversy here) is not my fantasy, but I get a good response from incest stories, and it doesn't repulse me. Some readers may be turned on by tales of inflicting or receiving violence. Such violence DOES repulse me.

I have a guideline:

* Non-erotic: Sex is incidental to the story.
* Erotic: Sex is integral to the story.
* Pr0n: Sex IS the story.

Replace 'sex' with 'rape' or 'violence' and we have a definition of rape pr0n. (Or food pr0n, defecation pr0n, motor pr0n -- many other pr0ns, innocent or otherwise.)

Another guideline: Without the sex scenes, would there be a story? If not, it's a stroker. Again, substitute violence or rape. I don't think I could stomach a rape stroker. I'd prefer a food stroker.

I've seen mention of rape/noncon stories being about control, not necessarily raw violence. Fantasies of controlling and/or being controlled, but without physical pain or damage -- are these easier to digest? Do they qualitatively differ from rape / violence pr0n? If the victim is written to ENJOY rape-violence-pain-damage, is this an acceptable fantasy? To whom?

Let's go further. Does the pr0n sexualize what would otherwise be non-sexual pr0n? And, does sexualization make the pr0n more or less acceptable? Which is better/worse, morally: sexualized or non-sexualized violence? Better or worse: inflicting or receiving any violence? Why? And if it was food pr0n or defecation pr0n, would sexualization make it better or worse?

Sorry for rambling here. Just trying to mentally process some of these thought crimes. I guess I'm setting up a classification-vs-values decision table -- that's the old software-analyst ME shining through, figuring out where to draw the line, and why. Where do YOU draw the line?

PS: I wrote a story about a woman who got off on sex with brain-damaged partners. In the finale, she considered trephination herself, drilling a hole in her head. No non-con; no violence was inflicted on or by anyone in the story; but Laurel rejected it (more than once) as violence pr0n. Go figure.

 

[VenusButterflies]

I see your point in regards to the part in boldface, although I'm still scratching my head over the pleasure part.

If we have a story from an aggressor's POV, in which the aggressor has no regard for whether their victim enjoys the act... that's not quite the same thing as the aggressor getting off on the victim not enjoying it. I realize I'm splitting hairs here, but LC gave an extreme example. I've never read anything like it in Lit's Noncon category.

By pleasure I meant in reference to the orgasm. In LC's example, when the woman played along and faked an orgasm, the aggressor killed her. In the story here, the aggressor wanted to see the semblance of pleasure in his victim.

 

[allamagione]

By pleasure I meant in reference to the orgasm. In LC's example, when the woman played along and faked an orgasm, the aggressor killed her. In the story here, the aggressor wanted to see the semblance of pleasure in his victim.

Right, they're in direct opposition. What I was trying to figure out was if I'd ever seen anything in the middle.

And now that I think about it... I don't know if I've ever read a story on Lit, from the aggressor's POV, in which he has no regard for his victim's pleasure. The aggressor usually wants the victim to feel pleasure, if only to underscore her humiliation. Even if he, say, forbids her to come, his taunting usually implies that he wants that to be a daunting task for her because his cock is that awesome.

The key here is "from the aggressor's POV." The censors seem to be more lenient about the pleasure requirement when the story is told from the victim's POV.

 

[DirtyAllie]

@ Lovecraft68

This post is more in reference to things you said in your "but lit does not allow rape stories thread" but I have no desire to bump that thread.

I logged on to this pm a few minutes ago.

would you roleplay as a married milf for gangbang for me and my and friends in ghetto?! Alex 27 m ohio nasty perv and I am into detailed plays on yahoo.

No correspondence with this poster, this was his introduction to me. I replied "Not even a Hi? This is how you introduce yourself, can me and my friends gang bang you? And I told him where to go.

This was what I just got back.

oh look its mother teresa talkin! whom the fuck are you kidding you dirty cunt?! why the fuck else are you here?! for bible study?! why the fuck do you need a hi?! are you sitting in production meeting in the office. you are no good whore and you don't deserve any fucking pleasantaries. wake up from that dream Cinderella cunt. Its not 'can i ganbang you'.. its 'get to your business and only thing you are worthy of you cunt!' you know what.. you just established you are a fuckin hypocrite and hypocrites belong to my iggy bin so off you go cry to your daddy rotten cunt!

because I am a woman on this site I am a dirty whore and should be used like one.

"get to your business and only thing you are worthy of you cunt."

Would anyone like to reopen the discussion of the treatment of women on this site? At least outside of the writers forums where the guys are not generally looking for cyber pussy?

No culture of misogyny here, no, not at all.

 

[lovecraft68]

Gangbang milf? Sounds more like he walked out of the LW category.

Another one of lits real men make themselves known.

 

[Vanadorn]

Please don't assume that that brush should be used to tar all the men here; although that example posted is pretty fucking grim.

As one of them, please accept my apology for the way you were just cyber-treated. No one should have to put up with that layer of crap.

There are plenty of GGG guys out there and here with some respect and manners.

-V

 

[sr71plt]

Please don't assume that that brush should be used to tar all the men here; although that example posted is pretty fucking grim.

As one of them, please accept my apology for the way yer were just cyber-treated. No one should have to put up with that layer of crap.

There are plenty of GGG guys out there and here with some respect and manners.

-V

True. There's a huge range of Literotica users. You get all kinds. Should see some of the PMs a GM author here gets.

 

[lovecraft68]

Please don't assume that that brush should be used to tar all the men here; although that example posted is pretty fucking grim.

As one of them, please accept my apology for the way you were just cyber-treated. No one should have to put up with that layer of crap.

There are plenty of GGG guys out there and here with some respect and manners.

-V

Of course not all, but like everything else, they are the loudest.

I...personally have low opinions of men, which is why many have confused me with a woman because a certain type of man cannot possibly see how a man can have anything but contempt for a woman and take their side.

But this is a porn site and I think in many forums and to a fair portion-trust me not just a few- pf men here any woman here should be screaming "use me"

The fact that person did not so much as introduce themselves or chat a little first then came across with that little outburst when told see you later backs that up.

I always think of a female friend of mine who whenever someone would talk like that she would point at them and say "who raised you to speak to people like that? Or did anyone raise you?"

There is no need to be that hateful over something so stupid. That instant nastiness is very indicative of that person.

And of course I would be remiss If I did not add that I doubt mister smooth would be so nasty if he was face to face with someone.

 

[lovecraft68]

True. There's a huge range of Literotica users. You get all kinds. Should see some of the PMs a GM author here gets.

Do you get a lot of "you fucking queers" ignorance?

Serious question.....do you get cock pics?

A lot of reader side thinks I am female (the little glamor shot logo at the top of my homepage is most likely the reason) and I get a lot of them.

I see an attachment open it and Hello! Then I get, "Oh, honey your stories make me so hot, you must be so hot! How about a picture?

I'd send the one, but I think they would be disappointing.

 

[sr71plt]

I've gotten a few (over quite a few years) queer hate mail PMs. Not many, but the ones I've received are as rabid as the one DirtyAllie got (which, no mistake, is a really, really sick one--but, given the Web site, to be expected). I get quite a few cock and muscle shots (which have inspired a few stories here) and even more propositions--as recently as yesterday (some from guys--I presume--pretty closely knowing where I live and ready to meet in the next half hour). To these, I note that they are about 40 years too late (definitely 3 years too late, in the best of circumstances). I try to be polite to these (sometimes with regret that the mail was so late in arriving) and just don't respond to the hate mail.

On the whole noncon question, the rape fantasy is, I think, a widespread and natural fantasy for both straights and gays alike. Probably more prevalent for gays, who harbor the guilt society has laid on them and welcome the sex emotions more if the guilt of consent can be mitigated. It's definitely a role-playing approach in real sex. I don't see the problem in presenting a story from the "victim's" ultimate realization of expectation under the surface of the action from a satisfying a rapist's need for power validation.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've gotten a few (over quite a few years) queer hate mail PMs. Not many, but the ones I've received are as rabid as the one DirtyAllie got (which, no mistake, is a really, really sick one--but, given the Web site, to be expected). I get quite a few cock and muscle shots (which have inspired a few stories here) and even more propositions--as recently as yesterday (some from guys--I presume--pretty closely knowing where I live and ready to meet in the next half hour). To these, I note that they are about 40 years too late (definitely 3 years too late, in the best of circumstances). I try to be polite to these (sometimes with regret that the mail was so late in arriving) and just don't respond to the hate mail.

I didn't think of "muscle shots" I remember my wife getting a pic from guy and going goddamn. I walked over and looked and said "Goddamn!" I'm straight but having been a gym rat most of my life I can appreciate the male form to a degree and the work it takes to be that....damn. I've never reached damn, I've maybe gotten to "Hmmm"

You have me curious, if you feel like answering whats with the three years too late? Lifestyle change?

I get a lot of hate from the incest stories ironically all from people who seem to have enough details to have read the story, but then tell me how sick incest is. Most of the hate came from my two LW stories, but was to be expected as I know I was writing against one of their biggest factions.

I ignore all that and take none of it to heart, but sometimes I do find the amount of sheer malice in them disturbing. I do not understand that much hate from a fictional story.

 

[sr71plt]

You have me curious, if you feel like answering whats with the three years too late? Lifestyle change?

I haven't been actively bisexual for three years (closer to four now, I guess). I have a story posted here on the lead up to that: http://www.literotica.com/s/uncertain-arrival

From the time I left the Middle East in the 90s until three years ago, I had an "arrangement" where an academic mentor of mine sent young, male students to me to mentor at the university here in exchange for favors. The referenced story is on the arrival of the last one--within a few years of that, I came to grips with being too old and falling apart for this. I have a few other stories here on the mental processes/emotions that go with realizing such a thing and just hanging that aspect of one's life up. (But then, just today, I got a comment on one of my stories that I can't write the emotional angle of any of this. )

 

[lovecraft68]

I haven't been actively bisexual for three years (closer to four now, I guess). I have a story posted here on the lead up to that: http://www.literotica.com/s/uncertain-arrival

From the time I left the Middle East in the 90s until three years ago, I had an "arrangement" where an academic mentor of mine sent young, male students to me to mentor at the university here in exchange for favors. The referenced story is on the arrival of the last one--within a few years of that, I came to grips with being too old and falling apart for this. I have a few other stories here on the mental processes/emotions that go with realizing such a thing and just hanging that aspect of one's life up. (But then, just today, I got a comment on one of my stories that I can't write the emotional angle of any of this. )

Getting olds a bitch.

I'm 46 and coming to terms with the body changing. I was always a work out junkie along with Martial arts and probably worked out to the point of obsession which was the product of way too much nervous energy and excess angst.

My body held up well and I ignored the trainers and the "its time to start cutting back etc...."

last two years the score card reads Surgery to repair a torn left bicep, surgery to fix two bulging discs in my neck(got a cool scar on my throat as they go through the front) and I have had both shoulders scoped for scar tissue.

Fortunately it hasn't hit me in the bedroom yet, but I also live a different lifestyle sexually then 15 years ago so maybe it would have.

Hey at least it gives you story fodder and you have memories, some people never even get those.

 

[callmeismael]

Question for the women; is it plausible that a particular female character's appeal of the rape fantasy is not so much in the power dynamic, and not in any sadism/masochism dynamic, but in the idea of a partner pushed beyond all limits of self-control, where their lust overrides everything?

As a male, the idea of a (female) partner pushed to a point where they simply aren't going to take no for an answer is very hot, assuming it's a partner who I want to have sex with in the first place. But this strikes me as a much safer fantasy then with the roles reversed. Much of the female POV rape fantasy I've read on here seems to focus on the power loss or on physical pleasure (or pain), which I can understand but is less fitting for my character.

I have a scene planned, in which a woman who carries some rape fantasies meets a man who she believes has that potential. She is entirely willing before, during and after sex. But she never verbalizes that consent. And infact she briefly protests during, because she wants to know that he is pushed beyond any point of self-control.
Now, I can't decide if this is rape or not; from the female's point of view, she got what she wanted; but from the male's point of view, he continued after she told him to stop, and he had no reason to suspect that she actually did want him to continue. I'm not sure it actually matters whether it fits any technical version of rape or not; it's an important, plot-driven scene in my story. But I can't decide how willing I am to plunge into her enjoyment of the encounter. In the moment, she's feeling a little empowered by it: that after a history of relatively passive partners, she's provoked such a strong response in anyone. Of course, there's a bit of fear and loss of physical power involved as well. What do others think; pausible within a female fantasy perspective?

 

[lovecraft68]

Question for the women; is it plausible that a particular female character's appeal of the rape fantasy is not so much in the power dynamic, and not in any sadism/masochism dynamic, but in the idea of a partner pushed beyond all limits of self-control, where their lust overrides everything?

As a male, the idea of a (female) partner pushed to a point where they simply aren't going to take no for an answer is very hot, assuming it's a partner who I want to have sex with in the first place. But this strikes me as a much safer fantasy then with the roles reversed. Much of the female POV rape fantasy I've read on here seems to focus on the power loss or on physical pleasure (or pain), which I can understand but is less fitting for my character.

I have a scene planned, in which a woman who carries some rape fantasies meets a man who she believes has that potential. She is entirely willing before, during and after sex. But she never verbalizes that consent. And infact she briefly protests during, because she wants to know that he is pushed beyond any point of self-control.
Now, I can't decide if this is rape or not; from the female's point of view, she got what she wanted; but from the male's point of view, he continued after she told him to stop, and he had no reason to suspect that she actually did want him to continue. I'm not sure it actually matters whether it fits any technical version of rape or not; it's an important, plot-driven scene in my story. But I can't decide how willing I am to plunge into her enjoyment of the encounter. In the moment, she's feeling a little empowered by it: that after a history of relatively passive partners, she's provoked such a strong response in anyone. Of course, there's a bit of fear and loss of physical power involved as well. What do others think; pausible within a female fantasy perspective?

In your example its not rape at all, this woman was looking for exactly what he gave her. In a way she is in control in the way that believe it or not a sub can be dictating what their master is doing to them. (remember the sub has limits in a true d/s relationship and they are established and agreed not to be crossed the sub is far from as powerless as some people think)

Now if your question is the guy did not know that so is it rape from his POV? If there was minimal resistance I would say he would not think so. It would just fall under "damn rough sex"

My take anyway. But your way fits lits "alleged rule" at least.

 

[VenusButterflies]

Question for the women; is it plausible that a particular female character's appeal of the rape fantasy is not so much in the power dynamic, and not in any sadism/masochism dynamic, but in the idea of a partner pushed beyond all limits of self-control, where their lust overrides everything?

As a male, the idea of a (female) partner pushed to a point where they simply aren't going to take no for an answer is very hot, assuming it's a partner who I want to have sex with in the first place. But this strikes me as a much safer fantasy then with the roles reversed. Much of the female POV rape fantasy I've read on here seems to focus on the power loss or on physical pleasure (or pain), which I can understand but is less fitting for my character.

I have a scene planned, in which a woman who carries some rape fantasies meets a man who she believes has that potential. She is entirely willing before, during and after sex. But she never verbalizes that consent. And infact she briefly protests during, because she wants to know that he is pushed beyond any point of self-control.
Now, I can't decide if this is rape or not; from the female's point of view, she got what she wanted; but from the male's point of view, he continued after she told him to stop, and he had no reason to suspect that she actually did want him to continue. I'm not sure it actually matters whether it fits any technical version of rape or not; it's an important, plot-driven scene in my story. But I can't decide how willing I am to plunge into her enjoyment of the encounter. In the moment, she's feeling a little empowered by it: that after a history of relatively passive partners, she's provoked such a strong response in anyone. Of course, there's a bit of fear and loss of physical power involved as well. What do others think; pausible within a female fantasy perspective?

Wait- why wouldn't you plunge into her enjoyment of the whole encounter? Isn't that the point, and what she's seeking?

 

[sr71plt]

I do think that the impression of the Literotica forum that a few have alluded to here--hundreds of "seeking" men revolving around whatever women are posting here and looking for openings-- is true. I've been watching the Story Feedback forum with interest this morning. A claimed female poster looking for a male co-author--and not even asking on the right forum for that--and already she has four offers. Maybe that's how authors here should pick up editors--claiming to be a woman in need and looking for a male editor to "work" with her.

 

[lovecraft68]

Where it sticks me I think is as I just mentioned "rough sex" there are a lot of women in r/l and thousands of stories here that are rough as hell. Gang bangs, BDSM bondage, stories of women begging to be fucked and fucked and cum all over and treated like whores....

Consensually.

So there is plenty of that. The draw here is non consent. The draw is the woman not wanting it and not enjoying it therefore the reader, especially a male one, is not being excited by the sex, but the woman getting hers. Pure and simple.

Back to rapist fantasy. It is not enjoyable if the woman wants it at any point. Those are the stories the site supposedly does not want. That is of course why they have a non consent section Funny how it always goes full circle with that.
'
Lush stories does not allow rape. They have a rough sex section and reluctance section no rape nice and simpel they made a rule and left no open category for rape.

But they also have actual editors and a real screening process. Work is a four letter word on lit these days. Its a maximum profit minimal effort site and getting rid of non consent would create actual work so its easier to just look foolish.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

@ Lovecraft68

This post is more in reference to things you said in your "but lit does not allow rape stories thread" but I have no desire to bump that thread.

I logged on to this pm a few minutes ago.

would you roleplay as a married milf for gangbang for me and my and friends in ghetto?! Alex 27 m ohio nasty perv and I am into detailed plays on yahoo.

No correspondence with this poster, this was his introduction to me. I replied "Not even a Hi? This is how you introduce yourself, can me and my friends gang bang you? And I told him where to go.

This was what I just got back.

oh look its mother teresa talkin! whom the fuck are you kidding you dirty cunt?! why the fuck else are you here?! for bible study?! why the fuck do you need a hi?! are you sitting in production meeting in the office. you are no good whore and you don't deserve any fucking pleasantaries. wake up from that dream Cinderella cunt. Its not 'can i ganbang you'.. its 'get to your business and only thing you are worthy of you cunt!' you know what.. you just established you are a fuckin hypocrite and hypocrites belong to my iggy bin so off you go cry to your daddy rotten cunt!

because I am a woman on this site I am a dirty whore and should be used like one.

"get to your business and only thing you are worthy of you cunt."

Would anyone like to reopen the discussion of the treatment of women on this site? At least outside of the writers forums where the guys are not generally looking for cyber pussy?

No culture of misogyny here, no, not at all.

Well, he wasn't very polite. But you have to admit, the guy can write! Whew! Look at that grammar! And the spelling! This is obviously a clever, clever man, who deserves to be taken seriously. Did you get his username? Was it Oscar Wilde? I bet it was Oscar Wilde.

 

[LaRascasse]

Well, he wasn't very polite. But you have to admit, the guy can write! Whew! Look at that grammar! And the spelling! This is obviously a clever, clever man, who deserves to be taken seriously. Did you get his username? Was it Oscar Wilde? I bet it was Oscar Wilde.

One of the precious few perks of having your very own penis is that you're spared PM's like that.

 

[VenusButterflies]

Well, he wasn't very polite. But you have to admit, the guy can write! Whew! Look at that grammar! And the spelling! This is obviously a clever, clever man, who deserves to be taken seriously. Did you get his username? Was it Oscar Wilde? I bet it was Oscar Wilde.

Obviously it was Wilde. He has grown tired of the articulate utterances of men and things . . .

 

[squirrelzo]

I find this terminology of a "rapist" fantasy very bothersome.
Many actual rapists are...married, with "normal" lives and "normal" fantasies. They may fantasize about rainbows and romance. They may peruse gay male. Then they get pissed because their wife calls them a loser and they go rape a stranger.
The vast majority of actual rape is an opportunistic crime of violence.
There is NO necessity for it to be or have been a fantasy at any point.
There is NO proven connection between pornography consumption/addiction and committing rape. Trust me I have scoured the statistics.
There is the argument that releasing aggression through a stroke "rapist" fantasy will actually diffuse the urge to violence, not cause it.
The relation between fantasy/reality is waay more complicated.
Behavioralists separate the mass of rapists from sex killers--i.e. people whose SOLE motivation in rape or killing is the gratification of a sexual fantasy. Ted Bundy for example.
These do exist, but they are actually much more rare. And not to be confused with the rapist who is actually NOT
motivated by fantasy.
Furthermore there is a huge difference between a porn scenario you jerk off to and a very deep seated fantasy that does not change, has been there or in formation since childhood and is basically unaffected by anything.

"Rapist fantasy" is to me a very misleading generalization that doesn't at all reflect the complexity and reality of sexual violence.

 

[subdued_passion]

Question for the women; is it plausible that a particular female character's appeal of the rape fantasy is not so much in the power dynamic, and not in any sadism/masochism dynamic, but in the idea of a partner pushed beyond all limits of self-control, where their lust overrides everything?

As a male, the idea of a (female) partner pushed to a point where they simply aren't going to take no for an answer is very hot, assuming it's a partner who I want to have sex with in the first place. But this strikes me as a much safer fantasy then with the roles reversed. Much of the female POV rape fantasy I've read on here seems to focus on the power loss or on physical pleasure (or pain), which I can understand but is less fitting for my character.

I have a scene planned, in which a woman who carries some rape fantasies meets a man who she believes has that potential. She is entirely willing before, during and after sex. But she never verbalizes that consent. And infact she briefly protests during, because she wants to know that he is pushed beyond any point of self-control.
Now, I can't decide if this is rape or not; from the female's point of view, she got what she wanted; but from the male's point of view, he continued after she told him to stop, and he had no reason to suspect that she actually did want him to continue. I'm not sure it actually matters whether it fits any technical version of rape or not; it's an important, plot-driven scene in my story. But I can't decide how willing I am to plunge into her enjoyment of the encounter. In the moment, she's feeling a little empowered by it: that after a history of relatively passive partners, she's provoked such a strong response in anyone. Of course, there's a bit of fear and loss of physical power involved as well. What do others think; pausible within a female fantasy perspective?

In studies it has been observed that one of the reasons women enjoy erotic rape fantasies is that they like to imagine themselves/ the victim being so attractive/ irresistible to the rapist that he just had to have them at any cost.

 

[subdued_passion]

@ Lovecraft68

This post is more in reference to things you said in your "but lit does not allow rape stories thread" but I have no desire to bump that thread.

I logged on to this pm a few minutes ago.

would you roleplay as a married milf for gangbang for me and my and friends in ghetto?! Alex 27 m ohio nasty perv and I am into detailed plays on yahoo.

No correspondence with this poster, this was his introduction to me. I replied "Not even a Hi? This is how you introduce yourself, can me and my friends gang bang you? And I told him where to go.

This was what I just got back.

oh look its mother teresa talkin! whom the fuck are you kidding you dirty cunt?! why the fuck else are you here?! for bible study?! why the fuck do you need a hi?! are you sitting in production meeting in the office. you are no good whore and you don't deserve any fucking pleasantaries. wake up from that dream Cinderella cunt. Its not 'can i ganbang you'.. its 'get to your business and only thing you are worthy of you cunt!' you know what.. you just established you are a fuckin hypocrite and hypocrites belong to my iggy bin so off you go cry to your daddy rotten cunt!

because I am a woman on this site I am a dirty whore and should be used like one.

"get to your business and only thing you are worthy of you cunt."

Would anyone like to reopen the discussion of the treatment of women on this site? At least outside of the writers forums where the guys are not generally looking for cyber pussy?

No culture of misogyny here, no, not at all.

I don't think ^^^this is a good example of the culture of misogyny here. It's more of an individual thing. That guy probably talks in a similar manner to women he meets with in person (hence the need for a cyber gangbang).

There are plenty of GGG guys out there and here with some respect and manners.

-V

I figured out what GM is, what's GGG?