Not For The Thin-Skinned

[Liar]

Angelicminx, I've just got to say that I like rhymed poetry much better.
It gives it a superior flow compared to WickedEve's alternative, and flow is, at least to me, one of the absolutely most important things when you're writing poetry.
I say go with the flow, go with rhyme!
PS. I'm no good at writing poetry, I'm just sayin' what I like. DS

You know, I really like rhymed poetry too, and to me, flow is a very important thing. Poetry with a beat is a great thing IMO. I still think that Eve's suggestion is a good one. Why? Because good rhyming poetry spounds great, but is a very hard thing to do. For a beginner poet (like most of us here are, me included) it's easier to learn and delevop a voice without that constraint. Then, by all means, write rhymes if that's what you want.

#L

 

[angelicminx]

Angelicminx,

I'm certainly not an expert poet, since most of my experience is working with proposals, writing stories, and editing other folks work where they are looking for rewrites, not suggestions. But the folks here are great at pointing things out, and I'm learning a lot from them in finding ways to point out what I see and feel, without doing it for you.

First off, don't worry if it rhymes. Worry about what it is you want to say first. What jumps out at you and what thoughts and emotions do you want the reader to get from your work. Once you've figured out what that is, if you end up choosing a form that rhymes, terrific, but don't be constrained by that artificial boundry.

Second, use vivid or action words to get your points across. The more "punch" or "zing" you get into the words, the better chance you have in getting your points across.

Third, consistent "voice" through your poem - passive or active. For your work, active voice would seem to be more effective, painting your picture as actions/doing instead of observing or being passive.

Look at your second strophe:

Animals, made of foam
Used as practice for the kill
Archers through the forest stalk
Showing off their skill

Whats the main point you're wanting to portray? Archers stalking through the forest and shooting arrows at dummy animals to hone their archery skills. Look at the kinds of words and phrasing I used in my first comment. What can you come up with to make this strophe come alive? What are possible ways to make it active? Whats most important to you - the archers or the animals? Look at how you've phrased it currently and see what it appears to be.

For me, it's foam animals, since you start your strophe with that image.

Apply some of those thoughts to the rest of your poem and see what you can coem up with. Heck, on my last poem, I went through 5 iterations I posted here (and a half dozen I did offline) and even had a title change before I was happy with it.

Play with it, mess with the words and format a bit, and see what you come up with.

PC has been down for a bit, I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. Thank you for the advice. It is very difficult to break out of the rhyming frame of mind, but I will certainly work on it. I have discovered through reading the poetry on this site that I just don't get a lot of it, lol. I'll spend some time working on this one and repost what I come up with.

 

[angelicminx]

angelicminx,

just want to throw a quick 2 cents in here, for what it's worth.

it is my firm belief that no novice poet will improve if they insist on writing poetry with end rhymes.

good, rhyming poetry is very difficult to write, and simply cannot be done by a writer without extensive experience. it always ends up sounding and feeling "forced," and just plain bad.

my advice is to get rid of the rhymes, and first learn to say exactly what you want to say, without those artificial constraints, or any others.

Thanks, Pat! Hard work, but I'm willing to put in the effort to improve.
My favorite so far is "He Gives Me Butterflies", I'd love your opinion on that.

 

[angelicminx]

What is implied here are goals that can easily pulled together.
There maybe 10 people here, that have written things that have approched greatness. (Pat being one of them) The GREAT poets all have written losers, somethings little more than downright crap. To write great poetry, it must have a great meaning to you, and it must resonate well to a varied audience. Does this subject matter have great meaning to you?
To get the H's is a different matter, a good rule of thumb, is that if your poetry is a little better than average, 50% (maybe higher) of the votes are going to be returned favours, and you can be cutesy, trite, or cheesy, but not too much, but it should have some interest, and for starters forget the end rhyme as Pat advised. Now how many comments have you left? What type of comments, what did you see that you liked, why? Why does it work for you?
Now a work of art is one thing, a poster is another, I suspect that this will be some form of advertising - I defer to Zanzibar.

Some of your statements are admirable.
I have no clue how to change that, though I am willing to learn.
I have a lot to learn.
We all do, we all do; to start, read, learn the basic tools of the trade, don't be defensive about criticism, a good critic will enable you to see another viewpoint. You don't have change what you wrote, just consider what was said. Take a good look at the beginning of this thread. Pat, one of the best writers that ever graced this place put something up, was set upon by two, maybe more, pitbulls, he defended his position, but made alot of changes. And that was one of the few poems that I have seen here that approched greatness.

Great advice, looking at other poetry and taking note of why I liked it. I don't vote or leave comments on the ones I read and just don't get. Usually I leave a comment on something that touches me, or feels like the author has been inside my head. I do tend to favor rhymed poetry, but I think that is because that's what I have always expected.

Advertising? No, just something I wanted to say about a place that had been such a large part of my life for the last 6 years. The people who own it have become family to me and I wanted to give them something special.

I love constructive criticism, for exactly the reasons you state. I don't care for "it sucks" without an reason and I don't care for "fluff".

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm excited about learning and becoming a better writer.

 

[angelicminx]

angelicminx, for a novice poet to expose their words, without rhyme, is a very naked experience.
The rhyme ruins a poem that does have some potential. It sounds juvenile with lines like: "Creating such a thrill" "Anticipation's great." But you need these lines for your rhyme habit. In free verse you can get rid of the thrill.

I did my own thing with your first couple of stanzas. This is a quickie but it's good enough to give you an idea of other ways to say the same thing.

Cedar hills roll on
past the catfish lakes,
beyond the gentle death of foam,

soon a breathless fall
when forests become more
than trees--

snapping twigs
and archer's swift outline.

Breaking the habit will be hard, as I am sure you are aware, but I see your point. Thank you!

 

[angelicminx]

Angelicminx, I've just got to say that I like rhymed poetry much better.
It gives it a superior flow compared to WickedEve's alternative, and flow is, at least to me, one of the absolutely most important things when you're writing poetry.
I say go with the flow, go with rhyme!
PS. I'm no good at writing poetry, I'm just sayin' what I like. DS

And it doesn't make it childish at all!

I loved rhymed poetry and prefer it to free verse, but as it was stated earlier it's hard to do well. My goal is to learn how to get the image I want across while holding onto the rhyme and rhythm I love.

angelicminx,

<snip>

so as a poet who professed a desire to improve her writing, you have to decide which one is correct. you have to make a decision HOW you are going to improve, and whose advice has more validity.

you have to choose.

and on what basis do you make that decision? you have to figure that out to.

nothing's easy.

Both are valid points, IMO. I believe working with free verse will help me learn to write in rhyme. I also believe that learning to write with free verse will give me a better understanding of what I call "obscure poetry" (the ones I don't get )

I do appreciate the willingness to help. IMO, the people on this board are the toughest critics, but also among the best poets I have seen.

 

[angelicminx]

First I'd read, read and read poetry of all kinds then decide how you want to be read yourself.

I've written in both styles and have no preference but I will say it's harder to pull off a rhyming verse well.

Great advice. I have started doing that, thanks to the suggestions made on this board.

You know, I really like rhymed poetry too, and to me, flow is a very important thing. Poetry with a beat is a great thing IMO. I still think that Eve's suggestion is a good one. Why? Because good rhyming poetry sounds great, but is a very hard thing to do. For a beginner poet (like most of us here are, me included) it's easier to learn and delevop a voice without that constraint. Then, by all means, write rhymes if that's what you want.

#L

Thanks L!

 

[Zanzibar]

PC has been down for a bit, I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. Thank you for the advice. It is very difficult to break out of the rhyming frame of mind, but I will certainly work on it. I have discovered through reading the poetry on this site that I just don't get a lot of it, lol. I'll spend some time working on this one and repost what I come up with.

Wondered where you'd run off to!

Welcome back!

I thought about the rhyming as well... one other possibility, longer lines that have a broader scope that rhyme. Condensing the essence of each strophe into a single line, and going from there, them making a collage of the pictures with the poem centered.

.......pic....... pic........
pic......poem........pic
.......pic........pic........

 

[angelicminx]

Wondered where you'd run off to!

Welcome back!

I thought about the rhyming as well... one other possibility, longer lines that have a broader scope that rhyme. Condensing the essence of each strophe into a single line, and going from there, them making a collage of the pictures with the poem centered.

.......pic....... pic........
pic......poem........pic
.......pic........pic........

That's a cool idea for the illustrations! I'll definitely be playing around with the various ideas, I'm bound to hit something.

 

[PatCarrington]

Looking for critique and razor blades

anyone want to spend some time to slice and dice this, be my guest.

i would welcome ANY critique, of any depth you want, especially if it's vicious.




In Search of Pirandello


I do my share to support the tragedy,
enjoy it more than I care to admit.
I never leave at intermission. I watch
fires and accidents and let them
play out. I stand dutiful, properly sad,
as the progress swells. Until the house
is embers, until the street is clean
and busy again. I cheer at the right time.

Content in the crowd without a face,
I have become proficient at recognizing
dénouement, at respecting
the fine line between fact and fiction.
I know when enough is enough,
the point of curtains. I move along
when there is nothing left to see.

But sometimes I think it might be
more useful to the big picture,
to the drama, if at that point I halted
so someone new could color in
the empty spaces, the suspicions,
the subtleties of my eyes.

We should all be still and wait then,
until someone else picks up the pen
and scribbles, or the aerosol can
and sprays our future on a wall,
makes this that play within a play.
I would love to argue about the lines
for once, and see who plays me
if I don’t play myself. All this

can be captured in that better way.
Somewhere, there is that sure a hand.
I remember what to do. I need to find
some buddies. Five, isn’t it? And
a deserted street to wander down, one
that’s easy for an aspiring god to locate.

I hope when he makes the rest up,
he defers to the comforts of strangers
once in a while, and remembers
to shatter a little glass
and burn something down
every now and then,
so we all don’t get too lonely.

 

[wildsweetone]

anyone want to spend some time to slice and dice this, be my guest.

i would welcome ANY critique, of any depth you want, especially if it's vicious.




In Search of Pirandello


I do my share to support the tragedy,
enjoy it more than I care to admit.
I never leave at intermission. I watch
fires and accidents and let them
play out. I stand dutiful, properly sad,
as the progress swells. Until the house
is embers, until the street is clean
and busy again. I cheer at the right time.

Content in the crowd without a face,
I have become proficient at recognizing
dénouement, at respecting
the fine line between fact and fiction.
I know when enough is enough,
the point of curtains. I move along
when there is nothing left to see.

But sometimes I think it might be
more useful to the big picture,
to the drama, if at that point I halted
so someone new could color in
the empty spaces, the suspicions,
the subtleties of my eyes.

We should all be still and wait then,
until someone else picks up the pen
and scribbles, or the aerosol can
and sprays our future on a wall,
makes this that play within a play.
I would love to argue about the lines
for once, and see who plays me
if I don’t play myself. All this

can be captured in that better way.
Somewhere, there is that sure a hand.
I remember what to do. I need to find
some buddies. Five, isn’t it? And
a deserted street to wander down, one
that’s easy for an aspiring god to locate.

I hope when he makes the rest up,
he defers to the comforts of strangers
once in a while, and remembers
to shatter a little glass
and burn something down
every now and then,
so we all don’t get too lonely.

Sorry Patrick, I don't do vicious (unless it's to myself 'cause of a bad t day lol)
will this do?


In Search of Pirandello


I do my share to support the tragedy,
enjoy it more than I care to admit.
I never leave at intermission. I watch
fires and accidents and let them
play out. I stand dutiful, properly sad,
as the progress swells. Until the house (you build me up to swells, then dump me in embers - maybe do something more with continuing 'swells')
is embers, until the street is clean
and busy again. I cheer at the right time. (it feels like too many 'I's in this verse)

Content in the crowd without a face,
I have become proficient at recognizing
dénouement, at respecting
the fine line between fact and fiction.
I know when enough is enough,
the point of curtains. I move along
when there is nothing left to see.

But sometimes I think it might be
more useful to the big picture,
to the drama, if at that point I halted
so someone new could color in
the empty spaces, the suspicions,
the subtleties of my eyes. (does one know one's own eyes have 'subtleties'?)

We should all be still and wait then,
until someone else picks up the pen
and scribbles, or the aerosol can (this line break doesn't work for me)
and sprays our future on a wall,
makes this that play within a play. (from 'We should' to 'play' seems wordy and not gramatically correct)
I would love to argue about the lines
for once, and see who plays me
if I don’t play myself. All this (why line break here?)

can be captured in that better way. (this sentence is too vague)
Somewhere, there is that sure a hand. (italicise 'that'...?)
I remember what to do. I need to find
some buddies. Five, isn’t it? And
a deserted street to wander down, one
that’s easy for an aspiring god to locate.

I hope when he makes the rest up,
he defers to the comforts of strangers
once in a while, and remembers
to shatter a little glass
and burn something down
every now and then,
so we all don’t get too lonely.

(There are five 'that's - they seemed to stick out because of verse 5, line 2.

I need to read your poem a few more times. I've read it half a dozen already and there are still little things I am discovering. )

 

[twelveoone]

Sorry Patrick, I don't do vicious (unless it's to myself 'cause of a bad t day lol)
will this do?


We should all be still and wait then,
until someone else picks up the pen
and scribbles, or the aerosol can (this line break doesn't work for me)
and sprays our future on a wall,
makes this that play within a play. (from 'We should' to 'play' seems wordy and not gramatically correct)
I would love to argue about the lines
for once, and see who plays me
if I don’t play myself. All this (why line break here?)

I need to read your poem a few more times. I've read it half a dozen already and there are still little things I am discovering. ) [/b]

These are good questions, WSO, if nothing else it drives home the point I tried to make about reading, I have a good idea of what his answers will be.

aerosol can, indeed! 1201 laughs and sees with the "subtleties of my eyes" these
little literary jokes you put in here.

Well now that I'm done kissing your ass, Pat. The kick, with sharpened cleats. Some of this sizzles and pops like grease and water on a fryiing pan. You really want to end it this way.
ssst. like a wet match head
"every now and then,
so we all don’t get too lonely."

 

[Angeline]

anyone want to spend some time to slice and dice this, be my guest.

i would welcome ANY critique, of any depth you want, especially if it's vicious.

This poem is shaping up nicely. The pronoun usage throughout is crystal clear now. It all feels cohesive.

A few small comments.


In Search of Pirandello


I do my share to support the tragedy,
enjoy it more than I care to admit.
I never leave at intermission. I watch
fires and accidents and let them
play out. I stand dutiful, properly sad,
as the progress swells. Until the house house is fine, but you could say theater or some such to be clearer
is embers, until the street is clean
and busy again. I cheer at the right time.

Content in the crowd without a face,
I have become proficient at recognizing
dénouement, at respecting
the fine line between fact and fiction.
I know when enough is enough,
the point of curtains. I move along there are always curtains, sometimes open, sometimes shut--do you need to clarify?
when there is nothing left to see.

But sometimes I think it might be
more useful to the big picture, i think the repetition of "to the drama" after "to the big picture" is overkill
to the drama, if at that point I halted
so someone new could color in
the empty spaces, the suspicions,
the subtleties of my eyes. "subtleties reflected in my eyes"? there's a logic shift at this point where the "drama" is shifting from around you to in you--maybe you need to somehow clarify that

We should all be still and wait then,
until someone else picks up the pen
and scribbles, or the aerosol can i think you need a verb before "aerosol can" like "takes the"
and sprays our future on a wall,
makes this that play within a play. "makes that the play within a play" lets you lose "this that" which is awkward
I would love to argue about the lines
for once, and see who plays me
if I don’t play myself. All this

can be captured in that better way.
Somewhere, there is that sure a hand. you transition again here, move the action back into real life but you're not in the theater anymore and I'm wondering if you need a reference to that somehow, another related image to keep that ending anchored in the theme
I remember what to do. I need to find
some buddies. Five, isn’t it? And
a deserted street to wander down, one
that’s easy for an aspiring god to locate.

I hope when he makes the rest up,
he defers to the comforts of strangers
once in a while, and remembers
to shatter a little glass
and burn something down
every now and then,
so we all don’t get too lonely.

 

[twelveoone]

Angeline
since you're here, do you see what I think I see?

 

[Angeline]

Angeline
since you're here, do you see what I think I see?

mebbe. lol.

what are we talking about? pat's poem?

 

[Angeline]

mebbe. lol.

what are we talking about? pat's poem?

if you mean the ending--I'd end (now that you've mentioned it) with "burn something down." a strong, active image--not amorphous lonliness...

 

[twelveoone]

http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/1934/pirandello-bio.html

beyond this?

 

[twelveoone]

and scribbles, or the aerosol can
and sprays our future on a wall,
makes this that play within a play.

How does this echo to you?

 

[twelveoone]

amoung others:
Daniel (5:5)
In
the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against
the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and
the king saw the part of the hand that wrote.

Omar Khayyam
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on:

or the aerosol can
and sprays our future on a wall,
honestly Pat, this is the first time I burst out laughing, reading you, a good thing, a very good thing

 

[Angeline]

amoung others:
Daniel (5:5)
In
the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against
the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and
the king saw the part of the hand that wrote.

Omar Khayyam
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on:

or the aerosol can
and sprays our future on a wall,
honestly Pat, this is the first time I burst out laughing, reading you, a good thing, a very good thing

I see it now that you pointed it out.

I would have thought of Plato's shadow on the cave wall, which is not quite what you're connecting, but similar.

 

[twelveoone]

Ange?
that play within a play

crowd without a face

*******************************************
dénouement - unusual word choice for a Pat Carrington
*******************************************

I guess, we'll have to wait for Pat to get back, to see if I'm hearing too many echos

 

[Angeline]

Ange?
that play within a play

crowd without a face

*******************************************
dénouement - unusual word choice for a Pat Carrington
*******************************************

I guess, we'll have to wait for Pat to get back, to see if I'm hearing too many echos

Dénouement is not unusual in the context of drama, and play within a play I know is a Hamlet reference. Crowd without a face? Oh I forget that one--maybe Eliot?

 

[twelveoone]

Dénouement is not unusual in the context of drama, and play within a play I know is a Hamlet reference. Crowd without a face? Oh I forget that one--maybe Eliot?

Thank you.
I was getting quite a Shakespearen tone, but I couldn't quite place it. I either think it was deliberate, or right below the concious level

Crowd without a face, I don't know, anytime I see those two words, crowd and face, it begins to have a whole host of vague meanings, I can't quite place it, sociology? "faces in the crowd" has become quite a cliche, but it still has an ominious ring to it. Here I think Pat is just inverting a cliche.

THE apparition of these faces in the crowd;
Petals on a wet, black bough. - Pound

 

[wildsweetone]

oh my bad. lol I knew there was more to it, but didn't know what.

'crowd without a face' reminds me of 'eyes without a face' - Billy Idol

 

[Angeline]

Thank you.
I was getting quite a Shakespearen tone, but I couldn't quite place it. I either think it was deliberate, or right below the concious level

Crowd without a face, I don't know, anytime I see those two words, crowd and face, it begins to have a whole host of vague meanings, I can't quite place it, sociology? "faces in the crowd" has become quite a cliche, but it still has an ominious ring to it. Here I think Pat is just inverting a cliche.

THE apparition of these faces in the crowd;
Petals on a wet, black bough. - Pound

I'm thinking of Eliot's The Hollow Men--I'll check it but it may just be the notion of a crowd without a face being a hollow thing.