Not For The Thin-Skinned

[PatCarrington]

hi ange. if i'm the masochist, i suppose that makes you the sadist. i'll try to answer your questions and doubts in as intelligent a way as possible, given my fast disappearing sobriety. if my answers suck, please respond with more of the whip. ....you might want to do that anyway.


bent? or maybe "wrinkled" something to convey age?

i used the adjective "bent" to bounce off the word "weight" in line 2.

I don't get this stanza Patrick. Why have the boots turned red? I associate red with bloodstains given the subject, but I don't think you mean that--did they fade to that color...but faded doesn't work with "hot world" to me; "faded" seems more consistent with "lukewarm," but maybe that's me. It's making it hard for me to visualize it.

the boots aren't necessarily red ( though the "weight" certainly is, to reflect the blood of everyone below ), but have a reddish ( rosy ) hue -- an image of the sky in the 4th line, as well as the blood on wood ( reddish on brown -- blood on wood does not look red, really ) image of the 4th stanza. i meant the "hot world" to be the image of below -- but, as you point out, it is being used as a modifier for boots -- THAT is a problem i need to address, probably simply by disconnecting it as a modifier of boots, though still keeping the "red family on brown family" image (hot vs. creamy)

"neither" instead of "never"? maybe it's a wordplay you're doing, or trying a more elegaic tone?

i'm not sure you picked up the image here -- how can boots be on and off at the same time? both on the floor AND on his feet? how can they be on, never to be removed, and off, never to be put on again, both at once, and both forever? -- try it again...........i worked like a son-of-a-bitch to get that right 1201 didn't pick it up at first either....he said it "sneaked up on him"

I don't like "talked" unless you just mean like "squeaked" or something, but you don't--I'm sure you mean they had a story, but "talked" is not a rich enough term to convey that to me

i did indeed mean 'talked', but only to their owner, the grandfather. i had other words instead of 'talked', but decided to keep it simple. i am certainly not sure that talked is the best word at all. but, it is the word he used to me, which might make it seem to me better than it is in the poem (i'm positive it's better than squeaked. boots that are not on someone's walking feet, and squeak, would have sent me out the door fast)......what did my grandfather mean when he said his boots "talked" to him?....i tried to answer that in the last stanza....

How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there.

do people flush with acceptance? I think there's a better image to use here; maybe something that conveys stoicism or quiet sadness or something

they do when they are confessing...at least he did...he was emotional, and confessing to me that he had accepted that these things would be with him forever, though i didn't get the full concept of what he was saying until i was much older....your point is well-taken though, and he was stoic, in his own way....but his face was flushed for sure (though it may have been the wine)

why "of"? It seems an odd preposition to use rather than "with," but I like the crucifiction reference

i agree. it seemed odd to me too. and i put with there, and kept going back to "of"....it just feels right to me, as if his whole self had soaked into the wood, not just drops.....i can't tell you how many times it kept coming back to "of" for me....does that make sense?

"know" doesn't quite get it here to me because his ears hear sounds that are memories, yes? maybe the problem is "hear" but I think you should say something to clarify that meaning

i hear what you're saying. i just wanted to keep it simple..."man talks to boy" simple, in as many spots as i could.

the ending is gorgeous. don't change a word.

oh. gee whiz. a compliment. .......would you tend to my marks now? .....you hit harder than usual....i don't want to mess up the rugs.

thank you, dear.

 

[PatCarrington]

Patrick,

I wonder if you really would want to use Dresden in the title here if the poem is only about the man, a boy and the pair of boots. While your grandfather's presence at the bombing is noteworthy, Dresden is such a controversial and emotional subject I really wonder if anyone aware of what happened there will be able to read your poem as only about a man, a boy and a pair of boots. I'm afraid mentioning Dresden in the title will leave readers, like I did, expecting to see more of a connection there and while the poem as a poem about a man, a boy and a pair of boots stands well by itself, the expectation of the connection to Dresden will leave the reader dissatisfied. If the title excluded dresden... "Grandfather's Boots" or "His Flying Boots" the title would not fill the reader with an expectation of something different.

Just something to think about...


jim : )

impressive....i didn't skip your points.....i just wanted to answer jim and anna's posts. they're simpler.

jim - you make a good point. i certainly do not want the reader thinking about his encyclopedia of knowledge on Dresden, or expecting something that is not, instead of reading the poem.

thanks.

 

[PatCarrington]

1. Are we supposed to keep going with the critiques, or wait for revisions?
There have been many thoughtful critiques done, I hope it okay Patrick that I maybe give a few suggestions or comments and then wait for revisions. If you are not intending to post the revision here at some point, I will give it a go round 1. Could we start another poem while the first one is in revision?

poem 1 original
critiques poem 1
poem 2 original
critiques poem 2
poem 1 revision
critiques 1 revision
etc etc etc or would that be too confusing?



2. Is this like interact where the poet answers back, or more like a critque where the poet answers questions that are stated as such, but does not answer the critique.

In the future, the poets critique the critique that takes the fun out of it, and people will stop. Also, it is in poor form for critics to argue their own points amongst each other on the boards. Unless this is intended to be a discussion and not a place for critiques.


To me if the poet agrees, they should make a change, if they don't, don't. Then after the revision maybe give a little talk.

3. Are we going to be serious about the off topic posts? (For example my first one-- I controlled myself and did not post another one to Ange )Will the moderators be removing them? Is it possible for us to have one serious thread? I think so. Now is now, it has been over a year since this was last tried. I have one foot out the door here. (which may be incentive for off topic posts )

4. I am hoping that more brief critiques will be encouraged as well, without long explanations. If people think they have to write a page long crit, they may not participate.

Patrick?

anna

i don't see why we can't have 2 poems going at once.

i was not planning on posting a revision soon. there is a lot to think about, and i still have posts i have to address.

if you want to comment on this poem, or post a new one of your own, certainly do.

i just thought this up this morning, anna. so there are no rules or etiquette, other than what i requested. only ON-TOPIC posts should be put here.

i think this should be a serious thread, poetry only. there are plenty of sandboxes to play in here.

brief critiques, or critiques of any kind, from anyone, are welcome. long or short. it is not necessary to go in-depth. even one specific question about a specific word or line or thought is fine with me.

post your poem if you like.

 

[Guest]

Colour me confused by this thread.

I like the idea of in depth examination of a poem but there's too many cross-currents to wade through. Perhaps the various participants' coloured ink could be IDed.

I'll wait for the condensed version.

 

[twelveoone]

Agree with jim, just about to ask that myself, why Dresden in title no other connection
"stones" is another loose end:
this is an interesting suggestion, and something to consider. i used stones to give the image of 'carrying' something with 'weight' to it. ashes does not accomplish that. the word steps means 'decisions' , of course, in the image of the feet and shoes. "weight" will, true used previsiouly; yes "steps" must stay;

rosy dawn is trying to refer to both the present color of the faded boots, slightly reddened with old age, and also trying to refer to the glow that the firebombing colored the sky with -- as if the boots had absorbed and adopted, through age and memory and participation perhaps, that color. --
the word dawn implies a beginning, with rosy, even a hope, seems to take you in a direction opposite of everything else; when you are realizing the story, it may have been dawning on you. Will not do it for anyone else.

Pat let's just zoom in on a set of words:

rosy dawn,
creamy pleasure
steps like stones
silence and stillness

sounds like springtime, skipping stones across a stream

the suggestion to read "strange meeting" was not to rewrite it, but to lure you a little away from "skipping stones in spring" . Everytime I read you; it's spring.
You need just a little less lightness here.
First two lines:
"In bent display below air force relics,
a certain red weight buckled the old skin"
what does this sound like? why are these sounds here? "bent display below"

Last lines:
"carries his steps like stones to the grave.
How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there. How aftermath,
the silence and stillness, stay with you
just like souvenirs."
see how this kind of zips along, do you want it that fast at the end?
replacing two words:
"carries his steps like weight to the grave.
How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there. How aftermath,
the silence and sadness, stay with you
just like souvenirs."
slows it down just a little, is this more of an effect you want. Or as a question, why so slow in the beginning, fast at the end, the end where the realization sets in? the somberness.

Now look at these two sentences:
How ears hear from far away sounds they know are there.
How aftermath,the silence and stillness, stay with you just like souvenirs.

Really takes off, soars, this seems to be a pattern, in what I remember of yours. Do you want it here?

lets throw some other words out
burnt
umber
ember
rememberance

Just my take on it, as I always said "your stuff sings", here I think it sings in the wrong places.

 

[Angeline]

hi ange. if i'm the masochist, i suppose that makes you the sadist. i'll try to answer your questions and doubts in as intelligent a way as possible, given my fast disappearing sobriety. if my answers suck, please respond with more of the whip. ....you might want to do that anyway.


bent? or maybe "wrinkled" something to convey age?

i used the adjective "bent" to bounce off the word "weight" in line 2.

I don't get this stanza Patrick. Why have the boots turned red? I associate red with bloodstains given the subject, but I don't think you mean that--did they fade to that color...but faded doesn't work with "hot world" to me; "faded" seems more consistent with "lukewarm," but maybe that's me. It's making it hard for me to visualize it.

the boots aren't necessarily red ( though the "weight" certainly is, to reflect the blood of everyone below ), but have a reddish ( rosy ) hue -- an image of the sky in the 4th line, as well as the blood on wood ( reddish on brown -- blood on wood does not look red, really ) image of the 4th stanza. i meant the "hot world" to be the image of below -- but, as you point out, it is being used as a modifier for boots -- THAT is a problem i need to address, probably simply by disconnecting it as a modifier of boots, though still keeping the "red family on brown family" image (hot vs. creamy)

"neither" instead of "never"? maybe it's a wordplay you're doing, or trying a more elegaic tone?

i'm not sure you picked up the image here -- how can boots be on and off at the same time? both on the floor AND on his feet? how can they be on, never to be removed, and off, never to be put on again, both at once, and both forever? -- try it again...........i worked like a son-of-a-bitch to get that right 1201 didn't pick it up at first either....he said it "sneaked up on him"

I don't like "talked" unless you just mean like "squeaked" or something, but you don't--I'm sure you mean they had a story, but "talked" is not a rich enough term to convey that to me

i did indeed mean 'talked', but only to their owner, the grandfather. i had other words instead of 'talked', but decided to keep it simple. i am certainly not sure that talked is the best word at all. but, it is the word he used to me, which might make it seem to me better than it is in the poem (i'm positive it's better than squeaked. boots that are not on someone's walking feet, and squeak, would have sent me out the door fast)......what did my grandfather mean when he said his boots "talked" to him?....i tried to answer that in the last stanza....

How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there.

do people flush with acceptance? I think there's a better image to use here; maybe something that conveys stoicism or quiet sadness or something

they do when they are confessing...at least he did...he was emotional, and confessing to me that he had accepted that these things would be with him forever, though i didn't get the full concept of what he was saying until i was much older....your point is well-taken though, and he was stoic, in his own way....but his face was flushed for sure (though it may have been the wine)

why "of"? It seems an odd preposition to use rather than "with," but I like the crucifiction reference

i agree. it seemed odd to me to. and i put with there, and kept going back to "of"....it just feels right to me, as if his whole self had soaked into the wood, not just drops.....i can't tell you how many times it kept coming back to "of" for me....does that make sense?

"know" doesn't quite get it here to me because his ears hear sounds that are memories, yes? maybe the problem is "hear" but I think you should say something to clarify that meaning

i hear what you're saying. i just wanted to keep it simple..."man talks to boy" simple, in as many spots as i could.

the ending is gorgeous. don't change a word.

oh. gee whiz. a compliment. .......would you tend to my marks now? .....you hit harder than usual....i don't want to mess up the rugs.

thank you, dear.

You want me to argue poetry with you while you're erm less than in your full faculties? Or I could have some wine, too (we have a lovely bottle of Pinot Grigio in the fridge), but I don't think that will help your poem.

Anyway, the last time I had a few glasses of it I started referring to it as Topo Gigio.

I need time to absorb your disagreemen...uh..comments. I'll be back. With or without Topo.



Oh. Here's a band-aid.

 

[annaswirls]

Patrick, another gem. I am not certain that the background story was necessary. This poem has a general theme that is more universal anyway. The poem itself does not give mention to the event, so I think the title, or something like it, is necessary if you want the specific image.

I enjoyed this poem as is, and my comments are strictly nit picks (I hate that term, would love another)

***************************************************

His Dresden Boots


In (a, the?)bent display below air force relics,
a certain red weight buckled the old skin
of grandfather’s flying boots. They’d long lost
the tan and absorbed a rosy dawn, <---did the rosy dawn replace the tan, or was the tan lost first, then came the dawn? this sounds like the latter
a hot world absent its creamy pleasure. <--creamy does not fit, especially with pleasure. Sounds like whipped topping
I remember his glazed eyes as he said they
were both on the floor and on his feet forever,
that he would never wear nor remove them again,

and that they talked.<----I would love to see a little bit more about the talking boots, was disappointed. maybe that was the intention, maybe grandfather did not say what they said
There was flushed acceptance on his wrinkled face,
like the leather’s oiled-in penance,
like wood stained of pierced palms.
Like being judged.

I know what he meant now, how a man
carries his steps like stones to the grave. <---excellent line, best of the poem, I can feel its weight
How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there. How aftermath,
the silence and stillness, stay with you
[just] like (adjective?)souvenirs.

<---"just" does not seem necessary it reads It makes the line seem too light, not the way to end a heavy poem. Seems like a diminutive phrase (?) with the just in there, the idea of a souvenier is light enough, maybe give it a heavy descriptor. Thinking of Vonnegut, remember how that soldier got shot for taking the figurine? Maybe reference that?

Well done, I am interested to see how this turns out!

~Jennifer

 

[PatCarrington]

I totally suck at INTENSE analysis/critique, but you have been so graciously helpful to me that I'm just going to throw my feelings into the pot, FWIW. (I have to step WAY outside my NF personality to do it, though, and that's uncomfortable.)

I echo Angeline's comments about the word "talked." To me, it implies an exchange -- a dialogue. I recommend "spoke." It's more one-sided.

Should air force be capitalized -- or am I being anal?

"Creamy" doesn't work well for me, even after reading your explanation. I get the feeling of the proud, rigid newness of boot leather being sucked away by the profound gravity of the memories they carry -- and that just doesn't bring "creamy" imagery to mind.

With "penance" and "pierced palms," I would recommend a word other than "judged" to convey more of a sacramental feel in order to give that stanza an intensely powerful and "divine" punch.

I read this aloud twice before I got your flow:

How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there.

... and I think it would read easier by breaking the line after "away" OR perhaps using "the distance" (or similar) instead of "far away."

Lastly, I would consider something other than "stay with you" in reference to aftermath/souvenirs. Perhaps "remain" or "survive" or "endure" -- or even "live with you."

That's just me, though.

(Going back to my observation corner, now.)

imp

there seems to be a lot of people who have a problem with the 'talked' image along with you....there must be something to it. when i pull this poem back out, after putting it away for a while to regain objectivity, i will certainly have to figure that out.

i don't think 'air force' needs to be capitalized. as far as your 'anality', i'm not sure there's a connection there.

'creamy' isn't working for me too well any more either. i have already replaced the word "pleasure" with "peace".

doesn't "judgement" have similar connotations as the previous 2 images?

the line break suggestion is certainly a reasonable one. i did it that way for balance.

"remain", "survive", and "endure" are very different words from one another, with very different connotations. i liked "stay" ( and will consider "remain" ) because "stay" implies how his "unchosen" souvenirs simply will not go away, in the simplest way possible. i very much like one-syllable words, and always try to use as many as possible.

thanks very much for the suggestions. they're all food for thought.

 

[sack]

Oh no, HIM again!

Well, Pat, I've already said a lifetime of mouthfuls about your winning poem, and you know my particular idiosyncrasies as a poet (very short lines, no wasted words, no vague metaphors, etc.). With that as a backdrop, I don't think your long sentences spread over several lines work any better in this poem than in the winning one. And you have a very strange sense of line breaks....you use "of" at the beginning of a line, an extremely unimportant word in this poem.

But, I've already addressed the way your poems can be rewritten in easier to digest chunks earlier. Here are some specific things I noticed in this poem:

1. The whole "on the floor and on his feet" section is very awkward and wordy. You don't need the word "both", because people don't go around walking with one boot on, and you also don't need the second mention of "on". Thus, "on the floor and his feet" pretty much says what you previously expressed with more words.
2. The boots "talking" (or, more precisely, being worn during stressful events) could have been expressed in a more telling way by using specific scenes that would rivet the reader's attention. For example:

And Grandfather's boots could tell tales...
The weary medic dressing the oozing sore
The frightened dying soldier asking for his mother
The oppressive heat of death, in burnished crimson

and I did those in ten seconds, you could find less obvious ones and fit them to your own temperament.

3. The phrase "leather's oiled-in penance" reminds me of the similarly awkward "boot-heeled rain" statement from the winning poem. This sentence is confusing because an inanimate object such as leather doesn't do penance...people do. So you would have to rewrite this with grandfather as a subject (or another person) - "His penance was oiled-in leather" or some such thing. Frankly, it's not a particularly telling image anyway, I probably would just drop this line entirely.

4. Like Angelique, the ending paragraph is the best, I wouldn't change a whole lot. Some of the sentences could be shorter and more devastating, you're a bit too polite here. But I think "less is more" is a statement which appropriately applies to your poems (at least the two I've read so far), and is one you could profitably act upon.

Thanks for sharing this and putting it up for scrutiny...certainly has profound possibilities.


Sack

 

[PatCarrington]

double post.... ~~

 

[impressive]

imp

there seems to be a lot of people who have a problem with the 'talked' image along with you....there must be something to it. when i pull this poem back out, after putting it away for a while to regain objectivity, i will certainly have to figure that out.

I don't have a problem with the image, per se, of the boots communicating. I think that rocks, in fact. I was just trying to avoid the image of a conversation and instead linking the image more closely to an uninvited voice -- akin to the unwanted souvenirs -- haunting.

'creamy' isn't working for me too well any more either. i have already replaced the word "pleasure" with "peace".

doesn't "judgement" have similar connotations as the previous 2 images?

Yeah - it does, but not quite as much as "penance" and "pierced palms" (which really cannot be construed in any other way).

the line break suggestion is certainly a reasonable one. i did it that way for balance.

"remain", "survive", and "endure" are very different words from one another, with very different connotations. i liked "stay" ( and will consider "remain" ) because "stay" implies how his "unchosen" souvenirs simply will not go away, in the simplest way possible. i very much like one-syllable words, and always try to use as many as possible.

Understood. I tend to mystify the souvenirs -- giving them a will of their own -- a will to survive, to keep memories alive, to ensure that the events/horrors are not forgotten over time. You may not want that image at all, but with the religious connotations of the penance stanza, I got the impression that you do.

thanks very much for the suggestions. they're all food for thought.

I'd say it was "my pleasure" but it was more like having a tooth pulled.

~Imp

 

[PatCarrington]

Agree with jim, just about to ask that myself, why Dresden in title no other connection
"stones" is another loose end:
this is an interesting suggestion, and something to consider. i used stones to give the image of 'carrying' something with 'weight' to it. ashes does not accomplish that. the word steps means 'decisions' , of course, in the image of the feet and shoes. "weight" will, true used previsiouly; yes "steps" must stay;

rosy dawn is trying to refer to both the present color of the faded boots, slightly reddened with old age, and also trying to refer to the glow that the firebombing colored the sky with -- as if the boots had absorbed and adopted, through age and memory and participation perhaps, that color. --
the word dawn implies a beginning, with rosy, even a hope, seems to take you in a direction opposite of everything else; when you are realizing the story, it may have been dawning on you. Will not do it for anyone else.

Pat let's just zoom in on a set of words:

rosy dawn,
creamy pleasure
steps like stones
silence and stillness

sounds like springtime, skipping stones across a stream

the suggestion to read "strange meeting" was not to rewrite it, but to lure you a little away from "skipping stones in spring" . Everytime I read you; it's spring.
You need just a little less lightness here.
First two lines:
"In bent display below air force relics,
a certain red weight buckled the old skin"
what does this sound like? why are these sounds here? "bent display below"

Last lines:
"carries his steps like stones to the grave.
How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there. How aftermath,
the silence and stillness, stay with you
just like souvenirs."
see how this kind of zips along, do you want it that fast at the end?
replacing two words:
"carries his steps like weight to the grave.
How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there. How aftermath,
the silence and sadness, stay with you
just like souvenirs."
slows it down just a little, is this more of an effect you want. Or as a question, why so slow in the beginning, fast at the end, the end where the realization sets in? the somberness.

Now look at these two sentences:
How ears hear from far away sounds they know are there.
How aftermath,the silence and stillness, stay with you just like souvenirs.

Really takes off, soars, this seems to be a pattern, in what I remember of yours. Do you want it here?

lets throw some other words out
burnt
umber
ember
rememberance

Just my take on it, as I always said "your stuff sings", here I think it sings in the wrong places.

1201

i'm not sure what to do with the title. i think it evokes the memory of hearing the facts of Dresden, but why is it necessary for the poem to go there in a detailed way?

jim's suggestions of title change certainly are something to think about though. i guess the name triggers more in some people's minds than i thought it would.

"rosy dawn" and "creamy peace" may go too. but i don't get a "springtime" feel from them or the piece in general.

"steps like stones" and "silence and stillness", to me, are far from springtime images, especially in context.

i can't see what change you made in the last stanza to alter the speed. you replaced "stones" with "weight" (which i think is weakening) -- they read the same to me, pace-wise.

i appreciate your going so deep into it. am i missing a point you were trying to make?

 

[PatCarrington]

Patrick, another gem. I am not certain that the background story was necessary. This poem has a general theme that is more universal anyway. The poem itself does not give mention to the event, so I think the title, or something like it, is necessary if you want the specific image.

I enjoyed this poem as is, and my comments are strictly nit picks (I hate that term, would love another)

<---"just" does not seem necessary it reads It makes the line seem too light, not the way to end a heavy poem. Seems like a diminutive phrase (?) with the just in there, the idea of a souvenier is light enough, maybe give it a heavy descriptor. Thinking of Vonnegut, remember how that soldier got shot for taking the figurine? Maybe reference that?

Well done, I am interested to see how this turns out!

~Jennifer

anna

every point and suggestion you make seems to have some merit to me.

i made the last line "light" intentionally (though i am far from sure that was a good idea).

i had thought of throwing a Vonnegut reference or two in, but decided they might be too obscure. i might change my mind, especially since the one you reference fits very well.

when i get a revision done, i will post it.

 

[PatCarrington]

Well, Pat, I've already said a lifetime of mouthfuls about your winning poem, and you know my particular idiosyncrasies as a poet (very short lines, no wasted words, no vague metaphors, etc.).

In my opinion, a poet’s ‘particular idiosyncrasies’ should not force him to assume that all other ways of writing are then inherently incorrect or inferior to his. A poet who “likes very short lines” should be able to see the value of “very long lines” as well, I would think.

To be able to tell whether a word is “wasted” or “vital” is an essential element in all poetry. That is where judgment comes in.

And I’m sure you agree that ‘vagueness of metaphor’ is a subjective thing, and can as easily be indicative of a weak reader as it is a weak writer, or any combination thereof.


With that as a backdrop, I don't think your long sentences spread over several lines work any better in this poem than in the winning one.

Without an explanation of this statement, it is too vague and impossible for me to judge. Unless you mean you prefer “very short lines”, in which case my answer would be the same as above. Long and short lines both work in poetry, if handled well.


And you have a very strange sense of line breaks....you use "of" at the beginning of a line, an extremely unimportant word in this poem.

Why can’t “of” be at the beginning of a line? I would very much like to hear an explanation of that, since I don’t understand why a preposition should not begin a line. It would be interesting.


But, I've already addressed the way your poems can be rewritten in easier to digest chunks earlier.

As with all eating, it probably depends on who is doing the digesting. I certainly wouldn’t give my canary the plate of pancakes I just devoured. Nor would I be happy with his seeds.


Here are some specific things I noticed in this poem:

1. The whole "on the floor and on his feet" section is very awkward and wordy. You don't need the word "both",

I would have to disagree. I think the word “both” is important.


because people don't go around walking with one boot on,

Where does it say someone has one boot on? I don’t see that in the poem. Although I have seen it in taverns, and once in a swamp.


and you also don't need the second mention of "on".

I disagree here also. I think the second “on” is vital.


Thus, "on the floor and his feet" pretty much says what you previously expressed with more words.

No, I don’t agree. Clarity is sacrificed, in my opinion, without the second ‘on.’


2. The boots "talking" (or, more precisely, being worn during stressful events) could have been expressed in a more telling way by using specific scenes that would rivet the reader's attention. For example:

And Grandfather's boots could tell tales...
The weary medic dressing the oozing sore
The frightened dying soldier asking for his mother
The oppressive heat of death, in burnished crimson

Those are not the experiences the boots had. They were on his feet, in a plane.


and I did those in ten seconds,

Yes. I can tell.


you could find less obvious ones and fit them to your own temperament.

3. The phrase "leather's oiled-in penance" reminds me of the similarly awkward "boot-heeled rain" statement from the winning poem.

I don’t understand. Why can’t rain be boot-heeled, or penance oiled-in?

I just don’t think you grasp image or metaphor very well.



This sentence is confusing because an inanimate object such as leather doesn't do penance...people do.


Well, that’s hard to argue with, but I’ll try.

Technically, that is true, of course. But this is poetry we are talking about, is it not?

Again, it shows a poor grasp of image and metaphor, in my humble opinion.

Why, in a poem, can’t leather do penance, exactly? Or feelings fly, or trees ache, or emotions be shaped like butterflies or rocks or swallow each other?

That would be another explanation I would very much like to hear. I think others would enjoy it as well, and find it telling. Perhaps, even soaked in insight.

Can explanations be soaked in insight?


So you would have to rewrite this with grandfather as a subject (or another person) - "His penance was oiled-in leather" or some such thing.

This would change the meaning too drastically, I think.


Frankly, it's not a particularly telling image anyway, I probably would just drop this line entirely.


In my opinion the line is vital.


4. Like Angelique, the ending paragraph is the best, I wouldn't change a whole lot. Some of the sentences could be shorter and more devastating,

How does the shortness of a line increase its devastation? That is a very complex issue.


you're a bit too polite here. But I think "less is more" is a statement which appropriately applies to your poems (at least the two I've read so far), and is one you could profitably act upon.

Thanks for sharing this and putting it up for scrutiny...certainly has profound possibilities.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts as well.

I love sharing. That’s why I taught it to my children.



Sack

patrick

 

[PatCarrington]

i have found so many of the thoughts and suggestions here very helpful. the poem is still in its infancy....just 2 days old.

here is my first revision:


His Dresden Boots


Displayed below air force mementos,
a certain red weight buckled the old skin
of grandfather’s flying boots. They’d long lost
their tan and absorbed an umber dawn,
a day burnt of its morning peace.

I remember the embers in his eyes as he said
they were both on the floor and on his feet forever,
that he would never wear nor remove them again,
that they talked to him. While he confessed,

heat flushed his wrinkled face
like the leather’s oiled-in penance,
like wood stained of pierced palms.
Like being judged.

I know what he meant now, how a man
carries his steps like stones to the grave.
How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there. How aftermath,
the silence and stillness, stay with you
just like souvenirs.


thanks to everyone who offered their views.


i hope others will share poetry that they feel requires this kind of deep-eyed exam.

patrick

 

[ishtat]

Short Response

How about rheumy instead of glazed ?- suggests great age.

I disagree that the title should exclude Dresden . It needs some reference to the firestorm. Otherwise it's just another bombing raid in the old mans mind. That's all.

 

[PatCarrington]

How about rheumy instead of glazed ?- suggests great age.

I disagree that the title should exclude Dresden . It needs some reference to the firestorm. Otherwise it's just another bombing raid in the old mans mind. That's all.

i agree.

i have decided to keep the title.

thanks for the thought.

 

[twelveoone]

1201

i'm not sure what to do with the title. i think it evokes the memory of hearing the facts of Dresden, but why is it necessary for the poem to go there in a detailed way?

jim's suggestions of title change certainly are something to think about though. i guess the name triggers more in some people's minds than i thought it would.

"rosy dawn" and "creamy peace" may go too. but i don't get a "springtime" feel from them or the piece in general.

"steps like stones" and "silence and stillness", to me, are far from springtime images, especially in context.

i can't see what change you made in the last stanza to alter the speed. you replaced "stones" with "weight" (which i think is weakening) -- they read the same to me, pace-wise.

i appreciate your going so deep into it. am i missing a point you were trying to make?

maybe,
true weight has the same speed stones does, I also replaced stillness with sadness (as you had done in a reply to jim).
The first two lines - 3 B's; 3 D's; 1 P. 2 S's but look where they are (cs, sk)
last five lines - 1P, a shitload of S's and a couple of TH's
The last 5 lines seem to move to fast, for the mood I think you are trying to convey, especially compared to the first two. This speed is compounded by the last two sentences starting with the same word.
I think the last two sentences are fantastic sentences, but may be a bit excessive, sonically here; for this. If this is your intent, I'll shut up, I just wanted to point it out.

 

[PatCarrington]

maybe,
true weight has the same speed stones does, I also replaced stillness with sadness (as you had done in a reply to jim).
The first two lines - 3 B's; 3 D's; 1 P. 2 S's but look where they are (cs, sk)
last five lines - 1P, a shitload of S's and a couple of TH's
The last 5 lines seem to move to fast, for the mood I think you are trying to convey, especially compared to the first two. This speed is compounded by the last two sentences starting with the same word.
I think the last two sentences are fantastic sentences, but may be a bit excessive, sonically here; for this. If this is your intent, I'll shut up, I just wanted to point it out.

1201

you've been great here on this thread.

very open, expressing opinion. i appreciate it.

to me, the last paragraph is one of understanding, the grown boy coming to grips with the memory and the meaning of his grandfather's words about the boots, and with the boots themselves.

i see no reason for a slower pace to accompany that mood.

sonically, i could play around forever, but i think the last line should have a bluntness to it, an "oh...now i get it," feeling of realization.

 

[twelveoone]

Displayed below air force mementos,
a certain red weight buckled the old skin

modded the first two lines - why? what did I miss?
It is beginning to lose that patented pat carrington flow (guard against it)

You know Pat, this may be the best thread, I've seen (sorry, line off topic)
and good luck (sorry another line off topic)

 

[twelveoone]

1201



i see no reason for a slower pace to accompany that mood.

sonically, i could play around forever, but i think the last line should have a bluntness to it, an "oh...now i get it," feeling of realization.

OK, what I was looking for, you are aware, your decision, it is YOUR poem, how you feel, I think it will be awesome in the final version.

 

[PatCarrington]

2nd revision:

His Dresden Boots


Troubled below air force mementos,
grandfather’s flying boots buckled
with a certain red weight. They’d long lost
their tan and absorbed an umber wrinkle,
a day burnt from its morning peace.

I remember the embers in his eyes as he said
they were both on the floor and on his feet forever,
that he would never wear nor remove them again.
And that they talked to him. While he confessed,

heat flushed his scored face
like the leather’s oiled-in penance,
like wood stained of pierced palms.
Like being judged.

I know what he meant now, how a man
carries his steps like stones to the grave.
How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there. How aftermath,
the silence and stillness, stay with you
just like souvenirs.

 

[sack]

The revision...

I like the revision better than the original, it flows in a more pleasing way. Your questions to me are difficult to answer in a few words, but I'll try....

1. Everyone criticizing this poem is coming from their own experiences. I didn't mention my idiosyncrasies to imply they are better than anyone elses'....rather just a brief description of where I'm coming from. (for better or worse!)
2. Long sentences can work, but you tend to break yours up and wrap them around several lines, making the reading experience more jarring. And of course, a preposition could begin a sentence, but if you are going to break the sentences up anyway, I would reserve the most important word for the first slot, because that is what the reader sees first. In the sentence with "of", the main thrust is "grandfather" or "boots". So, in this case, you could have put the "of" in the sentence before, starting the line with "grandfathers".
3. The examples of what the boots "saw" could have happened in a plane....but that is besides the point. Even with this revision, the poem can still be made more vivid by giving brief vignettes of what was happening "around the boots."
4. You love metaphor obviously...but in a very real, gritty poem such as this, I think it weakens it to discuss mythical things such as leather doing penance, it just seems out of place. At least in the Old Girl Winter poem the concept was a little vague anyway, so you could get away with the dressing room analogy, the boot-heeled rain, and the many other metaphors you used. Here, the leather doing penance is too benign compared to everything else that is happening. Even in the revision, it's far from the strongest line in the poem.
5. In most cases in society, the assumption is that people wearing boots wear both at one time. You don't need the word "both" because the average reader will assume both. (unless they happen to be in a tavern!)
6. As far as fewer words being more powerful, someone had suggested you remove the word "just" for this very reason. Most poems can be made more streamlined by going over potential extra "ands" "ofs", etc. Particularly with a subject matter such as this, a few words expertly chosen could suggest many possible scenarios and whet the reader's interest even further. I think you're 80% on target, but even this revision might be pared down here and there.

I hope that clarifies my comments on this excellent poem.

Sack

 

[PatCarrington]

I like the revision better than the original, it flows in a more pleasing way. Your questions to me are difficult to answer in a few words, but I'll try....

1. Everyone criticizing this poem is coming from their own experiences. I didn't mention my idiosyncrasies to imply they are better than anyone elses'....rather just a brief description of where I'm coming from. (for better or worse!)
2. Long sentences can work, but you tend to break yours up and wrap them around several lines, making the reading experience more jarring. And of course, a preposition could begin a sentence, but if you are going to break the sentences up anyway, I would reserve the most important word for the first slot, because that is what the reader sees first. In the sentence with "of", the main thrust is "grandfather" or "boots". So, in this case, you could have put the "of" in the sentence before, starting the line with "grandfathers".

Sack - it appears to me you do not have a feel for enjambment.

and i think the "last" word in a line of poetry is far more important than the first. that's where the "pulling" to the next line occurs, and a word at line's end tends to be read twice, both on its own and also together with any modifiers that follow it. this is why, generally speaking, i think it is good to end lines with nouns or verbs, and normally a bad idea to end them with propositions.


3. The examples of what the boots "saw" could have happened in a plane....but that is besides the point. Even with this revision, the poem can still be made more vivid by giving brief vignettes of what was happening "around the boots."

specific things on the ground, other than the fire and its ramifications in the old man's mind, seem tangential to me and out of place in the poem.

4. You love metaphor obviously...but in a very real, gritty poem such as this, I think it weakens it to discuss mythical things such as leather doing penance, it just seems out of place. At least in the Old Girl Winter poem the concept was a little vague anyway, so you could get away with the dressing room analogy, the boot-heeled rain, and the many other metaphors you used. Here, the leather doing penance is too benign compared to everything else that is happening. Even in the revision, it's far from the strongest line in the poem.

this is not a 'gritty' poem. it is a poem about sadness and guilt, and understanding.

5. In most cases in society, the assumption is that people wearing boots wear both at one time. You don't need the word "both" because the average reader will assume both. (unless they happen to be in a tavern!)

to me, the word 'both' serves an important purpose here, to reinforce the concept that the boots are in two places, and always will be. 1) physically, they are on the floor and he refuses to wear them again, ever. 2) emotionally they will always be on his feet, as they were when he triggered the bomb bay, as a reminder of a moment that will not go away......i don't think you are picking up the image


6. As far as fewer words being more powerful, someone had suggested you remove the word "just" for this very reason. Most poems can be made more streamlined by going over potential extra "ands" "ofs", etc. Particularly with a subject matter such as this, a few words expertly chosen could suggest many possible scenarios and whet the reader's interest even further. I think you're 80% on target, but even this revision might be pared down here and there.

I hope that clarifies my comments on this excellent poem.

it does, a bit. i still think you need some more experience reading poetry.

Sack

thanks for the thoughts.

patrick

 

[Tathagata]

2nd revision:

His Dresden Boots


Troubled below air force mementos,
grandfather’s flying boots buckled
with a certain red weight. They’d long lost
their tan and absorbed an umber wrinkle,
a day burnt from its morning peace.

I remember the embers in his eyes as he said
they were both on the floor and on his feet forever,
that he would never wear nor remove them again.
And that they talked to him. While he confessed,

heat flushed his scored face
like the leather’s oiled-in penance,
like wood stained of pierced palms.
Like being judged.

I know what he meant now, how a man
carries his steps like stones to the grave.
How ears hear from far away sounds
they know are there. How aftermath,
the silence and stillness, stay with you
just like souvenirs.

I like this better than the original though I almost want to say you took some of the " frills" away.
( I am too fond of lace curtains perhaps)
it is much stronger emotionally though and I think it works in that it is direct without being maudlin or dreary.
it is honest and straightforward.
The " step" line works , for me, once you read it a second time.
The fact that it catches you the first time almost makes you go back and reread it..where you find the rhythm, like a subtle back beat, that was there all along.

The separation of that 3rd " like" makes those 3 work, though someone we know would argue about 3 likes in a row.



I like the metaphors through out

the second verse illustrates the duality and the conflict internal and external very well in my opinion.

all in all not a bad days work laddie

Thanks for sharing it..and giving us a glimpse of how your mind works during your process.
I know I've picked up a trick or two

Be Well Patrick