Oh cut me a fucking break!!!

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Student Civil War re-enactor faces charges

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Wednesday, October 13, 2004

PINE BUSH, N.Y. – A student who took part in a Civil War re-enactment was arrested and could get expelled after a replica musket was found in his car at school.

Joshua Phelps, 17, left the gun, a bayonet, rolled cartridges with black powder and a Union soldier's uniform in the car after participating in the weekend re-enactment. He was called to the assistant principal's office Tuesday after a security guard spotted the weapon in the Pine Bush High School parking lot.

"I actually thought it was kind of stupid, at first, when I heard it was about the musket," Phelps said. "I didn't think I'd get arrested over it."

Crawford town police confiscated the musket, handcuffed Phelps and charged him with misdemeanor criminal possession of a weapon, punishable by up to a year in jail.

Police Chief Daniel McCann said the replica, which fires blanks, could have been used to fire a projectile.

"I know this might appear to be a minor thing, but it's not," McCann said. "The musket was found in his car on the high school grounds and could have been used."

Phelps, a member of the school's Civil War Club, also was suspended from school for five days.

The crime seems to be having a blank gun used in a Civil War re enactment in the kid's car in the school parking lot --- either Pine Bush is awfully hard up for crime, or someone is awfully hard up for publicity.

Wonder how many kids will volunteer to lug a blank gun around all day, the next time they have a re enactment?

I love Police Chief Daniel McCann's explaination of the charges: "I know this might appear to be a minor thing, but it's not." . . . [He] said the replica, which fires blanks, could have been used to fire a projectile.

As could rubber bands, pop straws, and plastic rulers, amongst many other things found in a school.

 

[millennium_bard]

Locally they have had kids as young as kindergarten expelled for up to a year for pointing their fingers and saying "bang" while playing at recess.

The school board has so far failed to explain how a kindergarten student's finger constitutes a weapon, but has in every case upheld the suspension.

Also a high school student was expelled for having an NRA bumpersticker on his car.
No pictures of a gun, just the words "NRA Lifetime Member"

 

[Guest]

I have to say, one thing I like about Ohio's laws is that they are intentionally vague. Intent is the deciding factor, not the letter of the law.

For instance there are no specifics about the size of knife one can legaly carry as long as it isn't concealed. If the knife is intended for benign purposes there is no problem. But if the officer asks about it and you say some thing stupid like, "It's in case I need to cut somebody up." You're going to jail.

This is a case of beaurocrats dutifully following the letter of the law and not considering the intent. Sad testament to the paranoia in that state.

 

[SensualCealy]

In our school (elementry) if you are found with matches for your smokes you can be suspended.

I however think the caution used with the musket was in good faith. BUT and make that a big BUT, I think the distance they went with this is too far, if adults would actually listen to students or kids for that matter this wouldnt be an issue. All they had to say to ask him was why was it in his trunk, or truck. With his explanation Im sure they would realize there wasnt any intent to use this firearm (even if it doesnt fire!)

We also have a rule at our school about replicas. The only way you are allowed to bring them is with a parents note and they have to be checked at the office until they are needed for said purpose. The kids arent even allowed to bring fingernail clippers with a file to school, it can be used as a weapon!

In some ways this is going too far , but when your kid gets stabbed with a dull file and needs stitches, Im sure you would back up the regulation too.

Administration needs to use their better judgement when it comes to handing out punishment for issues like this. You cant have the same punishment for an issue like this and the same for a kid that brings a machette to class and starts to whack peoples heads off.

JMHO
Cealy

 

[Guest]

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Just be glad you didn't go to a school after the first telekinetic school deaths.

I admit the lobotomies were uncomfortable at first, but we got used to them. We had to with the anti-telepaths controlling our minds.

The football players loved the new ciriculum though. Nothing to do but play football or cheer.

And people will look back and call that the good ol' days.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... I hope this doesn't sound like a double standard...

Yes, but it was, wasn't it?

If it had been somebody struggling with Math or English, or having interpersonal problems in school because of family difficulties, the kid would have been expelled, exacerbating any of those problems mentioned.

But authorities tend to make pets of those who cause their work to look better and goats of those who make their job more difficult, without bothering to consider of what cause is at the root of the problem.

"Bad" students need someone to cut them a break now and again just as honor students do.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... I hope this doesn't sound like a double standard...

Yes, but it was, wasn't it?

If it had been somebody struggling with Math or English, or having interpersonal problems in school because of family difficulties, the kid would have been expelled, exacerbating any of those problems mentioned.

But authorities tend to make pets of those who cause their work to look better and goats of those who make their job more difficult, without bothering to consider what cause is at the root of the problem.

"Bad" students need someone to cut them a break now and again just as much as honor students do.

 

[Boxlicker101]

At least cooler heads prevailed at my daughter's school. By mistake, she went to school with a little Swiss army knife in her back pocket. One of the teachers noticed the outline and she was sent to the principals office. Once there she burst into tears and I was summoned to the school. Ordinarily, such an offence would carry a 3 day suspension, but because she's an honor roll student, deeply involved on the school literary journal, and had never been in trouble before, it was reduced to a detention.

I hope this doesn't sound like a double standard.

MSL

It was a double standard, but isn't that usually the case. If a known troublemaker with a history of starting fights had come to school with a knife, he or she would have been dealt with much more harshly. That would be reasonable and would reflect real life, where repeat offenders usually get stiffer sentences. To me, this also seeems reasonable.

By the way, a three day suspension for carrying a knife to school seems rather light. I'm not personally complaining because I am not a student and have no children in school but in some school districts, even your daughter would have been expelled. That would have been excessive but it would have happened.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Re-enactor under fire for musket
Associated Press
Oct. 14, 2004 12:00 AM

PINE BUSH, N.Y. - Joshua Phelps spent the weekend "fighting" off the Confederate Army while playing the role of a Union soldier during a Civil War re-enactment.

Now the Pine Bush High School senior is facing expulsion from school after a security guard spotted Phelps' musket replica in the back seat of his parked car in the school's parking lot.

The 17-year-old - who joined the school's Civil War Club after seeing a school-sponsored ad encouraging students to get involved with the group - was called down to the assistant principal's office Tuesday, where he was told that a weapon had been spotted in his car.

Also found inside the vehicle during a search by school officials was a bayonet, rolled cartridges with black powder, and a Union soldier's uniform.

"I actually thought it was kind of stupid, at first, when I heard it was about the musket," Phelps told the Times Herald-Record of Middletown, which first reported the story Wednesday. "I didn't think I'd get arrested over it."

But that's exactly what happened when Town of Crawford police showed up at the school 67 miles north of New York City, where they not only confiscated the musket but handcuffed Phelps and charged him with misdemeanor criminal possession of a weapon, punishable by up to a year in jail.

Phelps, who was looking to expand his extracurricular activities to beef up his college applications, also was suspended from school for five days.

Police Chief Daniel McCann told the Times Herald-Record the replica could have been used to fire a projectile.

"I know this might appear to be a minor thing, but it's not," McCann said. "The musket was found in his car on the high school grounds and could have been used."

Phelps' mother, Valerie Michaels, said she believes the district overreacted.

"I don't understand why the school wants to push this so far," she told the newspaper. "There are bigger problems at that high school than this. It just doesn't make any sense."

But David Ernst, spokesman for the state School Boards Association, told the AP that even fake guns that are incapable of hurting someone could still cause chaos in a school.

"Districts have to be concerned any time there is an apparent threat to student safety," he said.

Pine Bush School Superintendent RoseMarie Stark did not return a phone call seeking comment.

I think they should use the replica to fire Police Chief Daniel McCann and Pine Bush School Superintendent RoseMarie Stark.

I am just surprised that nothing has been heard from the leadership of the 124th New York State Volunteers re enactment troop. If they don’t make some effort to protect one of their re enactment people, they don’t deserve to have any volunteers in the future.

Likewise, Pine Bush School deserves not to have any student participating in anything but strictly mandatory programs.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I think they should use the replica to fire Police Chief Daniel McCann and Pine Bush School Superintendent RoseMarie Stark.

I am just surprised that nothing has been heard from the leadership of the 124th New York State Volunteers re enactment troop. If they don’t make some effort to protect one of their re enactment people, they don’t deserve to have any volunteers in the future.

Likewise, Pine Bush School deserves not to have any student participating in anything but strictly mandatory programs.

I hope he actually is charged and pleads "Not guilty" and insists on a jury trial so McCann and Stark can be called to testify and make fools of themselves. No jurors in their right minds would ever vote for a conviction.

 

[Guest]

Re: Patriot Act Violation

Sounds seditious to me. I'll bet he was planning to invade Virginia. Damn Yankee.

Edward The Neocon

I'm a Yankee, you Neocon.

(Does this mean we can't have sex???)

 

[cantdog]

The proper response to a remark about damn yankees is to pass a remark about copperhead scum.

It's only polite.

 

[SlickTony]

We have the same sort of stupidity going on in the courthouse where I work. 'Course that's understandable to a degree, as you have inmates and people accused of crimes going in and out all day. However, I fail to see how a nail file is that much deadlier than a pen or a pencil. And--theoretically, at least--my hands and feet are--or are in the process of becoming--deadly weapons.

 

[Guest]

The proper response to a remark about damn yankees is to pass a remark about copperhead scum.

It's only polite.

LOL!

Well, we're not having sex until he apologizes, copperhead scum or no.

I have my standards, ya know!

 

[Edward Teach]

Re: Re: Patriot Act Violation

I'm a Yankee, you Neocon.

(Does this mean we can't have sex???)

Nah, you're one of those healthy corn fed gals from the heartland. Besides, if I got you to Myrtle Beach for a weekend, I think I could teach you to Shag and convert your jiggly butt.

well do something with it anyway


Smoove Eddie Teach

 

[SensualCealy]

First off, why in their right mind would the re-enactment troup not hold on to the guns? They could have someone that is an adult keep the guns and bring them to all the re-enactments. Instead an innocent kid is going to get a mark on his school file that will follow him through college or university.

I cant get over the fact that it was in his trunk, not in the back seat or in his locker, how the hell is he going to sneak out and get it out of his trunk without anyone seeing? And by the way, how do you hid a musket- little big dont you think?

Anyone trying to hide something will act suspicious, was he? No not if he was carrying on with his day and didnt know why he was asked to the office.

I agree with Boxlicker, have the kid plead not guilty and make the adults in question make their claim. Waste more tax payers dollars to prove he WASNT a threat! But to prove the superintendent and the Cheif of police are over stepping the kids rights.

My two cents worth!
Cealy

 

[cantdog]

I love the way they "spotted" the thing in his trunk!

That's the part that pisses me off. Does the kid have a glass trunk lid? Or does the cop go around breaking into your car while you go to class?

 

[Boxlicker101]

I love the way they "spotted" the thing in his trunk!

That's the part that pisses me off. Does the kid have a glass trunk lid? Or does the cop go around breaking into your car while you go to class?

In the second news article that Burley posted, it referred to the musket as being in the back seat of a car. If it was in plain sight and was seen through a window, that would not be any kind of Constitutional violation. Since it would have looked like an actual weapon, the cops were justified in taking action. The bureaucratic dumbassery started after it was determined that it wasn't actually a working weapon.

I am assuming here that it was not really functional. I can't imagine issuing genuine shot, powder and the other things needed, and using actual working muskets just for a reenactment when imitations would work as well and would be much safer and cheaper.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

All three stories are from Associate Press, not doing an especially competent job about details.

“. . . with his Civil War costume, including a musket last week. He threw the uniform and equipment into his truck and forgot about it. . . . .”

. . . Phelps' mother questions why give the students fake guns and then arrest them. . . .”

In the first report only Joshua’s mother is calling it something other than a real weapon. The truck is probably a typo of trunk.

“. . . a replica musket was found in his car at school. . . .

. . . "I actually thought it was kind of stupid, at first, when I heard it was about the musket ," Phelps said.

. . . Police Chief Daniel McCann said the replica, which fires blanks, could have been used to fire a projectile. . .

The second report clarifies that it was in a car, but not what part of the car it was in. The weapon is a musket, and only toward the end do we read the police chief identify the weapon as a musket replica, mixed with his speculations about how it could be used aggressively. (As justification, it is not very impressive. A paperclip and a rubber band would be equally deadly.)

. . . after a security guard spotted Phelps' musket replica in the back seat of his parked car in the school's parking lot. . .

. . .[Joshua Phelp] joined the school's Civil War Club after seeing a school-sponsored ad encouraging students to get involved with the group . . .

. . . where he was told that a weapon had been spotted in his car.

Also found inside the vehicle during a search by school officials was a bayonet, rolled cartridges with black powder, and a Union soldier's uniform . . .


. . . they not only confiscated the musket but handcuffed Phelps and charged him with misdemeanor criminal possession of a weapon, punishable by up to a year in jail. . . .

. . . McCann said. "The musket was found in his car on the high school grounds and could have been used." . . .

. . . David Ernst, spokesman for the state School Boards Association, told the AP that even fake guns that are incapable of hurting someone could still cause chaos in a school. . .

By the third report we have the weapon in the back seat of the car WITH the other paraphernalia and uniform. Only a moron (the security guard who first spotted it?) could not tell that these were props used for re enactments, one whose participation the school had encouraged amongst the school’s Civil War Club. Yet Joshua was called to the principal’s office, handcuffed, and taken away to face a possible one-year prison term.

Meanwhile, the Police Chief speculates to reporters how the contraband might be used, and the School Board Association, in the same sentence, admits it was a “fake gun incapable of hurting someone” that could (in some unspecified way) “cause chaos in a school.”

While the quality of reporting, here, is less than third-rate, especially for a professional wire service, amidst all the shifting, and interchangeable terminology, it appears to me that the school and the police chief overreacted, and the kid is being sacrificed to save face.


A school board, it seems, can do anything, but the charge won’t stick if they take it to court. All the kid is guilty of is a misdemeanor civil possession of a theatrical prop.

 

[cantdog]

That's why I stopped subscribing to a newspaper. Every time I knew the real story, they had reported everything all garbled, confused, mis-emphasized, and stupid.

Why pay a weekly fee to be misinformed when I can do it on my own fer nuthin'?

 

[Boxlicker101]

All three stories are from Associate Press, not doing an especially competent job about details.


In the first report only Joshua’s mother is calling it something other than a real weapon. The truck is probably a typo of trunk.

The second report clarifies that it was in a car, but not what part of the car it was in. The weapon is a musket, and only toward the end do we read the police chief identify the weapon as a musket replica, mixed with his speculations about how it could be used aggressively. (As justification, it is not very impressive. A paperclip and a rubber band would be equally deadly.)

By the third report we have the weapon in the back seat of the car WITH the other paraphernalia and uniform. Only a moron (the security guard who first spotted it?) could not tell that these were props used for re enactments, one whose participation the school had encouraged amongst the school’s Civil War Club. Yet Joshua was called to the principal’s office, handcuffed, and taken away to face a possible one-year prison term.

Meanwhile, the Police Chief speculates to reporters how the contraband might be used, and the School Board Association, in the same sentence, admits it was a “fake gun incapable of hurting someone” that could (in some unspecified way) “cause chaos in a school.”

While the quality of reporting, here, is less than third-rate, especially for a professional wire service, amidst all the shifting, and interchangeable terminology, it appears to me that the school and the police chief overreacted, and the kid is being sacrificed to save face.


A school board, it seems, can do anything, but the charge won’t stick if they take it to court. All the kid is guilty of is a misdemeanor civil possession of a theatrical prop.

I can't really fault the security guard for reacting when seeing what appeared to be a weapon in the back seat of a car by the school. Or the cops either. After all, they were all just doing their jobs. However, once it was determined that it was a prop that was used in a school related (apparently) event, the whole thing should have been dropped. The school authorities should have apologized to the student, paid for whatever damage was done to his car and put the whole thing behind themselves. I hope the kid does go to court, pleads not guilty, demands a jury trial, does not waive time, and makes the stupid assholes invoved out to be just as stupid and assholish as they are.

 

[Edward Teach]

... Every time I knew the real story, they had reported everything all garbled, confused, mis-emphasized, and stupid.
W

I have had the same experience with newspapers, they always get it at least a little wrong. I once heard well know Washington lawyer, John Dowd say that he had never had a court case accurately reported in the newspaper and that sometimes they got it competely backwards.


Ed

 

[cantdog]

That's what my blind friend did. He got a lawyer known for his withering sarcasm and they refused all the plea-bargain offers. Eddie (the lawyer) told them he was going to positively enjoy going to court on this one, and all but licked his barracuda lips. (I like Eddie, he rocks.)

Sam (the blind guy) was charged with criminal threatening. The statement they give to the defense contained a deposition by the arresting cunthead, Sergeant Ron Gastia, whose real name I give in full, that he had spreadeagled Sam on the pavement and beat him with a nightstick, yelling loudly at him and kneeing him, because Sam had "raised his stick in a threatening manner when challenged." The stick was four feet long, white, and terminated in a red end near the pavement.

cantdog

ps worked like a charm. They went to trial and the prosecution moved to dismiss.

The cops were upset about it and watched Sam like a hawk for weeks, following him around with a video camera to catch him doing something.

How do I know that? He was with a friend of his and that friend's sister, two and a half weeks later. The sister had to fix the lacings on a boot, so so said to Sam, who smokes, even though her brother doesn't, "Here, Sam. Hold this, wouldja?"

She fixed the boot, put out a hand, and Sam passed the lit cigarette back to her. Out from behind a bush came a patrolman, who cited Sam for providing tobacco to a minor. He knew she was a minor, somehow. "We got the whole thing on video," he said smugly.

$200 fine, plus $20 because they add a 10% surcharge on fines for court costs.

Don't you just love the cops, though? The policeman is our friend.

 

[SensualCealy]

They should make an amendment to the law that says posession is 9/10ths of the law, to say observation is 9/10ths of the law.

Its one thing to observe whats going on but if you dont know what is being said for example Cantdogs blind friend, you would know "here hang on to this" does not mean, "here smoke this till you puke! "

Ever explanation needs to be given before proven guilty. Now the kid in the news articles was guilty of having a replica on school property, if they have that statement in the code of conduct then he is guilty. If they dont he should be given a public appoligy and re-enstated in class.

It is one thing to have a bad mark on your perminent school records for something you did do, but to have a bad mark for something that was preceived is a nother.

All the best to the kid.
Cealy