On Breastfeeding, Rights, and Good Manners

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by McKenna
Sounds like a personal problem.

Most socially-oriented problems are. That a problem is "personal" doesn't make it invalid; someone could be masturbating, cussing, berating their child, spanking their child, etc. in public... having a preference for that happening in private is, essentially, a personal problem--but that doesn't, alone, make it insignificant.

Would you mind expressing your opinions in a less public forum, please? They are offensive. That kind of thing should be handled in private.

Well, this isn't really a public forum, is it? More of an extremely open, private one. It has rules, it has ruling entities, it can enforce any subset of standards it wants, arbitrarily even, it isn't government controlled, etc.--as such, it is allowing things like my opinion (and encouraging them). So, I think I'm covered there. To use your analogy, if there were an extremely open, private place (park, playground, restaurants, stores, etc.) and women were allowed and encouraged to breast feed there... then there is no grounds for offense.

However, that we're talking about public spaces (effectively owned by the people, my taxes a part of that), my preference in the matter is meaningful. By no means is it the end all, I'm not going to ask a woman to stop, and I entirely understand the motivation behind doing it... I just think it should be handled in private, for the comfort of the rest of the public-space dwellers.

There isn't anything offensive or wrong about that.

 

[Goldie Munro]

Long before the invention of the baby bottle,Playtex, Gerber or anything else, it was a woman's breast that ensured the prolonging of an infant's life, there was no shame, no finger pointing, it was the way that humans survived.

When the fuck did we become so civilized as to see this as a shameless, iimmoral and sexually gratifying act? It's a lifeline, it's nurturing and bonding, it's not filthy, it's food for fuck's sake.

This burns my ass more than a three foot flame, people need to get their minds out of the gutter and back into what matters in society.

My red hot two cents.

yup - with you all the way!

Why should a woman have to go to the toilet to feed a baby in a restaurant? (or any where else for that matter but its the irony that gets me!)

 

[ABSTRUSE]

yup - with you all the way!

Why should a woman have to go to the toilet to feed a baby in a restaurant? (or any where else for that matter but its the irony that gets me!)

Thank you. I'm so sick and tired of self righteous, politically correct, pretentious bastards saying that something that is a source of life for a human being can be appalling or sexually gratifying to them....get a reality check or grow the fuck up.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by ABSTRUSE
Thank you. I'm so sick and tired of self righteous, politically correct, pretentious bastards saying that something that is a source of life for a human being can be appalling or sexually gratifying to them....get a reality check or grow the fuck up.

Much agreed.

 

[Guest]

Thank you. I'm so sick and tired of self righteous, politically correct, pretentious bastards saying that something that is a source of life for a human being can be appalling or sexually gratifying to them....get a reality check or grow the fuck up.

Quite!

Joe, what you said implies you consider it a fetish, you twit. There you go, I've spelled it out now.

Lou

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Tatelou
Quite!

Joe, what you said implies you consider it a fetish, you twit. There you go, I've spelled it out now.

Lou

What I said means that I, and others, might find it uncomfortable--in the same category as spanking or disciplining a child overtly. Hardly a fetish. And nowhere near "appalling or sexual"--I shudder to think of that.

 

[McKenna]

Most socially-oriented problems are. That a problem is "personal" doesn't make it invalid; someone could be masturbating, cussing, berating their child, spanking their child, etc. in public... having a preference for that happening in private is, essentially, a personal problem--but that doesn't, alone, make it insignificant.

Well, this isn't really a public forum, is it? More of an extremely open, private one. It has rules, it has ruling entities, it can enforce any subset of standards it wants, arbitrarily even, it isn't government controlled, etc.--as such, it is allowing things like my opinion (and encouraging them). So, I think I'm covered there. To use your analogy, if there were an extremely open, private place (park, playground, restaurants, stores, etc.) and women were allowed and encouraged to breast feed there... then there is no grounds for offense.

However, that we're talking about public spaces (effectively owned by the people, my taxes a part of that), my preference in the matter is meaningful. By no means is it the end all, I'm not going to ask a woman to stop, and I entirely understand the motivation behind doing it... I just think it should be handled in private, for the comfort of the rest of the public-space dwellers.

There isn't anything offensive or wrong about that.

You completely missed the point. Somehow, I'm not surprised.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by McKenna
You completely missed the point. Somehow, I'm not surprised.

Well, I am. (and please, no need to get personal or be rude; I'm not unintelligent, I'm not unresponsive to new ideas, I'm not irrational or stubborn about silly points, and my profession keeps me in the habit of entertaining new positions constantly)

If I'm missing the point, please help me get it.

You're drawing an analogy between my expressing my opinion here and women breastfeeding in public. You're saying that my opinion being expressed and a woman breastfeeding can be seen as offensive, and as I wouldn't deny my right to speak here I ought not deny their right to breastfeed in public...

...is that about right?

 

[McKenna]

What I said means that I, and others, might find it uncomfortable--in the same category as spanking or disciplining a child overtly. Hardly a fetish. And nowhere near "appalling or sexual"--I shudder to think of that.

It's your problem then Joe, you just admitted it, not the breast-feeding mother. It's your mentality that needs revision, even if it's nothing more than saying "ce la vie."

I'm appalled that you put breastfeeding in the same category as disciplining a child overtly. You intimate that it's something nasty and should be forbidden.

 

[McKenna]

Well, I am. (and please, no need to get personal or be rude; I'm not unintelligent, I'm not unresponsive to new ideas, I'm not irrational or stubborn about silly points, and my profession keeps me in the habit of entertaining new positions constantly)

If I'm missing the point, please help me get it.

You're drawing an analogy between my expressing my opinion here and women breastfeeding in public. You're saying that my opinion being expressed and a woman breastfeeding can be seen as offensive, and as I wouldn't deny my right to speak here I ought not deny their right to breastfeed in public...

...is that about right?

Very good, you got the analogy, (why not admit it in the first place?)

And if you're open to entertaining new positions, see my previous post. Your opinion and attitude are offensive to me. Doesn't mean I don't think you have a right to your opinion -I just think you're wrong.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by McKenna
It's your problem then Joe, you just admitted it, not the breast-feeding mother. It's your mentality that needs revision, even if it's nothing more than saying "ce la vie."

At what point did I say it was the mothers' problem? I'm looking back and I have made no such claim. I said that I, personally, am not into or comfortable with women breastfeeding their children in public. That it is something I am not into or comfortable with, yes, equates to it being my problem. But that its my problem doesn't mean that it lacks all merit or consideration.

My "mentality" may need a revision (sorry, I never liked that word, gets overused), but we can apply the same thing to any number of other problems. What about someone screaming in public? Perhaps I want quiet, my wanting that being a personal preference--my problem, not theirs... but does that mean that it should be disconsidered, just because its my problem and not theirs? Not necessarily.

Its a complicated issue. From the beginning, all I said was that I wasn't into it and I felt it should be handled privately. That's being neither rude nor domineering over motherhood or their choice to breastfeed--that's just preference. If you think something as small and unobstrusive as that preference is some great evil... I don't know that we can continue this conversation intelligently.

I'm appalled that you put breastfeeding in the same category as disciplining a child overtly. You intimate that it's something nasty and should be forbidden.

I'm appalled you think that disciplining a child overtly is nasty or forbidden.

Good Lord.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by McKenna
Very good, you got the analogy, (why not admit it in the first place?)

I did admit it. I think its inaccurate. My opinion in this place isn't comparable to breastfeeding in public because the nature of the places are different.

One is a place I agree to go to, privately controlled, and abide by certain rules and uses (rules and uses that allow the act--expressing opinion, for instance); one is a place I go to, publicly controlled, and abide by certain rules and uses (my preference in the matter being directly relavent by my "owning" it in part).

On the one hand, you can take offense to my having an opinion that isn't like yours--but it was expressed in a place where the terms told you that such a thing was going to happen. On the other hand, I can not be comfortable with a woman breastfeeding on the sidewalk--being subjected to it being a possible affront to my public rights.

The analogy is, I think, imperfect.

And if you're open to entertaining new positions, see my previous post. Your opinion and attitude are offensive to me. Doesn't mean I don't think you have a right to your opinion -I just think you're wrong.

That's fine. I don't expect everyone is going to agree with me, but I do have a right to have my opinion. My particular opinion doesn't hurt anyone or anything. My opinion doesn't deny a woman the right to breastfeed her child.

 

[Guest]

Joe, I'm finally past disappointment. Do you truly not understand why you get the best people on this board riled? Do you not have a better way of communicating than as a professional logician?

I swear you appear to be a troll when you throw out one-liners that upset people and then lasso them into your logic, vs. common discourse. It appears un-human to me, lacking good will and intent.

I won't argue with you about this. I do ask that you try to see yourself as others (the fucking majority here) see you. Perhaps some become rude or personally offensive because you make them act that way. It's not an excuse, but you need to begin to think you bring it on. If suddenly many people began being rude to me I would wonder about myself.

And finally, whether you like it or not, I do believe your age has something to do with all this. You are plainly immature in some very basic ways of being a man.

Perdita

 

[McKenna]

At what point did I say it was the mothers' problem? I'm looking back and I have made no such claim. I said that I, personally, am not into or comfortable with women breastfeeding their children in public. That it is something I am not into or comfortable with, yes, equates to it being my problem. But that its my problem doesn't mean that it lacks all merit or consideration.

My "mentality" may need a revision (sorry, I never liked that word, gets overused), but we can apply the same thing to any number of other problems. What about someone screaming in public? Perhaps I want quiet, my wanting that being a personal preference--my problem, not theirs... but does that mean that it should be disconsidered, just because its my problem and not theirs? Not necessarily.

Its a complicated issue. From the beginning, all I said was that I wasn't into it and I felt it should be handled privately. That's being neither rude nor domineering over motherhood or their choice to breastfeed--that's just preference. If you think something as small and unobstrusive as that preference is some great evil... I don't know that we can continue this conversation intelligently.



I'm appalled you think that disciplining a child overtly is nasty or forbidden.

Good Lord.

I took your previous statement to mean that punishing a child "with unnecessary force" (overtly) in public ... yadda yadda. I said nothing about not punishing a child at all.

Admitting your problem with breastfeeding in public is the first step to overcoming it, Joe. Well done.

Let me ask you this, what is your opinion based on? Your feeling of being uncomfortable with it? If a racist is uncomfortable around a black/hispanic/fillintheblank, does that make his opinion "right?" (For lack of a better word.) Doesn't mean he's less entitled to his opinion, it just makes him a little less tolerable in the world.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by perdita
Joe, I'm finally past disappointment. Do you truly not understand why you get the best people on this board riled? Do you not have a better way of communicating than as a professional logician?

I swear you appear to be a troll when you throw out one-liners that upset people and then lasso them into your logic, vs. common discourse. It appears un-human to me, lacking good will and intent.

I won't argue with you about this. I do ask that you try to see yourself as others (the fucking majority here) see you. Perhaps some become rude or personally offensive because you make them act that way. It's not an excuse, but you need to begin to think you bring it on. If suddenly many people began being rude to me I would wonder about myself.

And finally, whether you like it or not, I do believe your age has something to do with all this. You are plainly immature in some very basic ways of being a man.

Perdita

For the love of fucksake... I said I wasn't into women breastfeeding in public. That's it. I'm not pulling their blouses over their tits and snatching their babies away from their nipples. I'm not passing legislation to fine them.

I feel awkward when I see someone's Mom berate them in the checkout line at the grocery store. I also feel awkward when I see someone breastfeeding in public. Neither of those things mean I'm some kinda devil trying to fuck over womankind, neither do they mean that I'm sexually repressed or anything like that.

Just not comfortable. Fucking sue me.

If people here are bound to get bent out of shape because someone doesn't happen to two the party line, yeah... maybe I should be careful about what I say (and I DO try). But, at the same time, if people are going to get bent out of shape because someone simply doesn't believe something they do--and simply says as much, maybe that's awful telling.

You want to blame my age, fine. I can't stop you. Its a copout. Twenty-three year olds aren't the only people with my opinion, they aren't. I'm not even the only person on Lit with my opinion. And I'm certainly not the only person on the AH with my opinion. Maybe people should fucking relax and stop being so narrow minded.

 

[McKenna]

...snip... On the one hand, you can take offense to my having an opinion that isn't like yours--but it was expressed in a place where the terms told you that such a thing was going to happen. On the other hand, I can not be comfortable with a woman breastfeeding on the sidewalk--being subjected to it being a possible affront to my public rights.

"Being subjected to?!" I just don't get it Joe, I just don't see what is so offensive about breast-feeding a baby. Your word choice still implies that it is something "dirty," that by exposing you to it, a breast-feeding mother is somehow abusing you, when if fact it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by McKenna
Admitting your problem with breastfeeding in public is the first step to overcoming it, Joe. Well done.

"Well done"... that's a little... condescending. I'd appreciate it if we'd avoid that. I won't make "Good girl, you see that punishing children isn't an appalling act" comments, we'll be square. Even if it wasn't your intention to come across that way, no harm in my mentioning it.

Let me ask you this, what is your opinion based on? Your feeling of being uncomfortable with it? If a racist is uncomfortable around a black/hispanic/fillintheblank, does that make his opinion "right?" (For lack of a better word.) Doesn't mean he's less entitled to his opinion, it just makes him a little less tolerable in the world.

My opinion is based on what I find I'm comfortable with and not comfortable with. Its kinda like asking "why don't you like the taste of spinach?". The answer may well be only as deep as "I just don't". As for the racist correlation, are they "right"? Not necessarily, are they "wrong"? Also not necessarily. More information is needed in any case.

 

[McKenna]

..... Maybe people should fucking relax and stop being so narrow minded.

WTF?! Pot calling the kettle black?!

Perhaps, Joe, you should take your own advice. I'm done discussing this with you, as you obviously are not open to "entertaining a new position" rationally.

 

[Guest]

Joe, that was a very uninteresting response. My post was made here only coincidentally. It had nothing to do with your opinions on breasts or breastfeeding. I was trying to point out something more profound to you personally. I will give up on it now.

Perdita

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by McKenna
WTF?! Pot calling the kettle black?!

I'm not telling or implying to anyone, no matter how much I disagree with them, that they should stop expressing their opinion, McKenna. THAT is narrow minded.

Perhaps, Joe, you should take your own advice. I'm done discussing this with you, as you are obviously not open to "entertaining a new position" rationally.

Look, you asked questions and I answered. We were actually getting somewhere, and now you want to say I'm not being rational? Why? What about "I have an opinion" isn't rational? I never said it was right, I never said it couldn't change, and I never said I failed to understand your position--as I entirely do and admitted as much.

 

[Guest]

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by perdita
Joe, that was a very uninteresting response. My post was made here only coincidentally. It had nothing to do with your opinions on breasts or breastfeeding. I was trying to point out something more profound to you personally. I will give up on it now.

Perdita

You seem to be saying that I should consider the majority of the people here--and that they don't agree with a great many things I say. You seem to be saying that I should censor myself up, my opinions and all, to appease those who are here. You also seem to be saying that I'm somehow undeveloped as a man because of these things.

I get your point. I also don't agree with it. But I fear that arguing with it at all--even if I'm right, even if I do so politely--is only going to be met with "your arguing proves my point" or other such nonsense.

If you've made up your mind about those things, I can't do anything about it. But I think you're wrong, I have good reasons why, and I feel you're being close-minded and entirely unfair about those opinions and labels.

 

[Guest]

I said I wasn't into women breastfeeding in public.

Joe, for a not unintelligent person, you can be incredibly dense at times. Get some savvy boyo.

For ease of understanding, on your part, I have highlighted in bold text the contentious word for, I believe, most of us in this thread.

To me/us, being "into" something implies having an interest/curiosity/kink/fetish/whatever (and, no, I am not only talking about sexual matters here) toward something. For you to say you are not "into" it implies, for one thing, that others are, and for another, that you find something about breastfeeding objectionable.

Were you breastfed, Joe? If so, did your Mum lock herself away for the first six months/year of your life?

The only people who find some kind of discomfort in seeing a woman breastfeed her baby are those who think in a pre-pubescent way. I didn't want to stoop to mentioning your age, either, but really, Joe, start acting and talking like a man - which is in fact what many your own age can do with ease.

I was being flippant earlier in the thread, but you just didn't get it, did you?

Lou

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Tatelou
For you to say you are not "into" it implies, for one thing, that others are, and for another, that you find something about breastfeeding objectionable.

Surely.

Were you breastfed, Joe? If so, did your Mum lock herself away for the first six months/year of your life?

I was breastfed. I suspect it also happened in public, sometimes.

The only people who find some kind of discomfort in seeing a woman breastfeed her baby are those who think in a pre-pubescent way.

That's not necessarily true. Just because someone is uncomfortable with something doesn't mean its because they're being childish. That's both unfair and not easily justified. There are people that are uncomfortable with public displays of affection because it makes them feel lonely, as an example. Breastfeeding may be objectionable to only the child-minded, but that's not necessarily true. Possible, but not necessarily true.

I didn't want to stoop to mentioning your age, either, but really, Joe, start acting and talking like a man - which is in fact what many your own age can do with ease.

What about expressing an opinion lacks manhood?

I didn't feel the need to comment on the personal shit.

 

[Guest]