On Breastfeeding, Rights, and Good Manners

[amicus]

JoeW said:

"I'll be voting Kerry, as payment... and, as a bonus, I will say that Bush's daughters are drunken whores and nowhere near as attractive as Gore's kids."


You have once again displayed your wet behind the ears youth and insensitivity to proper decorum....

For any father who has daughters to read what you so casually toss off as humor about the Presidents children...

You should apologize to this forum and to all who read your filth.

amicus...


you could edit and remove those remarks...of course, along with the apology, if you are man enough...




__________________

 

[Guest]

Pat pat pat

 

[EmeraldKitten]

I don't get offended if a woman is in public breastfeeding her baby.
Sometimes it shocks me though, for the simple reason that I'd never pop a tit out and feed my kid in public.
(Don't mind the AV, LOL.)
I guess I can't understand why a woman would want to do so in view of the public eye.

~K

 

[Guest]

I guess I can't understand why a woman would want to do so in view of the public eye.

~K

Because the child is hungry (at that particular inconvenient moment).

And because there is usually no other place to go.

Not many businesses have areas where moms can nurse in clean, comfortable privacy.

 

[EmeraldKitten]

Because the child is hungry (at that particular inconvenient moment).

And because there is usually no other place to go.

Not many businesses have areas where moms can nurse in clean, comfortable privacy.

That's very true. And actually, I haven't encountered tons and tons of mommies feeding their babies in public. Hmm. Wonder where they're hiding? lol.

 

[shereads]

JoeW said:

"I'll be voting Kerry, as payment... and, as a bonus, I will say that Bush's daughters are drunken whores and nowhere near as attractive as Gore's kids."


You have once again displayed your wet behind the ears youth and insensitivity to proper decorum....

For any father who has daughters to read what you so casually toss off as humor about the Presidents children...

You should apologize to this forum and to all who read your filth.

amicus...

C'mon, Smoove A. The man is making a joke, as you will know by his AV. And it won't harm the Bush twins because they won't see it. Cut him some slack. It's not as if he were Rush Limbaugh, who branded Chelsea Clinton "the White House dog" on national television when she was 13 years old and new to public life. Or even the saintly John McCain who made jokes about the girl's looks at a fundraiser.

That was inexcusable because it was intended to publicly humiliate a child. I hope you wrote to Rush and the senator to let them both know how tasteless and cruel their actions were.

FYI, I'm not defending Joe's joke because I dislike the Bush twins. On the contrary, one of them is said to have semi-liberal feminist political views, and to have been mad as hell when her father did a televised imitation of Carla Faye Tucker begging for her life on Larry King's show. I like that girl. I still think Joe has a right to make a joke about her, especially when it's so clear that he's in love and/or lust with her.

 

[herecomestherain]

You're having coffee with a friend in a cafe, you have a sleeping infant who awakes and wants to be fed.

Option One.
You say goodbye to the friend, pack up your belongings, negotiate the path to the toilets, squeeze the stroller with your handbag and other effects into the space, take the infant into the "restroom" and try and find somewhere to sit and feed. If yo u happen to have another child with you they will have left their uneaten food etc and had to accompany you to the said restroom. If there is no restroom, take the now screaming infant, whinging child, harrassed mother, and belongings, pay the check and go sit in the car and feed.

Option Two.
Alternative, open your nursing bra, pop the infant to your breast, continue your conversation, second child is happy with their snack, infant is nourished, mother is happy having a conversation with another adult. The world is sweet.

Option Three.
Stay at home because you've chosen to breastfeed your baby, become isolated, get depressed.

 

[SeaCat]

Rude, or "unacceptably rude?!"

Isn't it rude when a man grabs his balls in public? Or hawks a loogee and spits in public? Or farts, belches, or tells off-color jokes? **

Isn't that rude?! Quite frankly I'd rather see the most blatantly obvious beast-feeding in public rather than any of the above, but noooo... breastfeeding is now "rude." To which I say, hogwash.

I've been around nursing mothers all my life. If I'm uncomfortable, it's my issue, not theirs. I've never been around a woman who breastfeeds her baby in a "rude" manner. Usually there is a blanket or part of the shirt covering the nipple- but even if it wasn't, what'st he big freaking deal?! It's a breast, for God's sake!

For some reason this topic reminds me of the Janet Jackson tit fiasco. It's just a tit people! But somehow I'm supposed to be ashamed because I have them? Because they symbolize in some people's mind something nasty and dirty from which small children and innocent victims should be protected? Again I say, hogwash.

I fully intend to breastfeed any babies I'm blessed with; for the most part, due to my own shy nature, I will most-likely breast feed as inconspicuosly as possible, but I'm not going to hide the fact that I'm breast feeding and I'm not going to be ashamed because I'm doing it. And yes, if I'm stuck in an airplane with a fussy baby who just won't quiet down, you can damn well bet I'll be breast-feeding said baby right there in coach class rather than squeeze my way down an aisle and squeeze into the small lavatory just to feed my baby. Ridiculous. The laws don't need revision, the way we think does.


**(No, the last four items aren't exclusive to male behavior, but men do tend to do them more than women.) [/B]

Mckenna,

In your way you are making a point I have been trying to make for most of my life. By legislating the breast feeding of children they are trying to legislate what is indecent. They, (They being those in charge in one way or another,) are trying to push their moral values on the rest of us. What is indecent or offensive should first be decided. The Church has decided onit's own that nudity, or anything dealing with nudity is indecent and offensive. this includes the exposure of breasts. Thereforeaccod=rding to those who follow this doctrine, any exposure of breasts, no matter the reason, is indecent and offensive. (They say nothing about three hundred pound women in Thongs or Spandex indecent or offensive. On the other hand I find this to be offensive, not indecent, just offensive.)

Some people find Male Genitalia offensive, while saying nothing of Female Genitalia. What's wrong with this picture?

Let's face it, In the United States of America we have a strange and I believe sick society. Many people here believe that nudity, partial nudity, or even dressing provacatively is asking for sex. (Look at too many of the rape defenses here. "Oh she was dressed in a mini skirt and tight top, she was just asking for sex.") Taken this way can you at least understand why people would be uncomfortable with the idea of breast feeding in public? Americans are led to believe from birth that the showing of a breast for any reason is wanton behavior. When they see it in conection with the feeding and care of a child they just don't know what to feel. It bothers them. So don't attack Joe because of how he feels on this. It is ingrained from his birth.

We can look at this in another fashion. If overnight the wholeworld lost it's clothes, how would you react? Most people outside of the Orient would stay locked indoors. There are very few westerners who would be comfortable with this, and the few who were would be branded as perverts. (We're not even looking at exhibitionism or public sex here.) Would you, your family members, your friends and neighbors be comfortable walking down the street wearing nothing but your skin? Most people if they were honest would have to answer no.

Joe W.'s reaction, along with many others is of the same kind. (This is not directed just at you by the way, but at the many who have reacted to Joe's posts.) I personaly don't agree with him, but I do understand where he is coming from. He, and many others here are but a product of our societies. (There are a couple here who I believe would be comfortable going out in publc nude when no-one else was wearing anything, but there aren't many.)

Oh and by the way, this is not meant as an attack on you. You just happened to make the most logical, common sense replies to Joe.

Cat

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by amicus
JoeW said:

"I'll be voting Kerry, as payment... and, as a bonus, I will say that Bush's daughters are drunken whores and nowhere near as attractive as Gore's kids."


You have once again displayed your wet behind the ears youth and insensitivity to proper decorum....

For any father who has daughters to read what you so casually toss off as humor about the Presidents children...

You should apologize to this forum and to all who read your filth.

amicus...


you could edit and remove those remarks...of course, along with the apology, if you are man enough...




__________________

If it will make you feel better, consider myself in formal apology about the "drunken whore" section of the post. However, I maintain that Al and Tipper make gorgeous children and I prefer them, on strictly appearances, to the Bush twins.

That better?

Incidentally, insensitivity is not strictly a youthful trait--so can the "youthful" stuff.

 

[McKenna]

Seacat, I appreciate your comments.

To sum up anything I've said today, it's this: We, as a society, need to change the way we think about breastfeeding. It's not indecent. It's natural. Nothing will change -including Joe (or anyone's feeling) that it's indecent and therefore makes anyone uncomfortable if we keep perpetuating the myth that breast feeding is indecent. It's not.

We all had to learn to be politically correct. I'm sure we can all learn how to view breastfeeding in public as something "natural." It requires a conscious effort, but it can be done. And it may be that THIS generation will never see it as acceptable; however, if they continue to be conscious of it being "okay," their children might just view it as okay, and teach the same to their children and so on and so on until it becomes more normal to see a woman breastfeeding in public than the opposite.

If I "attacked" Joe, I was only giving as good as I got. Doesn't make me right, doesn't make me better, just pointing out the obvious. I walked away from a "discussion" that was going nowhere. Joe is entitled to his opinion just as much as you or me are entitled to the same, and I will fight to the death for the right to have and express an opinion. I don't agree with his. I believe I've made that abundantly clear.

I'm usually the type to sit back and not stir the waters too much here. That's me. But once in a while I've got to stand up for something, or I'll be seen as just another placating, mindless contributor, and I don't want that. Breastfeeding in public is natural, it's not indecent. It's not porn, it's not a fetish, it's not anything other than the feeding of a baby. I'm taking a stand on this, because I can, because I feel it's important enough to step out of my comfort zone and comment.

I don't see breastfeeding as something "provacative" or somehow the woman asking for sex. I think the people who think that have a problem, not the woman breastfeeding. It's that very mentality that needs to change, not the laws regarding breastfeeding in public.

All I'm doing is saying the same things I've said earlier, so I'll stop. Just because I'll fight for Joe's right to express and opinion or any woman's right to breast feed in public does not mean that I, myself, would do the same. It just means I believe in preserving the freedoms and rights afforded us as Americans, and that includes anyone's right to be an ass if they want to, myself included.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I suppose a summation out of me isn't entirely inappropriate. Simply put, we as a society need to define better the grounds for unacceptable and acceptable. The reasons being that if something is justified only as far as "I know it when I see it", that leads to insubstantial arguments and unfair policies ranging from "art museums can't have naked people" to "women have primary claim to the kids in divorce". Without clear demarcation, there can be no real justification.

I have no idea whether breastfeeding in public is acceptable or not. I haven't argued acceptability, only personal comfort. It could be that it is natural, and therefore perfectly acceptable. Then again, pissing is natural... so is sex... so is nudity... so is, arguably, violence. Natural does not equate, it seems, to acceptable. Careful work must be done, careful arguments must be build, and careful justifications must be maintained to turn society's conception of breastfeeding away from "keep it private".

It is surely possible to do that, but like any social problem with legal complications... its going to be reason that holds the solution, not dogma.

If I rubbed people the wrong way, I was only stating the obvious. I am not unique, my opinion isn't either. That, alone, makes it worth a study--not a backlash. If enough people believe something, finding out why is a good start. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and not all opinions are correct--some are vibrantly wrong or harmful. It is neither a sin nor a crime to show someone the error in their opinion... but doing so is an act of patience and reason, question and analysis. Diplomacy has its merits, and as long as all parties are open to the possibility of being wrong, it may be the most effective communication tool across opinion-gaps we have.

Concerning breastfeeding, specifically. Like it or not, its far from univerally acceptable a practice in public. The rub comes in that very few people, I think, are willing to say "the government should be able to make a private store allow it"... but given that public places are "privately owned by the people", they (collectively) shouldn't be made to endure it either. Such is the nature of voting, I suppose.

Should work be done to change enough minds that its publicly allowable? I don't know. I would say, honestly, that if the demarcation between unacceptable and acceptable were rational and clear enough to allow "breastfeeding" and disallow things like "sex, smoking, urinating, etc." then that could be a good idea. Simply "its natural" is going to cause legal complications with other "unacceptable" things.

People can rail against me about demanding too much out of definitions or assertions, about overanalysing meanings and the like. But, rest assured, that's exactly what's going to happen with issues like these if we expect them to actually undergo any change or serious legal, political, social discussion.

 

[Belegon]

Rhinippleman, you're like a Shakespearean fool. That's a compliment.

Perdita

...and featuring Will Kemp as Rhinoguy....

 

[TheEarl]

Just thought I'd jump on the 'defend Joe' bandwagon. Joe does say stupid things on occasion (Sorry mate, but it's true), that do get a lot of people riled up. He is also young. But the two don't necessarily correlate.

I'm younger than Joe by three years. I say stupid things on occasion. Was looking back over my PMs when clearing my inbox and found a collection of them relating to a time when I said several stupid things in a short space of time, when my sarky humour didn't transfer to text very well and I accidentally insulted and offended at least three members of the board. Did anyone mention I was young? Are my occasional stupid comments and outre viewpoints because I'm only twenty?

Please don't patronise either of us by saying or intimating that we are incapable of debate or cannot understand a situation fully because of our youth. Call us wankers, say we're idiots, I couldn't care. But don't tell us we don't understand because we're young.

Cf my one brief lapse into Lit poetry for more info.

Disappointed in some people.

The Earl

 

[SensualCealy]

After reading most of Joe's comments on this thread, I think I could hazard a guess as to what's going on in his head.

If he saw a woman nursing openly in public he wouldn't know how to feel (not cutting you down man, just keep reading). Would he be nervous, embarased, arroused, or even yet jealous?

Like someone said (sorry there were so many points made, I loss track) seeing a baby nursing can be a turn on for some guys, and why not, men seem to love sucking nips, were they taken from the breast too soon? lol

Seeing someone openly nursing can catch people off guard and can make them nervous in a situation they have never been in or feel uncomfortable being in. My father in law is very much this way. He had never saw a woman breast feed until his neice started, then it was my turn. It was funny, he would leave the room everytime Id slip the kids under my shirt. Now that didn't bother me, I could stand the break of dealing with him! lol

Being embarased can come from seeing skin and thinking to yourself, OMG she has huge great looking breasts! Then you quickly remove your gaze from her chest and try to carry on with what ever it is you were doing, like carrying on a conversation without looking back when you know you want to.

I guess the arroused part was covered in my previous babble. Jealous, who wouldnt want to get a glimps or a suck if they had the chance? lol

Things that use to be so natural were taken away by those who thought bottle feeding was better for the children. As long as the mother has a balanced diet and stays away from extra curriculars, nursing is better infact.

my two cents worth
sc

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

SweetSubsarahh,
I am afraid that YOU do not understand ME. if you are throwing me and eveyother man on LIT into the non understanding catagory.

No - that wasn't my intention. Lit men are exceptional.

I am NOT suggesting breastfeeding women are "looking for sex"...I AM saying there are bystanders who ARE.

Tits are functional...the ARE also sexual.
PENISES rae functional..also sexual
VAginas are functional...also sexual
ASSes are functional...also sexual
SKIN is functional...also sexual...
the mind is functional (well mostly)..also.....

when i pee i am not thinking of sex*. someone else at the stall next to me might.

when a woman gives birth she is not thinking of sex**....an orderly pasing by Might.

when taking a shit you aren't thinking of sex***...but when you bend over your husband might.

when doing your taxes you aren't thinking of sex...but....

*(exceptions..."why does it burn? maybe i caught something"...or "man, this thing is huge!"..."WHOOOaH that was a great urgasm!")

** (exceptions..."That is the lats time i let you near me!")

*** (exceptions..."damn..he really pounded my ass last night!")

Um - yeah! I completely agree!

(Excellent post, even though I can't quite stop laughing!)

 

[Guest]

um...THIS guy!? I wish! I'm more like UNkempt

No, Will Kemp was a leading comic actor with Shakespeare's company, The Chamberlain's Men. He played many a great fool. He died in 1603.

Perdita

 

[shereads]

the mind is functional (well mostly)

 

[shereads]

I suppose a summation out of me isn't entirely inappropriate. Simply put, we as a society need to define better the grounds for unacceptable and acceptable. The reasons being that if something is justified only as far as "I know it when I see it", that leads to insubstantial arguments and unfair policies ranging from "art museums can't have naked people" to "women have primary claim to the kids in divorce". Without clear demarcation, there can be no real justification.

I have no idea whether breastfeeding in public is acceptable or not. I haven't argued acceptability, only personal comfort. It could be that it is natural, and therefore perfectly acceptable. Then again, pissing is natural... so is sex... so is nudity... so is, arguably, violence. Natural does not equate, it seems, to acceptable. Careful work must be done, careful arguments must be build, and careful justifications must be maintained to turn society's conception of breastfeeding away from "keep it private".

It is surely possible to do that, but like any social problem with legal complications... its going to be reason that holds the solution, not dogma.

If I rubbed people the wrong way, I was only stating the obvious. I am not unique, my opinion isn't either. That, alone, makes it worth a study--not a backlash. If enough people believe something, finding out why is a good start. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and not all opinions are correct--some are vibrantly wrong or harmful. It is neither a sin nor a crime to show someone the error in their opinion... but doing so is an act of patience and reason, question and analysis. Diplomacy has its merits, and as long as all parties are open to the possibility of being wrong, it may be the most effective communication tool across opinion-gaps we have.

Concerning breastfeeding, specifically. Like it or not, its far from univerally acceptable a practice in public. The rub comes in that very few people, I think, are willing to say "the government should be able to make a private store allow it"... but given that public places are "privately owned by the people", they (collectively) shouldn't be made to endure it either. Such is the nature of voting, I suppose.

Should work be done to change enough minds that its publicly allowable? I don't know. I would say, honestly, that if the demarcation between unacceptable and acceptable were rational and clear enough to allow "breastfeeding" and disallow things like "sex, smoking, urinating, etc." then that could be a good idea. Simply "its natural" is going to cause legal complications with other "unacceptable" things.

People can rail against me about demanding too much out of definitions or assertions, about overanalysing meanings and the like. But, rest assured, that's exactly what's going to happen with issues like these if we expect them to actually undergo any change or serious legal, political, social discussion.

Well said.

 

[herecomestherain]

I still think it's sad that we even consider the notion of breastfeeding as a "social problem".

Salon

Salon 2

Would we need any legal pontification on the subject at all if we just embraced the idea of women breastfeeding their babies where and when they need to? Could we live with our momentary discomfort? Could we understand what it means to be humane and tolerant and generous? Could we create a little peace wherever we go instead of antagonism? What's the alternative?

No I haven't been smoking...

I believe that the comparison of breastfeeding with acts of excretion such as urinating or defecating or perhaps even expectorating is not entirely accurate. Human breastmilk is secreted to nourish an infant. It is not the by-product of some other bodily function. It isn't "waste". It's food.

 

[McKenna]

I still think it's sad that we even consider the notion of breastfeeding as a "social problem".

Salon

Salon 2

Would we need any legal pontification on the subject at all if we just embraced the idea of women breastfeeding their babies where and when they need to? Could we live with our momentary discomfort? Could we understand what it means to be humane and tolerant and generous? Could we create a little peace wherever we go instead of antagonism? What's the alternative?

No I haven't been smoking...

I believe that the comparison of breastfeeding with acts of excretion such as urinating or defecating or perhaps even expectorating is not entirely accurate. Human breastmilk is secreted to nourish an infant. It is not the by-product of some other bodily function. It isn't "waste". It's food.

Well said.

 

[redrider4u]

Ok......think about this

(both my daughters were breast fed)

But, for the sake of argument.......



Say a mom is breast feeding in starbucks.........

and a guy walks up.......and says......


"nice tits lady, I need some milk in my latta"

Now what is the societal response?

 

[TheEarl]

Punch him.

No wiat, that's a neanderthal, knee-jerk reaction. Call me over. I'll punch him for you.

I am, after all, a gentleman.

The Earl

 

[redrider4u]

Punch him.

No wiat, that's a neanderthal, knee-jerk reaction. Call me over. I'll punch him for you.

I am, after all, a gentleman.

The Earl

you are correct, dammit, I forgot to mention that he does not want cream in his milk........*slapping head*

Breastfeeding tip: On our first daughter, oh, perhaps a month or so after her birth, we ordered a pepperoni, sausage and onion pizza. Well, the onions went through my wife and into the baby. Talk about an upset infant........the moral of the story...order moderate pizzas while breastfeeding........